Timing belt failure??
- Thread starter gs963
- Start date
In answer to NSXGMS's last post directed at me.
I was hoping this would stay on a respectfully cordial basis, but that was wishful thinking. I feel like I'm discussing global warming with Al Gore. He has the same self righteous intolerance for an opposing viewpoint that you appear to have. So....here we go again.
Your words from your first post on this thread: The consensus is that they appear to be more sensitive to time than to mileage but that is not a hard-and-fast rule.
How is this not a hard-and-fast rule with all your anecdotal evidence? Could it be because like mine, there have been many units that have gone well in excess of the time limit without failure? You had it right the first time that this isn't a hard and fast rule, but why belittle me for excepting this evidence? Is it only anecdotal evidence when it supports your position?
Another: I have never, ever heard of one case of a TB failure that was within the pre-maintenance window that wasn't precipitated by a water pump failure. I'm sure it's happened but it's extremely rare. I have heard of plenty of TB failures of timing belts older than 7 years and under 90K miles.
Exactly what number would "plenty" be? Unless I'm not finding them, there are less than a handful listed on Prime. Even two handfuls pales to the number of units beyond the time limit without failure. Of course, I can't substantiate that but I don't really think you can either. I'm sure you also have anecdotal evidence that will support your position that these were units where the owner neglected to change the water pump. Sounds like we might have a water pump problem to me. Why isn't this included on the maintenance schedule? Since the Honda engineers have all the answers, it is amazing to me they missed this one. Perhaps they aren't infallible.
Another: If you're speaking about basis your statement about tracked NSXs' timing belts having less life than non-tracked is a perfect example of a baseless statement. There is absolutely no evidence to support this.
And you have anecdotal evidence that supports the contrary? Why can't I make the wild assumption that driving an NSX to it's limits several weekends a year would be much harder on every component of the car and engine, including the timing belt? And that is totally baseless to you? If so, please provide the anecdotal evidence to convince me otherwise or perhaps you track your NSX and hope this isn't true. Hmmmm.
Another: I stated, as many others did, that you can't derive any accurate information from a visual inspection alone.
I do have to clarify my position on this as you continually come back to it. I should have expounded further. As a business owner in the business of designing and developing, then marketing products, I do know just a little about design criteria and test standards of products. I assure you the Honda engineers ran many tests on this engine and all of it's components while in development. Certainly, an endurance test would have been among them. I would also say they did several tests on each individual component like the timing belt. If you are of the opinion that the suggested maintenance interval on the timing belt is even close to it's design limit, you know nothing at all about engineering. Since I do have at least four items I designed still flying around on Air Force C5B cargo planes, I think I can speak from a position of experience about such things. On my own products, I design a minimum use rating of three times my recommended user rating. This is not uncommon in engineering circles with items for public consumption. I absolutely do not know what design criteria Honda engineers used to base their recommended maintenance schedule but rest assured they do not expect failure even close to the listed mileage and time. Again, unbased assumption I know, but mine to make when it came to my NSX. I also had the opinion of my Acura dealership technician that has worked on my car since day one. Of course since his opinion is opposite of your stance, his opinion is worthless and irresponsible while your's is based on all the Acura technicians you have consulted on this matter. Sounds like another irrefutable anecdotal bit of evidence to me! Hey, they are called opinions for a reason. Let's grant my tech his opinion however foolish in your eyes.
Since you couldn't agree to disagree, let me list the things we do know as fact:
We have my car at 37,215 miles and 15 years old. We have at least a few others listed in this thread that are similar on mileage and time, specifically 20,000 and 17 years, and 26,000 and 17 years. Of course we have the 55,000 at 8 years that failed at 35 mph while trying to save his 72,000 mile clutch if true. A pole on this would be interesting.
Does this have any relevance to whether one should change there belt? Absolutely not! As I've said before, while doing my best to agree with you, it is only prudent to follow the maintenance schedule. There may be many like myself that gambled and won but there are at least some who gambled and lost. That alone substantiates the position to follow the guidelines.
I'm hoping that you perhaps were posting with only the fact that you thought I was going strictly on a visual inspection of my belt. That was only one item I took into consideration and please don't tell me that a visual inspection is inadequate. That is your opinion and mine differs. I was looking for the condition of the rubber and I fully understood that I couldn't see the stress bearing part of the belt which is the fibers inside. I based my assumption of that condition on my knowledge of design safety margins I'm familiar with in every other form of design engineering I have experience with. If the belt rubber had been suspect, I could have made some assumptions about the fiber's condition. Since it didn't, I based my conclusion on my experience with similar circumstances. I have used similar sized cog belts for high speed racing where the belts are subject to 18,000 rpm with a much heavier load than that generated by the valve train of an engine. Of course I don't have the actual data for an NSX engine, but grant me the liberty of making my own assumption.
Here is the most important fact of all that you will not disagree with. The only sure way to be certain the timing belt shouldn't fail is to follow the recommended maintenance interval. Let's also agree that the water pump and the idler pulley should be changed as well along with all the drive belts. You hadn't mention the idler pulley once in all of your posts and it is at least as important as the water pump.
Now can we just get along and in your own words....
Let's all stick to the established service intervals shall we?
P.S. You really don't have to respond to my questions in the above text unless, as I fear, you have to have the last word. :wink:
I was hoping this would stay on a respectfully cordial basis, but that was wishful thinking. I feel like I'm discussing global warming with Al Gore. He has the same self righteous intolerance for an opposing viewpoint that you appear to have. So....here we go again.
Your words from your first post on this thread: The consensus is that they appear to be more sensitive to time than to mileage but that is not a hard-and-fast rule.
How is this not a hard-and-fast rule with all your anecdotal evidence? Could it be because like mine, there have been many units that have gone well in excess of the time limit without failure? You had it right the first time that this isn't a hard and fast rule, but why belittle me for excepting this evidence? Is it only anecdotal evidence when it supports your position?
Another: I have never, ever heard of one case of a TB failure that was within the pre-maintenance window that wasn't precipitated by a water pump failure. I'm sure it's happened but it's extremely rare. I have heard of plenty of TB failures of timing belts older than 7 years and under 90K miles.
Exactly what number would "plenty" be? Unless I'm not finding them, there are less than a handful listed on Prime. Even two handfuls pales to the number of units beyond the time limit without failure. Of course, I can't substantiate that but I don't really think you can either. I'm sure you also have anecdotal evidence that will support your position that these were units where the owner neglected to change the water pump. Sounds like we might have a water pump problem to me. Why isn't this included on the maintenance schedule? Since the Honda engineers have all the answers, it is amazing to me they missed this one. Perhaps they aren't infallible.
Another: If you're speaking about basis your statement about tracked NSXs' timing belts having less life than non-tracked is a perfect example of a baseless statement. There is absolutely no evidence to support this.
And you have anecdotal evidence that supports the contrary? Why can't I make the wild assumption that driving an NSX to it's limits several weekends a year would be much harder on every component of the car and engine, including the timing belt? And that is totally baseless to you? If so, please provide the anecdotal evidence to convince me otherwise or perhaps you track your NSX and hope this isn't true. Hmmmm.
Another: I stated, as many others did, that you can't derive any accurate information from a visual inspection alone.
I do have to clarify my position on this as you continually come back to it. I should have expounded further. As a business owner in the business of designing and developing, then marketing products, I do know just a little about design criteria and test standards of products. I assure you the Honda engineers ran many tests on this engine and all of it's components while in development. Certainly, an endurance test would have been among them. I would also say they did several tests on each individual component like the timing belt. If you are of the opinion that the suggested maintenance interval on the timing belt is even close to it's design limit, you know nothing at all about engineering. Since I do have at least four items I designed still flying around on Air Force C5B cargo planes, I think I can speak from a position of experience about such things. On my own products, I design a minimum use rating of three times my recommended user rating. This is not uncommon in engineering circles with items for public consumption. I absolutely do not know what design criteria Honda engineers used to base their recommended maintenance schedule but rest assured they do not expect failure even close to the listed mileage and time. Again, unbased assumption I know, but mine to make when it came to my NSX. I also had the opinion of my Acura dealership technician that has worked on my car since day one. Of course since his opinion is opposite of your stance, his opinion is worthless and irresponsible while your's is based on all the Acura technicians you have consulted on this matter. Sounds like another irrefutable anecdotal bit of evidence to me! Hey, they are called opinions for a reason. Let's grant my tech his opinion however foolish in your eyes.
Since you couldn't agree to disagree, let me list the things we do know as fact:
We have my car at 37,215 miles and 15 years old. We have at least a few others listed in this thread that are similar on mileage and time, specifically 20,000 and 17 years, and 26,000 and 17 years. Of course we have the 55,000 at 8 years that failed at 35 mph while trying to save his 72,000 mile clutch if true. A pole on this would be interesting.
Does this have any relevance to whether one should change there belt? Absolutely not! As I've said before, while doing my best to agree with you, it is only prudent to follow the maintenance schedule. There may be many like myself that gambled and won but there are at least some who gambled and lost. That alone substantiates the position to follow the guidelines.
I'm hoping that you perhaps were posting with only the fact that you thought I was going strictly on a visual inspection of my belt. That was only one item I took into consideration and please don't tell me that a visual inspection is inadequate. That is your opinion and mine differs. I was looking for the condition of the rubber and I fully understood that I couldn't see the stress bearing part of the belt which is the fibers inside. I based my assumption of that condition on my knowledge of design safety margins I'm familiar with in every other form of design engineering I have experience with. If the belt rubber had been suspect, I could have made some assumptions about the fiber's condition. Since it didn't, I based my conclusion on my experience with similar circumstances. I have used similar sized cog belts for high speed racing where the belts are subject to 18,000 rpm with a much heavier load than that generated by the valve train of an engine. Of course I don't have the actual data for an NSX engine, but grant me the liberty of making my own assumption.
Here is the most important fact of all that you will not disagree with. The only sure way to be certain the timing belt shouldn't fail is to follow the recommended maintenance interval. Let's also agree that the water pump and the idler pulley should be changed as well along with all the drive belts. You hadn't mention the idler pulley once in all of your posts and it is at least as important as the water pump.
Now can we just get along and in your own words....
Let's all stick to the established service intervals shall we?
P.S. You really don't have to respond to my questions in the above text unless, as I fear, you have to have the last word. :wink:
Pmartjr, I think you have a good point or points. Hard to argue with your position.Well put!!
Honestly, I've spent a fair amount of time over the years reading other people's posts and many have been helpful on many subjects. I really did start trying to find answers to this timing belt issue as my car aged and could never find any posts that were told from a first person perspective. Even if you look now, there are none I could find that are much over two years old and I was looking before that. From time to time, I would search for this subject with no first hand experience. Everything seemed to be from a "heard it from someone else" type scenario. I've already written about why I chose to "push my luck" as it were. I would gladly offer my old belt up for a destructive test compared to a new belt if someone were so inclined. In fact, if someone will buy the new belt, I'll make a test station to test the tensile strength of both belts. A belt failure is ultimately going to be from reaching it's breaking point due to stretching which occurs with use. I'm sorry, but I just can't completely buy into the time theory. However, there can certainly be environmental circumstances that could have an adverse effect on some belts. As I have written previously, I know my car, where it's been and how it's been treated from day one. If every bit of visible rubber on this car is virtually like new, why would I assume the timing belt had seen some rubber deteriorating elements? Why would I assume the nylon fibers in the belt are even worse off than the rubber and why would I assume that a belt designed for 90,000 plus miles of use had stretched to it's breaking point in 37,000 miles? As I have said, I'm very analytical and did not make the postponement decision lightly. I gathered every bit of information I could find and made a logical decision based on my experience and common sense. I know that is not in line with other members who regard that as irresponsible. The fact remains: 37,215 miles and 15 years which is 2.5 times past the original time limit.
That said, I am also at peace with my car now as I've said and can drive with total confidence concerning not only my timing belt but the water pump and idler pulley bearings. So as I've said, I've had a change of heart as well and fully recommend following the time interval recommendation. I honestly am far more concerned with the possibility of the water pump bearings or the idler bearings going out than I am the belt failing.
So the answer to your post is, I didn't have anything I thought anyone would want to read until now. I posted because the information I posted was the kind of first hand information I was looking for when I was searching this subject, good or bad. I wasn't looking for a debate or arguments.
I actually do have an interesting story and information about the radio and door speakers. Perhaps I should find that thread and make that post. I'm not sure I want to open myself up for more personal abuse and ridicule however. Apparently having an opinion is not appropriate for the Prime forums.
Please do post on the radio's and door speakers. Its probably all been shared before but anyone thats been around these cars that long should contribute what they can.
Sorry for being a bit hard on you. Being from Ohio and all :wink:
Its interesting I would think that with your experience and knowledge that you would be on the far other side of this debate like me.
And, I should not I am willing to wager that there are quite a few broken timing belts over the years that never got reported to this site. And thats just the folks ON this site. Think of the thousands of cars out there that aren't.
Sorry for being a bit hard on you. Being from Ohio and all :wink:
Its interesting I would think that with your experience and knowledge that you would be on the far other side of this debate like me.
And, I should not I am willing to wager that there are quite a few broken timing belts over the years that never got reported to this site. And thats just the folks ON this site. Think of the thousands of cars out there that aren't.
I'll do that as my situation has never been posted that I could find. Which thread would you recomment or do I start a new thread somehow?
No problem. In my business I would love to be able to call a jerk a jerk when it's seems appropriate. But I don't and remain respectful.
Just like Heartbeat, I'm just too logical to take everything as the holy grail. I already listed why I made my decision as I did, so I won't list it again.
I wouldn't take that bet and there may be plenty, but I can tell you this...no Acura dealer in SW Ohio had heard of one back when I was first passing my time limit. And to my knowledge, none on Prime either at the time.
I'm not a Honda Designer, Engineer or Mechanic, so I stick with what the pros tell me.
So, the question is. How long can you really go w/o chaning the belt? The answer is: do you have enough money to replace the engine if you go past the schedule? Maybe only 1 in a 100 break? You want to be that 1?
So, the question is. How long can you really go w/o chaning the belt? The answer is: do you have enough money to replace the engine if you go past the schedule? Maybe only 1 in a 100 break? You want to be that 1?
I don't know--but rather than the whole belt severing, a common failure mode is for a few teeth in a row to come off, which stops the show just as decisively. That's how the one timing belt I've ever broken failed (on a Toyota, at about 50% over the recommended mile limit).
I want to commend pmarts for having the guts to speak out against the common beliefs and opinions. I do not have his skills at writing long essays. Two of my radio speaker amplifiers have been replaced at $200 each so any new information would be welcome.
From the suggestions in this forum I interviewed our local Acura dealer certified mechanic. He has replaced several NSX belts but has never seen one break. Also there was no answer on the shelf life of a new belt. The estimate for a new belt and water pump was~$1700. I will obtain another estimate. By the way they know of an 1991 NSX that has 386,000 miles with only engine gaskets replaced due to oil leaks (plus belts).
The fact still remains that I have saved $3400 by not changing the belt every 6 years.
From the suggestions in this forum I interviewed our local Acura dealer certified mechanic. He has replaced several NSX belts but has never seen one break. Also there was no answer on the shelf life of a new belt. The estimate for a new belt and water pump was~$1700. I will obtain another estimate. By the way they know of an 1991 NSX that has 386,000 miles with only engine gaskets replaced due to oil leaks (plus belts).
The fact still remains that I have saved $3400 by not changing the belt every 6 years.
I've done my best to stay out of this thread but this sentence has me curious.
If and when you do sell your NSX, will you be so proud to state this on your ad or will you just lie and say that the car has been maintained properly according to Honda's requirements?
Idea!
Why don't we each contribute $100 each year into a pool and that should cover engine repairs to whomever's T-Belt fails first (no racing or tracking). Then we would know how long 1 belt would last.
While this sounds ludicrous, maybe it is so brilliant it just blew everone's mind!
Miner
Why don't we each contribute $100 each year into a pool and that should cover engine repairs to whomever's T-Belt fails first (no racing or tracking). Then we would know how long 1 belt would last.
While this sounds ludicrous, maybe it is so brilliant it just blew everone's mind!
Miner
I am an Acura certified technician, even though I have never seen a timing belt break on a NSX. I know what a broken timing belt can do to the engine and the wallet.(seen plenty of cars towed in with broken t-belt) First thing I did when I bought my NSX was changing the timing belt, water pump.(It was 12 yrs old at the time) I know it is cheaper to do preventive maintenance than catastrophic repair later. YMMV
Maybe I should tell my customers not to change the timing belt and just wait until it breaks, then I get to do motor replacement. This way customer will save money by not doing this every 6 yrs. and maybe the belt won't break. and when it does break, customer has already save enough money by not replace the timing belt, they can just replace the motor with the money saved. Sounds like win-win situation. :wink:
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i love this post ,read it every morning, everyone has valid points, now heres my story, bought 97 spa yellow , 85k miles, original owner, every piece of documentation from new,all ser. records, dlr ser only,but t/b was not done,
i have been changing t/b/s since days of vegas,pintos & sabras(most wont know what these are) . turned off motor and stipped down to timing belt with out turning motor to see how belt layed, there was slack between cams(told Larry B ,he doubted it ,but i know what i saw ,i think he believed me after i gave him a impact wrench that would remove crank pulley bolts) water pump could be turned easily by hand, close inspection showed wear on the drive side of the cogs, water pump was perfect ,mechanical seal & bearing, tensioner bearing no binding,. called Tim at ray laks ,got all new parts ,everything is good
what all this B/S mean ,nothing, just put my little wife in the car ,rod stewart in the trunk ,then hit the road (yeah i know but she loves rod)
i have been changing t/b/s since days of vegas,pintos & sabras(most wont know what these are) . turned off motor and stipped down to timing belt with out turning motor to see how belt layed, there was slack between cams(told Larry B ,he doubted it ,but i know what i saw ,i think he believed me after i gave him a impact wrench that would remove crank pulley bolts) water pump could be turned easily by hand, close inspection showed wear on the drive side of the cogs, water pump was perfect ,mechanical seal & bearing, tensioner bearing no binding,. called Tim at ray laks ,got all new parts ,everything is good
what all this B/S mean ,nothing, just put my little wife in the car ,rod stewart in the trunk ,then hit the road (yeah i know but she loves rod)
As I stated I don't plan on selling my NSX and I would not lie. My car is in perfect shape (20,000 miles) and if I did sell I am sure the timing belt would have been replaced. As long as it was replaced within the last six years before the sale it makes absolutely no difference if it was not replaced the previous 17+ years since there was no engine damage.
Has anyone ever heard of a brand new timing belt failure following a replacement service? Could it happen?
Anything can happen but the chances of that happening are pretty small.
The only cases I am aware of where an NSX timing belt has failed prematurely is when the water pump fails which is why replacement of the WP is strongly recommended when the TB is replaced.
Besides, I would imagine there would be some recourse since most all shops have a warranty on parts and labor for up to a year or 10k or 12k miles or more. If a recently installed TB breaks on the way home from the shop after being replaced I'm sure the shop is on the hook to some degree.
I am the third owner of a 1991 that was first purchased from Jay Wolfe Acura, Kansas City, MO 11-16-90. I just had the timing belt / water pump and 60k service performed 04-25-09 for the first time in the cars history.
The car is over 19 years old with about 15,500 original miles. I have owned it for about two years and had both the intent and money to have the service done sooner but when I contacted the local service centers I was more afraid of letting them touch my car than I was of the timing belt breaking.
I became a member of prime and asked for help finding a service provider. The first member that responded basically told me that I was stupid and I should have thought about servicing my car before I bought it. I really like my car and wanted help. I received the help from another prime member.
My point is that people may have reasons for doing things that you don't agree with or understand. It's OK to voice your opinion but try to do it without making a personal attack.
The car is over 19 years old with about 15,500 original miles. I have owned it for about two years and had both the intent and money to have the service done sooner but when I contacted the local service centers I was more afraid of letting them touch my car than I was of the timing belt breaking.
I became a member of prime and asked for help finding a service provider. The first member that responded basically told me that I was stupid and I should have thought about servicing my car before I bought it. I really like my car and wanted help. I received the help from another prime member.
My point is that people may have reasons for doing things that you don't agree with or understand. It's OK to voice your opinion but try to do it without making a personal attack.
I'm sorry to hear that you felt personally attacked--clearly this happened in a different thread since I don't think there's any of that here, certainly towards you.
My only response to you would be that I hope you've found a shop that you trust more than the first one and that you carefully consider the risks and rewards of postponing a service that could cost you your engine.
All I'll say is that NSX timing belts have broken with both less than 90,000 miles and before 7 years. The only cases I know of where a TB has failed before both of those conditions have been met is because of a water pump failure.
Since timing belts have broken due to both excessive mileage and excessive age and I've not seen any actual scientific evidence pointing to one criteria being any less important than another it seems to me there's absolutely no reason to qualify or disregard Honda's recommendation on timing belt replacement. I've spoken to enough experts to satisfy me that a timing belt's remaining life can't be determined by a visual inspection and the risks are too great to me to postpone this service resulting in very little savings over the long term.
Just to respond here... when my small oil filter cooler coolant hose burst a few years ago, I had recently inspected all of the coolant hoses. I knew that all the hoses were original (1991 #332) except the main ones as I have all the service records. The one hose that burst also looks brand new except for the large split down the middle. No cracks, no deformation (except the split) and no real visual or external indication that it was on its last legs. It just burst when I was driving to the mall to go shopping.
I suggest removing the oil cooler when replacing that hose and get a new gasket. It took me almost 4 hours of struggling to replace it with the oil cooler left on.
I'm in the middle of doing my timing belt and the belt came in a sealed air tight bag. I cannot "scientifically" prove this, but I'm guessing that a sealed tbelt on the shelf for many years will likely be in better condition than a tbelt exposed to the elements and driven on an NSX even for a short period of time.
This is my second tbelt and I was overdue for a change last year but I left my car in storage so I did it this year. If you have a good mechanic (and I do) they will communicate their findings. We looked at the belt and it showed no cracks and looked like it was in good condition as well. But guess what? My water pump was leaking. When it came off we could see all the corrosion around the seals.
Further to that, the previous Acura mechanic (I know who it was since I have the service record) CUT the timing belt cover gasket! When we got the timing belt cover out only the top and one corner of the cover had any gasket. The gasket had clean cuts... why would the mechanic cut the gasket? We theorize that the mechanic probably put the tbelt cover back on and the gasket came loose and got caught inside but he didn't realize until everything was put back together. When he realized it, instead of pulling the valve covers off and all the timing belt covers off, he just cut it and pull out as much of the seal as possible. Exposing the bottom of the timing belt to water, dust and dirt. This gasket is an $80 part.
Anyway, the point is, you never know what you are going to find and even if there is nothing wrong, it's a good preventative service to do. I definitely know that I would have had a failure if I left it. How would I have known what was going on inside? Just do it!
Wait a few more years. I finally replaced my timing belt and water pump (17 years old and 20,000 miles) because I bought the parts very reasonably and found a good dealer willing to install them reasonably.
My previous thoughts about a new timing belt sealed in a plastic bag preserving its newness may be incorrect as the new plastic bag had small circular holes punched in it. By the way my old parts appeared in excellent shape, no cracks or leaks.
