F1 2009 megathread

[92 white 0650]

Re: Rumor has it

If I were a part of the FOTA, I'd schedule races on the same tracks as F1.....

You read Phil Huff or just an obvious logical observation? :wink: Either way, he's heard rumors from reliable sources (which are usually pretty good) that there very well may be F-1 (style) racing at Silverstone and Montreal next year. Since we know that's not in Bernie's schedule, the FOTA is bolstering their walkaway position by actually negotiating with these tracks or at least spreading rumors. I think they're actually negotiating. Game on.

 

[Ponyboy]

Re: Rumor has it

You read Phil Huff or just an obvious logical observation? :wink: Either way, he's heard rumors from reliable sources (which are usually pretty good) that there very well may be F-1 (style) racing at Silverstone and Montreal next year. Since we know that's not in Bernie's schedule, the FOTA is bolstering their walkaway position by actually negotiating with these tracks or at least spreading rumors. I think they're actually negotiating. Game on.

Hahaha...no, I haven't read Phil Huff...yet. But having a race on the same tracks as F1 a week before the F1 race would totally let the air out of the F1 balloon. Silverstone, Montreal, Fuji...jeez, there are a bunch of suitable tracks out that Max and Bernie have pissed off.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Posey's Perspective

I really hope Sam Posey does his piece this weekend on this whole legal/organizational circus. I'd really like to hear how he describes it and couches it in the history of F-1 development and rule changes.

$hit, I'm tempted to cancel my Sunday race just to sit and soak up the up to the minute $hit-stirring as it happens on the Sunday morning broadcast. F-1 Twittering will be wild.

Who knows, maybe Peter Windsor is already dreaming of a few podiums next year in Bernie's "new all freshmen" F-1.

 

[docjohn]

i'd love to see an F1 something get back to its American roots,aka a watkins glen race!:smile:

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: OMG

FOTA fires the torpedo.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76292

This is gonna get ugly.

 

[CKS Papa]

Re: OMG

FOTA fires the torpedo.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76292

This is gonna get ugly.

Can't wait for Max's response to this torpedo.

If this does happen and FOTA plans on not racing F1 next season,
what happens to the FOTA teams for the rest of this season?
Will Bernie and Max let these teams race this season without any repercussions?

 

[Ponyboy]

If past performance is any indicator of future actions, Max and Bernie will do everything possible to weaken the FOTA. And that means screwing FOTA as much as possible.

I wish I was a lawyer employed by the FOTA...cuz I'd make millions.

 

[Liquid]

Definitely a huge distraction... hopefully the Killer B's keep their eye on the ball this weekend.

 

[nsx2tall]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if 8 of 10 teams want to bail on the FIA (for whatever reason) the only thing the FIA has left is lawyers. They can't really save themselves, they can only attempt to sink the FOTA ship. Having a governing body for sport is a good idea, but when it disengages with participant needs, it is doomed. I think the FIA has an inflated sense of it's own worth and will need to make big compromises soon if it is to survive.

 

[lightguy]

Re: LeMans to host a breakaway series?

Anyone know how this idea would work?

The ACO (?) that runs the LeMans series has offered to take in what may be the orphaned FOTA or remnants thereof. Sounds good at today's current level of hysteria, but a few questions pop up.

Do they now have at least 80% of the organization needed to run a breakaway series? How would that work if they only have, what, 5 races besides the 24 hours? Would they be able to spool up to get another 10 + venues for a reasonable # of races?

I'm assuming the ACO would run separate races as mixing in with the current LeMans cars who are running much longer races would be too much of a culture change (and safety risk?) for F-1 cars. Would the schedules allow for both series to share the track and run the same weekends? FOTA would probably say no?

Interesting proposition and the FOTA, if they are "down the road" after Friday, will have a lot of tough choices to make. So who knows what they may be forced to accept.

Tougher than old Bernie/Max's choices? Another topic for another day. :wink:

ACO backing FOTA is great news and crucial to the breakaway.
TV rights are another hurdle. That is the lifeblood of F1.
As it is now FOM/CVC gets @50% and the teams split the rest. An absurd split as the teams provide the show. Not some bloated corporate pigs. ( although them wrestling between themselves for the remnants of their series would provide some hilarity).

 

[lightguy]

If past performance is any indicator of future actions, Max and Bernie will do everything possible to weaken the FOTA. And that means screwing FOTA as much as possible.

I wish I was a lawyer employed by the FOTA...cuz I'd make millions.

Ferrari has been the weak link in the past willing to sell the future of F1 down the river for their immediate needs and special treatment. FIA has offered them an out saying they are contracually bound.

Williams and Farce India are all that FIA F1 really have. And hopes and dreams from others.
I think Windsors US F1 team is rethinking its position after he interviewed Toyota's Howett during Speed's coverage of Silverstone practice.
I understand LOLA may have backed out as well.

FOTA is the real deal and gathering support of the Sponsors, Manufacturers, and Fans.
GO FOTA !!!

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: FIA; no paper tiger

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if 8 of 10 teams want to bail on the FIA (for whatever reason) the only thing the FIA has left is lawyers. They can't really save themselves, they can only attempt to sink the FOTA ship. Having a governing body for sport is a good idea, but when it disengages with participant needs, it is doomed. I think the FIA has an inflated sense of it's own worth and will need to make big compromises soon if it is to survive.

OK, here's my 2 cents from what I learned back in 2005 when the last split was threatened. I did a lot of wondering about the FIA and FOM's strange control on F-1 and here's what I concluded.

F-1 racing is only one small part of the FIA, so although they possibly should be, the FIA is not doomed for its F-1 sins. The FIA is a surprisingly huge organization that has developed services and control in places and ways that boggle the mind. They have essentially gained a stranglehold on worldwide racing and therefore cannot be dismissed lightly. I don't have a handy cocktail summary of why and how but Varsha and the guys alluded to it today on the practice broadcast. The FIA can essentially "ban" tracks that hosts the FOTA as well as make life miserable for racers seeking licenses if they have even think about FOTA. They and FOM provide a huge support service to make F-1 happen and the FOTA needs them just as much as FOM needs the teams. In a split, the FOTA will lose, and the FOM will lose; the FIA? not so much.

This is not SCCA. Since it's a business, not a sport, there is just too much that goes on behind the scenes to make professional racing happen. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but like world markets and politics, the real story is beyond the comprehension of the average layperson.

 

[lightguy]

Re: FIA; no paper tiger

The FIA can essentially "ban" tracks that hosts the FOTA as well as make life miserable for racers seeking licenses if they have even think about FOTA. They and FOM provide a huge support service to make F-1 happen and the FOTA needs them just as much as FOM needs the teams. In a split, the FOTA will lose, and the FOM will lose; the FIA? not so much.

This is why ACO is critical to FOTA. A proven established sanctioning body.
FIA's stranglehold on drivers and tracks may not stand the test of courts in countries with Anti-Monopoly laws. And there are LOTS of tracks that have an axe to grind with BernieMax. Indy, Silverstone, and Montreal come to mind.

Once the breakaway series proves it can maintain I'm confident FIA will come around. F1 is their money maker.

The TV $$$ is what feeds the commercial end of F1.
The teams have a different priority. If they happen to bag the $$$, as will be, that will grease over a lot of problems.

 

[NSXrebel]

Re: FIA; no paper tiger

This is why ACO is critical to FOTA. A proven established sanctioning body.
FIA's stranglehold on drivers and tracks may not stand the test of courts in countries with Anti-Monopoly laws. And there are LOTS of tracks that have an axe to grind with BernieMax. Indy, Silverstone, and Montreal come to mind.

Once the breakaway series proves it can maintain I'm confident FIA will come around. F1 is their money maker.

The TV $$$ is what feeds the commercial end of F1.
The teams have a different priority. If they happen to bag the $$$, as will be, that will grease over a lot of problems.

The EU has a lot of antitrust laws. Even as big as the FIA is, I don't think they would go against the EU by banning tracks and what not. It would be suicidal for them to do so.

 

[Jetpilot3]

Re: OMG

FOTA fires the torpedo.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76292

This is gonna get ugly.

VERY UGLY.

I'm sure this has caught everyone by surprise!!! I can't believe FOTA had the ballz to step up to the FIA and Bernie and go their own way.

Its about time that the teams did their own race series benefitting by their own investment (teams, factories, windtunnels, etc.) by receiving some marketing and TV revenue. Such a fantastic day!

In terms of tracks and marketing TV viewership you'll see Canada, US, Silverstone, and others come walking into the doors of FOTA for sure. The car manufacturers biggest market is NA and with the FIAT group now owning a substantial part of Chrysler (Intention is there to bring FIAT product into NA via Chrysler cars - smaller) you bet your bottom dollar someone in Maranello is already talking to Ferrari F1...

Like someone else above said if F1 loses the big 8 teams then at the end of the day all they have are their lawyers, albeit very well paid ones.

I'll be at the Abu Dhabi GP...I wonder if this will be the last F1 race or F1 race in that brand or with these teams?!?!

 

[Miner]

I remember a discussion on ESPN when the CART / IRL split was first happening; I believe it was Dave Despain (or possibly Bob Varsha) observing the IRL had the Indianapolis 500 and that was an incredible piece of leverage in their favor. Ultimately the obervation proved right.

FOTA has Ferrari and (if they stay the course) will win the war. The FIA is a sanctioning body, but not the only sanctioning body. Perhaps Brian France (NASCAR) will step in and sanction the FOTA. Just food for thought.

Miner

 

[lightguy]

Killer acticle;

Why F1 future may spin out of control

Analysis
By Theo Leggett
Business reporter, BBC News




Lewis Hamilton's McLaren team is among those that may break away
On the eve of the British Grand Prix, one of the oldest and best loved events on its calendar, the glamorous world of Formula One motor racing is in turmoil.

Eight of the ten teams, including Ferrari and the Brawn GP team of championship leader Jenson Button have announced plans to set up a rival championship.

Yet Formula One is as popular as it is ever been, attracting a huge television audience. So what has gone wrong?

Well, fundamentally, it is about business, not sport.

The catalyst has certainly been the global economic downturn with the Honda team's decision to leave Formula One last year sending shivers through the series.

It pulled out because its sales had fallen dramatically and it could no longer justify spending hundreds of millions of dollars a year on racing.



The threat is a potentially expensive headache for Bernie Ecclestone
That prompted fears other carmakers could follow - leaving millions of television viewers watching just a handful of cars.

Revenue row

Motor racing's governing body, the FIA, responded with a package of proposals to cut costs dramatically. It included plans to limit F1 budgets to $60m (£36.6m).

This went down badly with teams who until recently were spending close to $500m a season. They also objected to plans to limit their technical freedom.

But while the row over how far costs need to be cut and how to do it may have triggered off the dispute, it is emphatically not the main issue.


Both parties will be weakened if this happens and someone else will gain

Chris Aylett
Motorsports Industry Association
The real argument, which has been simmering for years, is about how the sport is run and what happens to its commercial revenues.

While the teams compete in F1, and the governing body makes the rules, the commercial side is looked after by the Formula One Group.

These companies are run by Bernie Ecclestone and are majority owned by private equity group CVC Capital Partners.

The group makes close to $1bn a year from television rights, trackside advertising, and the large fees it charges racetracks for the right to host Grands Prix.

But only half of this money comes back into the sport as payments to the teams; the rest goes into the coffers of the F1 Group.

According to the independent F1 financial guide Formula Money, much of it is used to repay debts run up by CVC when it bought its stake in F1.



Will the drivers be celebrating a breakaway group?
The teams are privately questioning why they are being asked to cut costs so dramatically when a great deal of revenue is going out of the sport.

They are also concerned at the way in which they say the FIA is trying to impose its will on them and ignoring their wishes.

Fan split

The FIA insists it has to act tough to prevent F1 turning into a "financial arms race".

So does their threat to create a new series hold water?

Yes it does, according to Chris Aylett, chief executive of the Motorsports Industry Association.

"These are companies of high repute. Some of them are large multinational organisations. And this is a pretty big card to play".




This is bad news for the debt holders. In fact it doesn't get any worseChristian Sylt



Christian Sylt
Formula Money


If the teams do carry out their threat, viewers would be left to choose between two rival series - something that could prove highly damaging.

A similar situation arose in American Indycar racing - a close cousin of Formula One - which split in two in the mid 1990s.

The result was that neither series proved truly successful - as fans voted with their remote controls, and migrated to other sports.

"Both parties will be weakened if this happens" says Chris Aylett, "And someone else will gain".

Distraction

Christian Sylt of Formula Money says it's a prospect which terrifies key investors in F1 - the banks who hold the Formula One Group's debt.



Jenson Button is streaks ahead in the drivers championship.
"This is bad news for the debt holders. In fact it doesn't get any worse", he says.

So those influential investors could yet have a role to play.

In the weird, wonderful and highly political world of Formula One, of course, things can change very quickly.

It is far from certain that F1 will split. But insiders say the prospect is becoming alarmingly real.

A distraction, to say the least, as the teams build up for the British Grand Prix.

 

[lightguy]

I remember a discussion on ESPN when the CART / IRL split was first happening; I believe it was Dave Despain (or possibly Bob Varsha) observing the IRL had the Indianapolis 500 and that was an incredible piece of leverage in their favor. Ultimately the obervation proved right.

FOTA has Ferrari and (if they stay the course) will win the war. The FIA is a sanctioning body, but not the only sanctioning body. Perhaps Brian France (NASCAR) will step in and sanction the FOTA. Just food for thought.

Miner

The results of the IRL/CART split is the main arrow in BernieMax's quiver.
However it is not a valid one.
ALL the F1 teams that matter; the ones the sponsors pay, the ones that the tracks want, the ones that we watch on TV and fans pay to see in person, are unified and splitting.
The ones that are backed by Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Renault, and little old Ferrari are fed up. Not a bunch of "small-fry" Indy car owners.
If TV rights can be sewn up then this is a done deal.
Good riddance Bernie, Max, FIA ,and especially CVC/FOM. They brought it on themselves with their greed and arrogance.

 

[NSXrebel]

I've been looking at several online polls on support for FOTA vs FIA, and not surprisingly, all of them are in favor of FOTA with votes in the +90%.

 

[Miner]

The results of the IRL/CART split is the main arrow in BernieMax's quiver.
However it is not a valid one.
ALL the F1 teams that matter; the ones the sponsors pay, the ones that the tracks want, the ones that we watch on TV and fans pay to see in person, are unified and splitting.
The ones that are backed by Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Renault, and little old Ferrari are fed up. Not a bunch of "small-fry" Indy car owners.
If TV rights can be sewn up then this is a done deal.
Good riddance Bernie, Max, FIA ,and especially CVC/FOM. They brought it on themselves with their greed and arrogance.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but as you put it the "small-fry" Indy car owners won because they had the Indy 500 just as the FOTA has Ferrari. I'm no fan of the FIA. Ecclestone simply goes with the money, whomever makes him the most money. I can see him jumping over to promote the FOTA series if he can make a buck.

Miner

 

[Ponyboy]

IMHO, CART was fairly successful after it split with Tony George. The battle b/t CART and the IRL eventually wore down each entity and left American open wheel racing in it's current state of irrelevance. The demise of CART started with Ganassi and Penske switching series.

If the FOTA lose similar figure head teams, like Ferrari and McLaren, you can be sure that the FOTA won't last long.

 

[JohnJW]

Fox coverage sucks......just wanted to get that outta the way. I missed laps 40-26? All blue screen.

Funny what Webber said in the post qual interview lmao!!

 

[NSXrebel]

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[eddiensx]

FIA president Max Mosley ready to drop legal action against FOTA
From correspondents in Silverstone, England
June 22, 2009 Max Mosley is prepared to drop his plans for legal action and instead seek settlement with the rebel Formula One teams planning a breakaway series, according to unconfirmed reports circulating Silverstone on Sunday evening.

After another momentous day of rumour and counter-rumour during which German Sebastian Vettel raced to victory in the British Grand Prix, paddock insiders were predicting a peaceful closure to the dispute that has split the sport.

"There won't be any writ, I think we would rather talk than litigate," Mosley was quoted telling Italian television station Sky Italia shortly before the start of Sunday's race, on the F1-Live website.

According to a poll conducted by Sky Italia, 91 per cent of their viewers supported the stance taken by the Formula One Teams Association (FOTA) in the row over budget caps with the ruling body, the International Motoring Federation (FIA).

Only 24 hours earlier, Mosley had been on the attack and during an interview with the BBC had described some of the FOTA teams' representatives as "loonies".

But on Sunday, said F1-Live, Mosley said he had invited the rebel teams to "sit down and iron out the last few difficulties ... It is definitely getting better, but these things take time.

"The problem is that we have eight teams and some want to sit down and some don't. No doubt, eventually, they all will."
Agence France-Press


Looks like it will be a technical win for FOTA.

 

[NSXrebel]

FIA president Max Mosley ready to drop legal action against FOTA
From correspondents in Silverstone, England
June 22, 2009 Max Mosley is prepared to drop his plans for legal action and instead seek settlement with the rebel Formula One teams planning a breakaway series, according to unconfirmed reports circulating Silverstone on Sunday evening.

After another momentous day of rumour and counter-rumour during which German Sebastian Vettel raced to victory in the British Grand Prix, paddock insiders were predicting a peaceful closure to the dispute that has split the sport.

"There won't be any writ, I think we would rather talk than litigate," Mosley was quoted telling Italian television station Sky Italia shortly before the start of Sunday's race, on the F1-Live website.

According to a poll conducted by Sky Italia, 91 per cent of their viewers supported the stance taken by the Formula One Teams Association (FOTA) in the row over budget caps with the ruling body, the International Motoring Federation (FIA).

Only 24 hours earlier, Mosley had been on the attack and during an interview with the BBC had described some of the FOTA teams' representatives as "loonies".

But on Sunday, said F1-Live, Mosley said he had invited the rebel teams to "sit down and iron out the last few difficulties ... It is definitely getting better, but these things take time.

"The problem is that we have eight teams and some want to sit down and some don't. No doubt, eventually, they all will."
Agence France-Press


Looks like it will be a technical win for FOTA.

Mosley is just running out of time an options. He clearly wants to appear like he's in control. Now he's backpedaling after talking smack and insulting FOTA members. Same thing with Bernie Ecclestone, more backpedaling.

Ross Brawn and others have said they are set on moving forward with a new series.

McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh, when asked about Mosley's suggestions a deal was close, said: "No, I don't think so. It is difficult to make progress on a Sunday when you are concentrating on going motor racing.

"I think obviously we have to see what happens in the coming few weeks but I think it is not a situation that we set out to achieve. We have got to make sure that we concentrate on keeping all of the teams together and making sure that we are racing together in the premier form of motor racing."

He added: "FOTA has a number of meetings next week and we've got to look at the process by which we appoint people who are selling the media, looking at the way in which we engage circuits. There has been a lot of interest in working with us, and given our situation we are obliged to go forward with those arrangements and that planning."