Tomoske collective investigation and tracking for law suit

[L8apex32]

I am not involved in this, nor am I a lawyer, so take this for what its worth.

But, for one, I don't get the whole good sumaritan idea. There is obviously a lot of risk taking orders for hundreds or thousands of dollars. Was the beneift simply to get personal access to cheap carbon fiber trim pieces? The risk/reward is heavily to the risk side and looks fishy. Wouldn't it just be easier to buy from a local vendor?

Secondly, by acting in this way, you become an agent for the seller. The US legal system will expect you to be able to acquire refunds or to provide products, since you took the money.

A relationship more like what you wanted would have looked more like you were a courier or provided some sort of currency conversion service. It would have come with terms and conditions, plus a lot of limits of liability.

But, simply offering to "give the money" to someone else is that of an agent and comes with reasonable expectations and, therefore, liability. Not only is there liability for the product not showing up but also for the millions of other things people get sued for all the time - like injuries. Say someone cuts their finger installing one of these pieces. Who do you think they will blame?

To play devils advocate, how would it look if the other guy never existed? Or, what if the other guy was never the manufacturer of any parts and scammed you? Or, what if you two were in on a scam? Can anything today be shown that proves this wasn't a two-party international scam?

I hope you don't take me to be accusing you or anyone of anything like this. I'm just trying to point out how the US legal system deals with situations where people take money on behalf of others.

Let me note two other things. One of John@Microsoft's posts had an image where the text read that 100% of long-time NSX owners have been scammed or lost money (or simliar) from someone in the community. As far as I can remember, I have not. I even deal with that evil company from San Diego area that some people claim scam people all the time. I don't have anything to be bitter about, I just took business law in college.

Also, I do think most people are good by nature and aren't out here to scam us. On the other hand, if you want to help people out by being the "go between", do it with some simple terms and conditions and, only after doing research on who you are representing. Perhaps someone could put together some basic "I'm only helping out" terms and conditions for those trying to help others in a group-buy situation.

I'm all for helping the free-market bring items to us. But, based on our imperfect legal system, you have to realize that "just helping out" is not good enough if people (or the legal system) starts poking around for missing money or products.

I hope Stuntman's opinion is correct and that this works out for you all.

 

[RSO 34]

I was not part of the group buy.... The focus of this thread was to apply pressure on Tamoske.

I didn't realize you were not part of the GB. Now I am even more annoyed at your comments below directed to NMYMIRR since you have no personal stake in the transaction and yet you have the temerity to suggest that NMYMIRR is somehow legally responsible and/or not doing enough to get money back.

Instead of pointing the finger at a Prime member who simply volunteered to collect money and whose motto will now become "no good deed goes unpunished", why don't you take the lead and get the money back from Lithuania?

So your willing to take the money but not be the spoke person? And now you want me to be the middle man to persue Tamoske? I honestly don't think you've done your fair share to recover the money. You might be a nice person and ment well but you see this as "other people's problem". You fell for his scam to get you to be the middle man so he wouldn't be bothered with the GB. He's probably reading this laughing that we american's are fighting eachother. What have you done to get the money back? How much money did you foward him?

BTW I appreciate the address. Thank you.
Phone # was a bonus

Don't get me wrong, I am neither upset or inflamed. Im probably conveying what the GB people and other nsx people that are following this post are feeling but unwilling to type out. In court the GB goes after you and you go after Tamoske, I think thats how its going to play out unless Tamoske delivers. I'm sorry that you are the middle man. I really thought it was someone from overseas.

 

[RSO 34]

I am not involved in this, nor am I a lawyer.

Correct statement.

Secondly, by acting in this way, you become an agent for the seller. The US legal system will expect you to be able to acquire refunds or to provide products, since you took the money.

Inaccurate statement.

Based upon the description of the transactional history, he is not an agent. It is no different than a situation where we have a group dinner and one person collects the money, pays the restaurant and the restaurant goes out of business or burns down.

But, simply offering to "give the money" to someone else is that of an agent and comes with reasonable expectations and, therefore, liability. Not only is there liability for the product not showing up but also for the millions of other things people get sued for all the time - like injuries. Say someone cuts their finger installing one of these pieces. Who do you think they will blame?.

Incorrect statement.

A very general anaylsis on products liability involves the liability of any or all parties along the chain of manufacture of any product for damage caused by that product. This includes the manufacturer of component parts (at the top of the chain), an assembling manufacturer, the wholesaler, a distributor and the retail store owner (at the bottom of the chain). NMYMIRR is no more liable than Paypal would be for effectuating the funds transfer.

 

[L8apex32]

Based upon the description of the transactional history, he is not an agent. It is no different than a situation where we have a group dinner and one person collects the money, pays the restaurant and the restaurant goes out of business or burns down.

There are problems with your analogy. For one, the restaurant is a US business as opposed to some yet-to-be-proven foreign individual. For another, it is common and normal for people to make group reservations for a meal in the future. And, the restaurant is an entity that the individuals can deal with directly for their refund, whether burned down or bankrupt.

There are many other problems with this analogy. Say the restaurant had never had a customer before. Say the restaurant was in a foreign country. And, say the do-gooder was from the US and just volunteered, out of the blue, to be the go-between between himself and some foreign restaurant that has never had a single meal served. Oh, and say the restaurant didn't have a building (used a home address and personal bank account), had no employees and no other reservations. Do you still like your analogy?

This is a simple case of a third-party transaction. The middle person is exposed some sort of liability when the money just disappears. Legally it will come down to what is reasonable. Is it reasonable that the agent would have checked the vendor before offering to represent? Is it reasonable that the agent can acquire a re-fund if the products are not produced? Is it reasonable that the agent would use escrow or insurance when dealing with this much money?

What do you think would happen if someone was injured by using this product?

Again, hope this works out for all.

 

[NCC-1701D]

I have read the GB threads and this thread..

So how did NMYMIRR pay Tamoske?

People on Prime paid NMYMIRR via paypal, cash or cheque.

Did NMYMIRR pay Tamoske buy paypal, and/or internation money order?

I read that NMYMIRR stated he was going to send an international money order and I have read NMYMIRR stated paypal transactions.

 

[RSO 34]

There are problems with your analogy.

I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into an attempt to provide a complete legal education but I believe you are incorrect on many levels, especially the attempt to claim my analogy is inapposite simply because Tamoske is in a foreign country. That is simply a jurisdictional issue.

I don't have anything to be bitter about, I just took business law in college.

Well you got me on that one. I confess I never took business law in college.

However, and I don't point this out to be elitist but simply to introduce myself since we do not know each other. I do possess a Doctor of Jurisprudence degree from a top 25 American law school, am licensed to practice in the states of New York and New Jersey as well as the Federal Courts for the Southern and Eastern Districts of NY, the District of NJ, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit and the United States Supreme Court. I also have 23 years practicing as a civil litigator/trial attorney with an emphasis, in part, on products liability.

With that being said, I feel confident that based upon the background facts provided surrounding this failed transaction that NMYMIRR is not liable financially or under a products liability perspective for everyone somewhat inexplicably sending money to Lithuania before one product had even been made. Think about it, NMYMIRR acted on behalf of Prime members to collect their money and send it to a foreign country where Tamoske was going to have possession of 100% of the funds. He had nothing to ship since he was not going to produce anything until he had all of the money. I don't think a college business law class would say that is secure transaction.

But of course, opinions may differ, your mileage may vary, and all of the rest of the standard disclaimers apply. Heck, even 1 out of 5 dentists apparently always disagrees with the other 80% of the profession.

And now back to your regular programming......

 

[yellow-scorpion]

I didn't realize you were not part of the GB. Now I am even more annoyed at your comments below directed to NMYMIRR since you have no personal stake in the transaction and yet you have the temerity to suggest that NMYMIRR is somehow legally responsible and/or not doing enough to get money back.

Instead of pointing the finger at a Prime member who simply volunteered to collect money and whose motto will now become "no good deed goes unpunished", why don't you take the lead and get the money back from Lithuania?

So only those who have a stake in the transaction can speak? If you get into a horrible car wreck you want me to just drive by because I wasn't involved? You seem like a great person... And now YOU want me to be the middle man to reclaim the money? I don't think you've learned what happened. Don't make this about me. If you can help in anyway to recover the funds than do it. But what I get from U is that I should create another prime account tell everyone I have a guy in Iraq that makes great ash trays and to send me money and no one can touch me? I should quit my day job.

 

[RSO 34]

So only those who have a stake in the transaction can speak?

Absolutely not. I applaud anyone for volunteering to help out another member of our NSX family in any time of "need". Over the years I estimate I have provided free legal assistance to over 50 members and encourage all to help out where and when they can depending upon their backgrounds and abilities.

What I do take issue with is the well-intentioned but misguided focus on NMYMIRR as the "solution" when he is merely being made a scapegoat without a legal basis upon which to place liability/blame for this train wreck of a GB.

I singled you out because you singled NMYMIRR out as a potential "target" at whom the first shots should be fired. I firmly believe he is being targeted unfairly and unless and until someone provides evidence that he was/is part of some conspiracy with Tamokse to steal from our community then I will continue to defend him. I will also point out that I don't know who NMYMIRR is and am not sure if I have ever met him but I will continue to stand up against what I believe is an unfair attack.

 

[RSO 34]

What do you think would happen if someone was injured by using this product?

They would have absolutely no legal recourse whatsoever. That is an inherent risk in dealing with a foreign based individual with no experience in manufacturing or business management rather than an American/multinational corporation.

 

[steveny]

one word...Escrow!

 

[NMYMIRR]

Please read ALL the posts before responding.

You should take your own advice before you run your mouth (in your case stop being a keyboard RAMBO unless you've read everything and know the actual facts and truth of the matter!

My main goal was to pressure Tamoske in doing so the middle man felt pressured. This was a fault of mine since I hadn't read each post on the original group buy and didn't know who the middle man was.

Well, you're not pressuring him (Tamoske) now are you. You just have to find a scapegoat to place blame since Tamoske is not here to take your HITS? Yeah, you think that I'm a easy target that will just lay down and take hits from you? Who the HELL are you anyways? I don't know you and you certainly don't know who I am, so what gives? Who died and made you KING all of a sudden? Again, you should know the facts before you start placing blame!!

Everytime I saw NMYMIRR posts I thought he was also in the group buy.

Again, there you go running the keyboad of your NOT KNOWING THE FACTS. Now how in the hell did you think I was or wasn't in or bought into the GB? You have some kind of magic crystal ball I should be aware of? Oh, oh I forgot, your ASSUMPTION are always dead on. If you must know I was/is part of the (2) GBs involve and have $1200 into them, just to clarify things. I like everyone else here have just as much to loose. So don't put me out like I'm in collusion with Tamoske. Again, know the facts before you start playing the blame game and add fuel to the fire.

It amazes me why no one else wants to help those that were taken? Use the internet to aid us. Should we just close the thread and let the GB people suffer?

Have you even thought about your improper, misleading & false blame game you've been trying to place on me. It could be that the majority DOESN'T agree with you. There are those who knows the right from wrong, and it's appearant and obvious you're in your own little island of WRONG! I've just about had enough of your antics. JUST STEP THE HELL OFF and find someone else to beat on!

 

[01blacks4]

OMG, you all are WHINERS...comparing this to a car wreck, etc etc....

wasnt this item like $400 bucks....i am not belittling the issue or the amount, but i sure the hell am not blowing it out of the world like some of you....


$400..thats like a really nice dinner and some wine with your wife....damn let the guy make his parts.....i am sure its his first time, he will figure it out. and probably make good on his promise. most people eventually do.


i cant believe you are saying things like "sue" and "class-action"

i can beleive you would go after the paypal link, who is a strong member of the forum...(why the hell would you think he didnt live in the states?)



man......
i am amazed how upset some of you are over this.....

 

[docjohn]

One mans 400 is anothers 4000 is anothers 40000.BTW if I read correctly one customer is into Lithuania for 16000,not trivial.

 

[NMYMIRR]

Absolutely not. I applaud anyone for volunteering to help out another member of our NSX family in any time of "need". Over the years I estimate I have provided free legal assistance to over 50 members and encourage all to help out where and when they can depending upon their backgrounds and abilities.

What I do take issue with is the well-intentioned but misguided focus on NMYMIRR as the "solution" when he is merely being made a scapegoat without a legal basis upon which to place liability/blame for this train wreck of a GB.

I singled you out because you singled NMYMIRR out as a potential "target" at whom the first shots should be fired. I firmly believe he is being targeted unfairly and unless and until someone provides evidence that he was/is part of some conspiracy with Tamokse to steal from our community then I will continue to defend him. I will also point out that I don't know who NMYMIRR is and am not sure if I have ever met him but I will continue to stand up against what I believe is an unfair attack.

I really appreciate that you see and have reviewed the facts before you, and came to my defense. There are some that are more leveled headed then others. I have noticed over the years here being a Prime member.... That you're one of the more leveled headed, articulate and fair person here since I've join this forum. I'm not just saying this because you're helping me sort this whole thing out. It's because it the TRUTH. Others here have to be more genuine and truth before making a judgement of sort. Anyone that knows me personally can vouch for me as a person and of my character. I have never, ever been unfair or try to step on others here to get a head. That's just not me or my character. I just wanted to thank you RSO 34.

 

[01blacks4]

One mans 400 is anothers 4000 is anothers 40000.BTW if I read correctly one customer is into Lithuania for 16000,not trivial.

agreed, but after all the time spent complaining, stressing and sue to get the $00 back, its now worth $000. how much is your time worth?

and lithuania OWES the 16K, it was not given to him.

 

[Quix-Draw]

It's probably just important as individuals to remember not to invest any more than you can afford to lose. Most of us know what it's like (or have heard what it's like) going to Vegas...let alone Las Vegaslov...
I imagine most of the Eastern Bloc "States" had a rough transition to "Country-hood" and many people are still trying to find their niche. Let's just hope things pan out over there... Hopefully they will and this will all be for naught...
We should also keep in mind, that as exotic and revered as most of us hold our 'babys', the automotive aftermarket moves on, concentrating their current efforts on recent and new models. Older models saturate out. Many vendors have come and gone customizing parts over the 14-year lifespan of the NSX, and at this point, 3 years out of production, anyone still willing to roll up their sleeves, dream a little, RnD, mock and test their brainchild in their off-hours and end up making car 'jewelry' for us in their (longer) off-hours, should probably be thanked a little more at some level, given a little more slack at some level, and tempered with a little more caution at our level.
I venture to say that in the quest to make each of our own cars a standout, most of us seek the opportunity to play that "Yeah, but I just picked up a low-run, custom,..." card. It's a tempting market to think of the next "pet-rock" for. Especially with the clear majority of Primers being trusting folks thinking that anyone who would "want to think of an alias, unique avatar and affiliate with such an awesome forum site" should 'share the same owners passion' and be trustworthy as well.
But for every 25 wolves that really love to play with sheep because they floss their teeth, there's unfortunately probably one that still only likes to dress like one just to...

 

[jagtiger]

I'm surprised that until now nobody is saying anything on how much is involved in this transaction? Anybody has an idea? With due respect to NMYMIRR - Why not share this information?

 

[scorp965]

I'm surprised that until now nobody is saying anything on how much is involved in this transaction? Anybody has an idea? With due respect to NMYMIRR - Why not share this information?

2 Group Buys for consoles, 1 Group Buy for door inserts, as well as my project, close to $50k would be my guess.

 

[jagtiger]

However, and I don't point this out to be elitist but simply to introduce myself since we do not know each other. I do possess a Doctor of Jurisprudence degree from a top 25 American law school, am licensed to practice in the states of New York and New Jersey as well as the Federal Courts for the Southern and Eastern Districts of NY, the District of NJ, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit and the United States Supreme Court. I also have 23 years practicing as a civil litigator/trial attorney with an emphasis, in part, on products liability.

RSO 34 - Impressive background but still I can't believe that a middleman cannot be held liable for accepting payment without any legal implications?

So does this means that if I volunteered to accept deposit/payments from 30 buyers here in behalf of tamoske (- let's just say a total of $30k -)?With Tamoske's promise to manufacture/deliver the goods at a reasonable time - I took his word and sent him the money. But after 2 months he disappeared - no product - no Tamoske. Then what?
Are you saying that the buyers cannot go after me??

 

[RSO 34]

RSO 34 - Impressive background but still I can't believe that a middleman cannot be held liable for accepting payment without any legal implications?

So does this means that if I volunteered to accept deposit/payments from 30 buyers here in behalf of tamoske (- let's just say a total of $30k -)?With Tamoske's promise to manufacture/deliver the goods at a reasonable time - I took his word and sent him the money. But after 2 months he disappeared - no product - no Tamoske. Then what?
Are you saying that the buyers cannot go after me??

The "confusion" here with questions of who may be liable is with the mislabeling of NMYMIRR as an "agent" of Tamoske. NMYMIRR initially was simply a customer in the GB. As a member of the community as well as the GB, NMYMIRR ultimately agreed to act on behalf of other members to collect their funds via his personal Paypal account and do a bulk transfer of those monies to Tamoske.

Although my "analogies" have been criticized and dissected by at least one other member, as was his prerogative albeit I believe done incorrectly, NMYMIRR merely did what many of us do in similar situations. For example, with the American LeMans series one of us always acts as the point person to collect the money and forward it to the IMSA reps for the ticket purchase. If the track does not send the tickets, our point person is not liable and only the track would be. Whether that funds transfer for the ALMS tickets is done via mail or through the point person's Paypal account used for the convenience of other members/attendees would make no difference.

The only thing different here is the ability to recoup "losses". In the case of the ALMS (or with the hypothetical restaurant in my earlier analogy), there would be a party against whom legal action could be taken fairly easily based upon venue. Specifically, we would have some entity in the States over whom our Courts would have jurisdiction.

This entire situation is complicated by the fact that Tamoske is in Lithuania and it is virtually impossible to be able to pursue him in our Courts let alone execute on any potential judgment against him. Look at how difficult it has been for members ripped off by Dali to try to get their money back and he is only in California.

Now if NMYMIRR had agreed to be an actual distributor for Tamoske in the States then the scenario may have different potential liabilities, both financially and from a products liability analysis. However, he did not have that relationship herein and did nothing more than, unfortunately, volunteer to assist his fellow GB members to collect their money and send it with his own in one transfer to Tamoske.

The inability to obtain jurisdiction over a foreign individual does not shift liability to someone who merely collected and forwarded funds on behalf of other members of the GB together with his own monies for his personal purchase simply because he is in the States.

Please stop focusing on NMYMIRR, a victim himself of Tamoske's ineptitude at best and thievery at worst, understand that a risk was assumed by all of non-delivery and hope that something good will come out of this.

 

[steveny]

I am not part of the group buy. I have been following this whole ordeal from day one. I am a pretty good judge of character though. It's pretty much what my days consist of is shifting through all the bullshit and finding what is true.

IMO. Tomoske at first had good intentions, maybe his intentions were never really bad. At some point I think he realized he was loosing money building these consoles. He has stated over and over he has had problems with manufacturing. I think he ended up ruining a lot of product and the consoles he did send out he lost money on.

Anyone who has received a console at this point should consider themselves lucky. Anyone who hasn't received their product is screwed. You guys will most likely, 99.999999% certain, will never get your product and never get your money back. Even in the US you would have a difficult time retrieving your money across state lines how do you think you will fair in another country?

To all those who are ready to go after Tomoske, even after saying what I have said, this is the camp I would be in if I were part of the GB. As for the guys giving him chance after chance, well you guys are a lot more lenient then I would be, but then again me being the one who shifts through BS I would guess you are hoping Tomoske is reading the thread and that if he is actually going to send out parts you will get yours first by being his cheerleader. After you were to get said parts you would cheer his praises more and he could buy some more time.

As for the middleman, well I don't know how the laws work but I know from my perspective, I am the middleman in a lot of transactions daily, those transactions are NEVER done at cost and that is to cover these exact situations when people flake. I know as the middleman I am responsible to see that what I have paid for with someone else's money is completed or it is my ass. This is a little different situation as I do it for a business and the middleman here was simply trying to help out.

There is no way I would have sent money over seas. Especially to a country like Lithuania. I may have escrowed the money and released it as items were shipped. I would have never released all of it. Not even if a bunch of shipments left all at once. I would have made it clear to ship out product so it arrived and boxes could be opened and product inspected 2 or 3 boxes a day at most. Who is to know if empty boxes got shipped?

All in all it is a pretty cheap lesson at 400 bucks each, except for the guy who sent 16k. Well 16k is a lot of money for most people it is enough money for me to buy a plane ticket and a billy club, just on the principle part. I would bet a bit of money if some research is done... production on the consoles stopped just about the time that 16k payment hit Tomoske's account. He is most likely a young guy making a few of the first consoles in his garage, not a factory. He most likely has no one working for him or helping him. He is in over his head but at this point he has the money.

 

[RSO 34]

As for the middleman, well I don't know how the laws work but I know from my perspective, I am the middleman in a lot of transactions daily, those transactions are NEVER done at cost and that is to cover these exact situations when people flake. I know as the middleman I am responsible to see that what I have paid for with someone else's money is completed or it is my ass. This is a little different situation as I do it for a business and the middleman here was simply trying to help out.

That is correct - this is a different situation. NMYMIRR was not doing this as a business but as a fellow purchaser in the GB.

 

[steveny]

That is correct - this is a different situation. NMYMIRR was not doing this as a business but as a fellow purchaser in the GB.

It would be like a client leaving a retainer at your office and the attorney who started the case gets fired and now the client has lost the retainer. No! Someone else from the office would step in for the guy who got fired.

It's more like the secretary collects money to go get everyone lunch and gets mugged half way to the deli. Who the hell is going to ask her for the money back?


The price for the item is way cheaper then it should have been in the first place guys.

 

[Red]

OK, there seem to be men and children here (If you're offended by my reference to calling some here children then I meant to offend you since you're likely the child)

A member did a favour for the group - period. He wasn't an agent, and, I assume since he took the money at cost, he didn't intend to profit.

Now, I'm gonna do you all a favour - for a living, I "take people who don't pay's shit"

I'm gonna see if I have some connections in Lithuania (I know I have in Ukraine, Russia, Serbia, Romania and Moldova - I've just never called on anyone in Lithuania)

They will go and get your money - even if he doesn't have it, I'm sure his relatives will pay.

Tell me you want this and I'll start the ball rolling - the one thing I'll say: I personally, don't like this type of collection work and know I will not control these "collectors" - they will also want a percentage (They're not my cousins)

Are you up for it?

 

[4AU4LIFE]

First of all let me state that I'm not in this GB. I was however in his original attempt at a GB for center consoles. It didn't get drug out as bad as the latest ones have but it was still pretty bad. I made it my mission to constantly question, ask, pester, email, PM and whatever else I could think of to get the production moving faster. I got a lot of folks pretty mad at me for doing that but you know what....IT WORKED !!!! We got our product.
What I'm trying to get at is as long as there are people that are giving him a pass, patting him on the back and telling him to take as long as he needs then guess what, HE WILL !!! EVERYONE involved needs to band together and make an all out assault on contacting him in every possible way to get this thing finished. All for one and one for All !!!