Why are COPS such little people?

[zahntech]

Thanks "lady'sman", ...Bandit...your post is completely absurd because my mother would NEVER be such a complete bitch to a police officer...my mother is smart enough to be courteous and take her issues with the police up in court... this woman had plenty of opportunity's to comply with the officer that was trying to do his job....she obviously has no respect for the law and other people IE speeding 20 mph over in a housing area,driving with suspended license,driving car that has safety issues ect ect


she got exactly what she asked for..

 

[randomharmony]

I hope the "bitch" you referred to is this one here. She got what she deserved.

That lady did not ask to be tazered. IMHO

 

[zahntech]

IMO she definitely needed to be tazerd,..... about 2 years ago a local police officer was trying to "reason with" and be "understanding to" a man who was being difficult and a public nuisance..the officer ended up chasing this person around on foot rather than tazering him or shooting him ..the man then wrestled the officers gun away and killed him with it....I'm sure that officer's family is happy he was so compassionate towards the unruly man........

 

[orbusrex]

I've seen this video a bunch of times. The officer showed great restraint in this situation. He dealt with her attitude from the start in a very professional manner. He continued to alert her to as why she was pulled over, what her infractions were, and then what was going to happen. (ie. arrest) A person does not need physically be in handcuffs to define arrest. Once placed under arrest, orally, the woman is required to comply with the orders of the officer OR the officer may use as much force necessary TO CARRY OUT THE ARREST. in this case, she was ACTIVELY resisting the officer by remaining in the car and not allowing him to physically remove her. In this case the Taser is the next move. It is far better than using his fists (NEVER a good option) or a baton... the effects wear off in a matter of minutes. (It's better than pepper spray as well.. trust me).

This officer did a great job..

Q: What's the best way to not get Tasered?

A: Listen to the cop, especially if you broke the law.

 

[whiteNSXs]

Steve,

Please define what's "hostile" for me then, seems to me, it was the officer that was provoking and focing the issue, and the driver was reacting to him.

Shane,
You need to watch the video again to figure out who provoked whom. If you cannot figure it out, there is no point to continue this discussion. The driver asked for it.
Steve

 

[zahntech]

Oh I get it! he provoked her by pulling her over....how dare he do that!

 

[nsxpilot]

Interesting thread.......but some are missing the issue. I think as much as we pay in taxes for government services, we should know how our money is being spent and why. People should understand basic police procedures and even understand the concept of "force continuum". Force continuum refers to the level of force an officer may use to overcome a given level of resistance, i.e. verbal commands, minimum physical control, tazer, pepper spray, baton, firearm etc. Some agencies vary slightly, but the basic idea is to use only the force necessary to overcome the resistance being offered. In other words, cops don't bring a baton or tazer to a gun fight as on TV. In the case of the video, the cop didn't deploy the tazer because "she deserved it".......he used it as a tool to get her out of the SUV which was (very) successful. Tazers are used hundreds of times each day in the U.S. to deal with violent people. By and large, they do not cause injury (I know someone will claim alot of people die from it) but that is simply not statistically valid. It has saved hundres of people (including police officers) from serious injury or worse. In the case of this video, the cop could have opted to wrestle her out of the SUV, risking injury to himself and her. It is not unheard of to have cops dragged to their death attempting to extricate a violent driver. And to those that say "He was a stong male .....he could have removed her easily", I would say, guess again! It just isn't like TV! Others complain he didn't negotiate long enough with the driver. Well maybe, but it's hard to second guess him. The bottom line is he probably followed his departments policy, no one was injured (and guess who pays when an officer is hurt--you guessed it, us taxpayers) and he got a job done despite the conditions. The second bottom line (sorry for long post) is that police work of all kinds is often an ugly deal......and can be shocking to the uninformed.

 

[Ennesssex]

My take on the situation is that society is divided into two general groups when dealing with police officers. The first group deals with officers in a way where the outcome is generally successful in the sense that no one feels their rights have been violated. They continue this perception as long as their interactions with the police are generally positive. In the event a police officer violates their rights (improper police procedure, arguably in this case excessive force), that person crosses over to the second group. Here the negative experience with the police officer leads the individual to have at a minimum, a negative perception of law enforcement.
Now flip the coin.....multiply these negative experiences a hundred fold and you have the officer's perception. Bad experiences with a gender/race/group will definetly affect their perception in dealing with the situation and ultimately their use of discretion.
While the police have a difficult task to police the public at large, I believe the more difficult and critical task is to police the officers.

 

[orbusrex]

Interesting thread.......but some are missing the issue. I think as much as we pay in taxes for government services, we should know how our money is being spent and why. People should understand basic police procedures and even understand the concept of "force continuum". Force continuum refers to the level of force an officer may use to overcome a given level of resistance, i.e. verbal commands, minimum physical control, tazer, pepper spray, baton, firearm etc. Some agencies vary slightly, but the basic idea is to use only the force necessary to overcome the resistance being offered. In other words, cops don't bring a baton or tazer to gun fight as on TV. In the case of the video, the cop didn't deploy the tazer because "she deserved it".......he used it as a tool to get her out of the SUV which was (very) successful. Tazers are used hundreds of times each day in the U.S. to deal with violent people. By and large, they do not cause injury (I know someone will claim alot of people die from it) but that is simply not statistically valid. It has saved hundres of people (including police officers) from serious injury or worse. In the case of video, the cop could have opted to wrestle her out of the SUV, risking injury to himself and her. It is not unheard of to have cops dragged to their death attempting to extricate a violent driver. And to those that say "He was a stong male .....he could have removed her easily", I would say, guess again! It just isn't like TV! Others complain he didn't negotiate long enough with the driver. Well maybe, but it's hard to second guess him. The bottom line is he probably followed his departments policy, no one was injured (and guess who pays when an officer is hurt--you guessed it, us taxpayers) and he got a job done despite the conditions. The second bottom line (sorry for long post) is that police work of all kinds is often an ugly deal......and can be shocking to the uninformed.

Smartest Oregonian alive (besides my sister :biggrin: ) You nailed it very well. Must be a cop (or former) Great post

 

[robr]

My take on the situation is that society is divided into two general groups when dealing with police officers. The first group deals with officers in a way where the outcome is generally successful in the sense that no one feels their rights have been violated. They continue this perception as long as their interactions with the police are generally positive. In the event a police officer violates their rights (improper police procedure, arguably in this case excessive force), that person crosses over to the second group. Here the negative experience with the police officer leads the individual to have at a minimum, a negative perception of law enforcement.
Now flip the coin.....multiply these negative experiences a hundred fold and you have the officer's perception. Bad experiences with a gender/race/group will definetly affect their perception in dealing with the situation and ultimately their use of discretion.
While the police have a difficult task to police the public at large, I believe the more difficult and critical task is to police the officers.

I don't like cops for the most part, but I don't display that because I know that if I encounter one while doing his job, the best way for me to drive off is to treat him with respect and show that I realize I was doing something wrong. Hell, I'll go do it again once I cross the town line, but acting as that woman did only makes it worse for everyone. It's called diplomacy and it's a powerful tool. So, I'm on the second side of the line above, but it only makes the victory that much sweeter when the cop lets me drive off because I was polite and courteous. I hate prosecutors a whole lot more though.

Actually I do have one cop story that absolutely amazes me to this day. It is so untypical from any experience anyone seems to have with the police, I enjoy sharing it.

My friend and I were staying in his moms timeshare in Hollywood, FL. My car at the time (a Daytona Shelby Z) had T roofs that I left off overnight in the parking garage. I came out the next day and one of my amps was gone. The stereo was fine, the subs were there, the other amp which was immediately adjacent to the one that was taken was still there.

So, I did my duty and trekked down to the police to file a report. What happened next was like a TV show. Out comes a guy dressed like Don Johnson. Suitcoat with T-shirt and asked me to follow him and his partner back to the parking garage!!! They start questioning the attendent and asked him to pull all the records for the previous 24 hours and wanted to know how to get surveillance tapes. For one stolen amp.... taken from a car that I left open.... OK, granted, maybe there had been a ton of thefts in that area and they thought they might have had a lead... I dunno what the reason was, I just know that for once in my life, a cop took me seriously when I had a problem instead of the usual 'fill out this form and kiss your stuff goodbye'.

 

[randomharmony]

Shane,
You need to watch the video again to figure out who provoked whom. If you cannot figure it out, there is no point to continue this discussion. The driver asked for it.
Steve

This is hostile. And the bitch deserves to be tazered.

That lady is not a "bitch", but a human being; and her action was no where close of being hostile.

While I do not condone what she did, the speeding and the un-incorporating with the officer, etc., she was stupid and she made some bad decisions. However, the officer's following choice of action created so many problems at so many levels that it made the incident a lot more worse than it is, the use of un-necessary force on a defenseless female minority.

"Less lethal devices (taser) provide officers with
alternative resolutions short of the use of deadly force." In the dog attack, this was the case. I am not so sure you can say the same thing about the pull over.

Here is the Less Lethal Directive, D 05-016. Maybe we should use this as a reference instead of guessing what is appropriate.

 

[queenlives]

This is hostile. And the bitch deserves to be tazered.

That lady is not a "bitch", but a human being; and her action was no where close of being hostile.

While I do not condone what she did, the speeding and the un-incorporating with the officer, etc., she was stupid and she made some bad decisions. However, the officer's following choice of action created so many problems at so many levels that it made the incident a lot more worse than it is, the use of un-necessary force on a defenseless female minority.

"Less lethal devices (taser) provide officers with
alternative resolutions short of the use of deadly force." In the dog attack, this was the case. I am not so sure you can say the same thing about the pull over.

Here is the Less Lethal Directive, D 05-016. Maybe we should use this as a reference instead of guessing what is appropriate.

shane,

you've given a reference to a police policy from the state of washington; the arrest happened in boynton beach, fl... it would be helpful you would provide relative material for reference.

based on your posts thus far, it appears to me that you believe race is a key element of this use of force. based on what i see and hear in the video, i disagree with race being a deciding factor. everybody gets an opinion, you've had yours, i've had mine.

i, for one, would find it helpful if (in addition to using appropriate reference material) you would provide this officer's history of arrests/use of force/interaction with minorities to document your position. in today's world of video/online documentation of such incidents, i'm sure that info is available. of course, another acceptable datapoint would be the links to the ourtome of the legal action against this person OR the officer for civil rights violations.

 

[randomharmony]

Hal,

I think you've greatly mistaken. No, I do NOT think race is a "key element" here, it was an observation of the clip but I think it also complicated the matter at hand. IMHO, I think gender is more of a factor than race.

Since we are in the court of public opinion here, let's examine these 2 clips a little more carefully because everything happened so fast. And let's not make any presumptions either and base it on what we see from the clips.

I’m sure PETA can have a lot to say about the dog clip, but I don’t really care because IT”S A DOG!!! On the other hand, I’m a little concerned about the girl in the pull over clip, as I just watched again. The time the officer approached the driver was at 7:51:26, not sure it’s AM or PM (which is NOT irrelevant). And the time the officer fired the taser gun was at 7:55:28, exactly 4 minutes and 2 second later. In less than 5 minutes, this girl was shot at by a “Less lethal Devices”. Now if the bitch gets it in less than 5 sec for running at you, don’t you think a human being deserves a little more than 5 minutes for not running at you? Someone MAY have broke the law, but does the punishment fit the crime?

 

[docjohn]

I watched the clip.I did'nt think that those dash cams were wired for such clear audio so far from the perps car.I'll assume what we see on this internet site is as it happened.My perspective on tasering is that it is suposed to be used as a less traumatic way to subdue or gain controll of a perp,not as in the field punishment(ala gudge dread).The alternative for the cops is physical controll by force,much more traumatic,ala night stick.Cops like the fact that the taser leaves no visible stigmata of a beating,but is effective.The risk of high voltage low amp shock is potential cardiac arythmia,or respiratory arrest,but I think these fatal complications are noted in cases of repeated mutiple applications.Anyway from my experience working in inner city ER's in NY most of the wacked up psychotic,pcp'ed,combative perps came in quite injured and remained shackeled(and screaming all night) due to "traditional "methods.Tasering has lessened this sad sight.As with any form of controll ,it is up to standards of practice as to what we deem apropriate for its use.My point is that the cops deal with the unknown everyday and a woman can be just as strong as a man. so whether it would have been better for everyone for him to spend 2 hrs reasoning with her at which point they pull her out risking everyone involved,,or do what he did and go back to business as usual in 5 minutes is of course open to opinion,but I know what mine is :wink:

 

[randomharmony]

man, after reading the posts here, that was a difficult video to watch... kinda like the jfk shooting, you knew what was gonna happen.

i'm not sure if i was the cop how i would have handled it, but based on the driver's actions up to that point (and given the various infractions + suspended license), this guy knows there's not a snowball's chance in hell it's actually going to improve if he takes no action and if he's following his dept's tazer guidelines, he's likely "ok" in his actions. in any event, likely a lawsuit to follow.

(btw, her howling reminded me of a business trip to chicago years ago. about 11 pm at night, i'm in bed sleeping like a baby and a female voice from the next room starts yellin' out "OH BABY, OH BABY, OH BABY, HOWWWWWL". 5 minutes later, it starts again but with a different voice. this goes on for hours.

the next morning, i'm leaving my room and from the room next door steps a guy with two women. everybody's looking pretty happy.

i said to the guy, "you must be OH BABY". smiles all around.

in both cases (video and my roommates), they had it coming to them.

btw Hal, you might not remember, but i was Mr. "Oh Baby Oh". :wink:

 

[zahntech]

her action was no where close of being hostile.

If her actions were not "close to being hostile" than what behavior would meet that criteria for you?..would she have to pull out a flame thrower and try to burn the cop to death?....she was IMO extremely hostile.


yes she is a person, but IMO the civilized world would be better off without people like her.

I read the seattle police guidelines and from what I read, the officer in the video performed as per the guidelines for seattle.

 

[queenlives]

Hal,

I think you've greatly mistaken. No, I do NOT think race is a "key element" here, it was an observation of the clip but I think it also complicated the matter at hand. IMHO, I think gender is more of a factor than race.

<snip>

On the other hand, I’m a little concerned about the girl in the pull over clip, as I just watched again. The time the officer approached the driver was at 7:51:26, not sure it’s AM or PM (which is NOT irrelevant). And the time the officer fired the taser gun was at 7:55:28, exactly 4 minutes and 2 second later. In less than 5 minutes, this girl was shot at by a “Less lethal Devices”. Now if the bitch gets it in less than 5 sec for running at you, don’t you think a human being deserves a little more than 5 minutes for not running at you? Someone MAY have broke the law, but does the punishment fit the crime?

gotcha.

ok, so you don't think race was a key element, but you think it contributed to the officer's action? the fact that the arrestee was a female and the officer was a male weighs more in his decision to taser her. if i've read and interpreted your comments fairly, i accept them for what they are... an opinion.

having watched the video only 2x (and not being able to see what the arrestee was doing at the time he eventually used his weapon), my sense from the combined a/v was the guy did what he thought was best for him and his partner at that time. i can't begin to count the number of times i've awakened at 5 in the morning to see on the early morning news that another cop was shot as s/he walked up to a stopped vehicle, usually some jr officer who didn't want to be "too aggressive". were i the cop & the community, i would want to ensure that he and his partner followed policy; if so, the community can pressure the police dept to modify the policy to meet wishes. btw, in the interest of full disclosure, a long time ago (kinda like star wars) as a military cop, i had to physically drag people out of their cars in these kinds of situations. each and every time it happened, while i was wrestling with the person, i was **always** worried about my weapon being taken from me. i have no sympathy for an uncooperative & belligerent stop.

i didn't watch the other video you refer to. in general, i'm relatively uninterested in watching these kinds of things.

btw, i THOUGHT i recognized you!

hal

 

[MegaZap]

Fellow NSX owners,

I'm just wondering how far back in that beautifully designed front end can I mount that plate? I think it's time for a call for pics. Anyone have any ingenious ways of mounting the plate that doesn't detract from our cars design? I'd love to see them!

All the way inside the scoop off to the side on an angle?

How bout a James Bond kinda thing so the horizontally mounted plate flips down to vertical at the touch of a button?

Zap

 

[orbusrex]

interesting concept... plate mounts... how about the plate sits horizontal underneath, letters facing the road... cop rolls by, push a button, and it goes out then up (kinda like a dash mounted tv)... and if it had a billet backing it could second as a skid plate!! :biggrin:

 

[bandit]

i agree. women are not bitches. if so then the wound you come from lies a bitch.

 

[randomharmony]

gotcha.

ok, so you don't think race was a key element, but you think it contributed to the officer's action? the fact that the arrestee was a female and the officer was a male weighs more in his decision to taser her. if i've read and interpreted your comments fairly, i accept them for what they are... an opinion.

Hal,

you are trying to put words in my mouth. As I mentioned, the fact that this driver was a FEMALE and BLACK was an OBSERVATION of the clip. I wouldn't know what goes through the officer's mind and i presume that he would treat everyone fairly, the same way like me, no less.

 

[queenlives]

Hal,

you are trying to put words in my mouth. As I mentioned, the fact that this driver was a FEMALE and BLACK was an OBSERVATION of the clip. I wouldn't know what goes through the officer's mind and i presume that he would treat everyone fairly, the same way like me, no less.

shane,

it appears we have a misunderstanding (not just a disagreement). i took your comments:

"here you have a fully armored, well builded white male and a casually dresed slender black female, who's seems more hostile?"

and

"I think you've greatly mistaken. No, I do NOT think race is a "key element" here, it was an observation of the clip but I think it also complicated the matter at hand. IMHO, I think gender is more of a factor than race."

to mean that (since you introduced race & gender) into the thread, you believed race may have complicated the stop and that gender was more of a factor than race.

if you did not intend this and i've publicly misreprsented your words, please accept my public apology. if i appear as though i am attempting to put words in your mouth, i'm not, as that's not an approach i practice or endorse in my life... though sometimes i may slip, i suppose.

actually, i've tried to reiterate your position as i understand it (to form the basis for a dialogue <rather than a rant> ) and have asked you to provide supporting evidence that this officer was acting in a non-professional manner as supported by (1) his dept's use of force policy wrt tazer so we can compare what we see on the video against the regs (2) any charges filed against him by the arrestee (there would quite likely be public record of this (3) his documented history of alleged/actual civil rights violations.

for purposes of this thread/discussion, i **accept** that (despite my personal feelings that he took appropriate actions given what i saw on the video) he may well have violated his dept's policies and have a history of jacking up minorities and it's time to get rid of him.

 

[randomharmony]

Hal old bud, no apology needed. Let's keep this light hearted and not personal. Everyone can look at things in a different angle which is perfectly fine, an exchange of ideas is great! You and I may not be a doctor or a murderer or noble :wink: , but I always feel that I'm a studen of life, and there are still MANY things we can learn in life.

As I've mentioned, I was only stating the facts from my observation, so we can establish a common ground of disscusion. You can interpret these facts anyway you want and you can disagree with what I think I've saw, but that's your own interpretation, not mine. :smile:

 

[whiteNSXs]

shane,

it appears we have a misunderstanding (not just a disagreement). i took your comments:

"here you have a fully armored, well builded white male and a casually dresed slender black female, who's seems more hostile?"

and

"I think you've greatly mistaken. No, I do NOT think race is a "key element" here, it was an observation of the clip but I think it also complicated the matter at hand. IMHO, I think gender is more of a factor than race."

to mean that (since you introduced race & gender) into the thread, you believed race may have complicated the stop and that gender was more of a factor than race.

if you did not intend this and i've publicly misreprsented your words, please accept my public apology. if i appear as though i am attempting to put words in your mouth, i'm not, as that's not an approach i practice or endorse in my life... though sometimes i may slip, i suppose.

actually, i've tried to reiterate your position as i understand it (to form the basis for a dialogue <rather than a rant> ) and have asked you to provide supporting evidence that this officer was acting in a non-professional manner as supported by (1) his dept's use of force policy wrt tazer so we can compare what we see on the video against the regs (2) any charges filed against him by the arrestee (there would quite likely be public record of this (3) his documented history of alleged/actual civil rights violations.

for purposes of this thread/discussion, i **accept** that (despite my personal feelings that he took appropriate actions given what i saw on the video) he may well have violated his dept's policies and have a history of jacking up minorities and it's time to get rid of him.

People need to take accountabilities for what they write. By trying to weasel their way out, it will only make them looking like fools. Humility comes from wisdom.
Steve

 

[JoshJacob@Keyes]

Cops are the kids we all used to beat up in school and they now feel that since they have a badge, they have power over us. I would love to tell them to meet me in a dark alley and take that badge off to remind them of how they used to get their asses kicked. They have short man syndrome and abuse their power so they can feel like more of a man.