Window regulators upgrade

[goldNSX]

Impressive work, well done!
But I have to say that I'll start this messy and time-consuming kind of job only if my windows get slower than 7 seconds while closing. I reduced their closing-time from about this value to about 4 seconds by 'simply' (well, messy) cleaning the tracks and regreasing them with UREA grease. This is fine for me. If it gets slower you the man! :wink:
The opening-time of your kit is a tad faster than mine are at the moment.

 

[Hugabuga]

goldNSX: you should try that Teflon white grease (same that S2000 uses) and grease the regulator instead of the window tracks as these are not the problem, that would also avoid all the alignment process:wink:.
Motor is running so close to its limit, that any modification like bigger wires, new battery, track cleaning/greasing....will show results but real problem is the worn axle and cable drag.
Anyway, the most important is that it works for you!
Cheers

 

[ftuhy]

Hugo,

As to your grease recommendations, is there any reason not to use the white teflon grease on the cables instead of a general purpose grease? Wouldn't the telfon grease not get as thick at low temperatures?

And, in your response to goldNSX, you seem to be saying don't bother cleaning the tracks and grease the regulator instead. But are you also suggesting to use the white teflon grease on the tracks too?

 

[goldNSX]

and grease the regulator instead of the window tracks as these are not the problem

I've great respect for your work, believe me but you're wrong with a generalisation here. It might was the problem of your windows but it was not of mine. I did a before/after measurement of the window up- and down-time and it got step by step better during the cleaning process. Yes, I didn't uninstall them. There's a thread here somewhere but I'm too lazy to search for it where I posted my times. Of course, one can do better by using your solution. Even Honda changed the design over the years. The one thing I'm looking at is 'investing' 10 hours of my precious time to gain one second, ok, per window. :wink:

 

[Hugabuga]

goldNSX: I also respect you and your work, but I must contest just because you said I am wrong :biggrin:
This movie I made earlier in the post is the proof that the problem is coming from the regulator, as there are no tracks involved here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02jdO48GkYA

The modified regulator could lift up to 15kg (3x the glass window weight), you couldn't have this much drag coming from the tracks just because the grease is old or dried.

What happens is motor was not designed to lift 5kg because it uses the same gear ratio and cores as the Accord (like shawn110973 noticed), that has a much lighter glass let's say 3kg.
Result is that the poor overloaded motor will worn its axle until it can't work properly anymore due to a tilt position of its core!
When you clean the tracks, you simply temporary remove a few amount of drag enough to make it work again, but you don't actually solve the problem, in a few month or years you'll find yourself cleaning and greasing them again!

If you are not convinced, you should do a similar movie, with a 5kg load (=weight of the NSX glass) over freshly cleaned/greased and old greased tracks and measure the drag difference.

I bet a kit with you, that you have a worn axle! Open your motor and post us a picture! :biggrin:

The only change that Honda made was to box-shaped fit the thingy part to avoid it breaking, this has nothing to do with speed improvement.

Finally the kit takes max 1hr to fit, not 10, this a very easy job!

ftuhy: the general purpose grease is more liquid and more adequate to grease the cable, as this one is a metal cable passing through a metal sleeve, teflon is more adequate to plastic/rubber parts, but of course you can use the white grease, it is always better than no grease at all that is for sure:wink:.
This is correct: don't bother cleaning the tracks and grease the regulator instead! mainly because the regulator guides are made of rubber, so a lake of grease there will produce much more drag than from the plastic guides of the window tracks.
But if you want to grease the tracks anyway, you can also use the white teflon grease yes, but in that case grease also the regulator and not ONLY the window tracks like goldNSX did, this is of course just MY advice, but as long as a solution works for you, you should use it...

 

[ChopsJazz]

Hugo, you may also mention in your instructions that it is important to de-burr the outer surface of the shaft liner that you include in the kit. Mine were a little rough from the cutting process and I took a file file to the edges to smooth them.

 

[ChopsJazz]

Just finished the install on both windows. The second one went much smoother than the first. I'm an expert now!

I'd give this a 4 out of 5 for difficulty. Try to have a little set of hands nearby for the reassembly of the window onto the glide. And have a computer on-site to watch the video while you're working.

Great DIY Hugo! Bravo!

 

[Hugabuga]

Hi ChopsJazz.
You are right, some of the 10 first kits had a sleeve with a burred outer surface, but hopefully this was corrected in all following kits, first production models have always more defects:biggrin:!


It is important not to de-burr the inner surface, as this will help to fix the sleeve in the axle and prevent it from rotate.

Perhaps I should have done some paper instructions instead of the movie, I just thought it was easier and more fun to watch a movie.
If you prefer, I can post some PDF instructions manual of course.

 

[ChopsJazz]

Hi ChopsJazz.
You are right, some of the 10 first kits had a sleeve with a burred outer surface, but hopefully this was corrected in all following kits, first production models have always more defects:biggrin:!


It is important not to de-burr the inner surface, as this will help to fix the sleeve in the axle and prevent it from rotate.

Perhaps I should have done some paper instructions instead of the movie, I just thought it was easier and more fun to watch a movie.
If you prefer, I can post some PDF instructions manual of course.

I did exactly as you mentioned and left the inner race rough so it would adhere better to the plastic shaft. As for paper instructions, that might be a nice thing to include, but the video worked great for me. I just had to clean the grease off of it after the job was done! :redface:

Tell me, your inner parts were very clean. I left mine lubricated with some of the old grease and even added some new Urea High Temp grease. Is that ok?

 

[Hugabuga]

All parts including inner ones were cleaned and all grease removed just for the movie to avoid dirtying the hands of the poor 6 years old child :biggrin:

You should keep the old grease or replace it for a new one of course.
Silicone grease works great, as all inner parts are made of plastic, but the Urea high temp is also fine, most important is to have grease rather than its type.

 

[YTRY]

I would love to see some paper instructions also, the video is great but I would prefer to be able to look at the instructions while installing.

Thanks
Michael

 

[shawn110975]

paper instructions? its like riding a bicycle, once watching the video you should be able to do it.

no PHD in Astro Physics needed. LOL

 

[Hugabuga]

I'm working on the instructions right now, I will post them very soon!
Pictures will be taken directly from the movie:biggrin:

 

[RYU]

Hey Hugo,

I received the package in the mail today. THanks! The laser cut washers are niiice. As a backyard fabricator myself I can definitely appreciate attention to detail here. I wish I had a drill press setup like yours thought. My press is already wobbly and my hand drill is no better.

I have a couple of questions.

1. What torque rating do you think the pulley bolt/nut needs to be tightened at? I'm thinking around 12lb-22lbs would be sufficient? Although, I don't think it's a big problem since it seems the pulley shaft is supported by a bearing that is not easy to over-compress.

2. I noticed in the video you ended up with both springs fully compressed but previously in the thread (pic below) you said we should have the spring farther from the motor at close to full extension. Any thoughts?

btw... a paper how-to instruction is not necessary for me. the video says a million words!

 

[Hugabuga]

Hi Regan (ryu), thank you for your interesting questions!

Here are my answers in the same order:

- I had to make some last minute laser cut stainless steel washers as I ran out of them. Most of the kits however do have factory made ones, I ordered these from France, they are used for thru-hull repairs in fiberglass boat.

- be careful when you do the drill, most important is to stay centered and gradually increase the size of the drills from 10.5 to 12mm, in a 0,5mm step.
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Use the sleeve and do the drills only if the axle has evidence of wear!
There is no need to modify a fully working system!

-The pulley screw/nut has a 6mm diameter but as it is in stainless steel you can go up to 30NM so 20Ft-lbs yes go ahead :biggrin:

-Compress the springs as much as you can!

Decompress them only if you are not using the pulley, this will reduce the cable drag, but add some boring movement lag between the opening and closing operation. This was one of the DIY techniques I found to improve the regulator speed:wink:

 

[MikeW]

Just another thought:
Has anyone ever measured the voltage drop across the lines?
As you know it is low voltage and therefore big amperes want to get through them... So I think increasing their diameter may have another positive effect.

 

[ralph cerbone]

Just another thought:
Has anyone ever measured the voltage drop across the lines?
As you know it is low voltage and therefore big amperes want to get through them... So I think increasing their diameter may have another positive effect.

some ones thinking ,when i first got my car (97) i checked the amperage draw of both sides ,driver side was around 12amps ,pass side was 8amps goingup didnt really beleive it was a lube resistance, greased them up but still had a pulsing going up on the driver side , I think hugo is right where hes going with this kit ,i'll post the current draws when i'am done ,that tells everything

 

[Hugabuga]

MikeW: that would in fact increase the maximum amount of available current being able to "feed" the motor and make it work faster in its maximum load yes....but here are some downside effects I can think of:

- you need to rewire all the door and part of the cabin loom to get bigger wires to the motor
- you probably also need to include some relays to protect the switch(es) and connectors
- motor brushes will run-out prematurely as more current passes through them
- motor thermal switch will probably be cutting the closing movement of the window several times
- finally, the axle will wear even more intensively if you increase the motor torque by increasing its operating current!

Motor and all electric parts were designed let's say for a maximum current (and torque!) of 10Amp. If because of the all the drag that maximum current is not enough anymore, then you should replace all the electric component including the motor for bigger ones, but just bigger wires won't do a long term solution, soon you will need a new motor!

Do you agree?

 

[MikeW]

MikeW: that would in fact increase the maximum amount of available current being able to "feed" the motor and make it work faster in its maximum load yes....but here are some downside effects I can think of:

- you need to rewire all the door and part of the cabin loom to get bigger wires to the motor
- you probably also need to include some relays to protect the switch(es) and connectors
- motor brushes will run-out prematurely as more current passes through them
- motor thermal switch will probably be cutting the closing movement of the window several times
- finally, the axle will wear even more intensively if you increase the motor torque by increasing its operating current!

Motor and all electric parts were designed let's say for a maximum current (and torque!) of 10Amp. If because of the all the drag that maximum current is not enough anymore, then you should replace all the electric component including the motor for bigger ones, but just bigger wires won't do a long term solution, soon you will need a new motor!

Do you agree?

Hope you don't get me wrong.
It was just a thought that the cables in the car may be under-designed (I did not look closely yet) or there is a juncture causing an "unmeant" resistance because they are already slow when they are new. So it would be interesting for me to know the voltage drops on an installed mechanical proper system.

It was not my idea to get over mechanical drag from a worn system by just feeding more current - but maybe to make a proper system work even faster by eliminating (unmeant) electrical resistance.

 

[ralph cerbone]

Hope you don't get me wrong.
It was just a thought that the cables in the car may be under-designed (I did not look closely yet) or there is a juncture causing an "unmeant" resistance because they are already slow when they are new. So it would be interesting for me to know the voltage drops on an installed mechanical proper system.

It was not my idea to get over mechanical drag from a worn system by just feeding more current - but maybe to make a proper system work even faster by eliminating (unmeant) electrical resistance.

try Hugos kit before you go crazy ,i am sure it will take alot of load off the operating system , when electric motors work less the current will go down and everbody will be happy ,also i had acceptable voltage drops(-.2) thru my master door sw. ,i disconnected the window from the reg. and it moved freely , now you know something binding in the reg.

 

[Hugabuga]

Of course I don't get you wrong MikeW, any idea to improve the regulator is always welcome!!
Wire could be under-designed and bigger wires would reduce their resistance and so voltage drops of course.

I don't think however that they are under-designed because the motor thermal switch will act when the window reaches its full opened position and you keep on pressing the switch (this is when the consumption is at its maximum)..so that means there is actually already excessive current! or everything is underdesign then....

But that gives me perhaps a better idea, following yours!

Instead of reducing the voltage drops coming from the OEM wire resistance by replacing them with bigger ones just to reduce their resistance and voltage drop...Why not simply increase the VOLTAGE itself by a few volts??

We could use a small 6V moto battery, fit it in the door...and have it recharged by the BOSE amplifier 12v power whenever the window motor were not in use...or better, find a small voltage booster circuit, capable of delivering 15 or 20amp at 15V for example! That could work
Of course the motor will get more torque...teeth gear wheels and brushes would last a few less years...but it would increase its speed, there is no doubt about that!:wink:

You can easily find these voltage boosters, these were used a few years ago in old cars to increase their night vision...when there was no HID Xenon people used to over-power their headlight bulbs with 15V:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[MikeW]

Why not simply increase the VOLTAGE itself by a few volts??

We could use a small 6V moto battery, fit it in the door...and have it recharged by the BOSE amplifier 12v power whenever the window motor were not in use

Nice idea ! You can substitude the motor with a cordless screwdriver for it. These are compact and already provided with torque limiting and speed control. For a constant window speed make it closed loop...:biggrin:

Don't shoot at me, I initially just was throwing a thought without beeing so deep in the details with my regulator :wink:.

 

[shawn110975]

if we all wanna be real about it upgrade your wires to Pure gold, for the least amount of resistance LOL.. I wonder how much that would cost.

LOL

sorry that wasnt very helpful/ was just messing around. gold prices are to HIGH right now, so maybe wait till it goes down after Obama leaves OFFICE. LOL

 

[ralph cerbone]

if we all wanna be real about it upgrade your wires to Pure gold, for the least amount of resistance LOL.. I wonder how much that would cost.

LOL

sorry that wasnt very helpful/ was just messing around. gold prices are to HIGH right now, so maybe wait till it goes down after Obama leaves OFFICE. LOL

round wire is rated in circular mil
a mil = .001 of an inch , a circular mil is the cross section of a wire with the dia. of one mil
silver =9.8 ohms at 25degrees c
gold =10.35 """"""""""""""""""""""""
if silver has less res. whats all this B.S. about ,gold will oxide less making it a better conductor , gold is used in SRS sys. because of liabilty , when that lawyer has that engineer on the stand and holds them responsible for a air bag deployment failure , all he can say is they used the best material available === hows this for some mental masturbation LOL

 

[greenberet]

I just installed a kit in my passenger’s side door and have a few tips in addition to those in Hugabuga’s .pdf instructions:

- When you remove the regulator from the door, note how far the regulator lever that was holding the window is from the top of the track. You will want to put the lever back in this position when you reinstall it so that it lines up with the glass again.

- To press the steel sleeve to the base of the black plastic axle, an 11 mm deep socket works perfectly.

- To make sure the steel sleeve cannot rotate on the plastic axle and abrade it away, a bit of two component epoxy resin between the axle and sleeve can fix it in place. Just make sure to wipe away any excess epoxy before it hardens.

- If you don’t have a drill press, you can drill out the cores by hand, without using electrical power. The material the cores are made of is soft enough that you can just rotate the cores by hand on the drill bits. Since I don’t have a drill press, I figured that doing it completely by hand is probably safer (for the cores) and more accurate than trying to drill the holes with a standard electric drill.

- When drilling the cores I bored out both together, as one unit, instead of drilling the two cores separately. That way they are perfectly aligned in relation to one another and have less of a chance of binding when installed on the axle.

- For those with metric drill bits, drill the white plastic cores out to 12.25 mm so that they can spin freely on the metal sleeve.

- Before attaching the pulley to the regulator, I applied some grease to the area to prevent contact corrosion between the stainless steel and the aluminum.

- After installing the pulley, the cables, and the cores, the regulator lever needs to go from the down to the up position so that the gear wheel and spring can be reinstalled. To do that, I didn’t push up on the regulator lever itself, I turned the cores by hand. That way you can constantly have your eye on the cables to make sure everything is working properly and it ensures that the two cores cannot spring apart in the process, before the gear wheel, spring, and cover hold everything in there firmly together.

- To pre-load the spring in the right-hand door, turn the spring counter-clockwise. Tip from Hugabuga: the rotary springs in the regulators are side-specific. To pre-load the spring in the left hand door, turn the spring clockwise.

Happy wrenching!