This isn't the California penal league.:tongue:
Massa did the best for the team, as he said. I would have loved to see him win, but he is a class act. If Red Bull weren't a bunch of putzes they would be in much better shape.
Miner
The Official 2010 F1 Megathread
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This isn't the California penal league.:tongue:
Massa did the best for the team, as he said. I would have loved to see him win, but he is a class act. If Red Bull weren't a bunch of putzes they would be in much better shape.
Miner
If he was faster, he should have passed, without management intervenience, this is F1, they are supposed to be the best drivers, at the best level, competing, regardless if they are team mates ,,, sucks b/c it was a great weekend for Alonso, this is terrible for the sport, I don't think you understand much about F1 vs politics.
Oscar
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Fully agree. I've hated Alonso for a while and hate him even more so now. The guy is a prick. I hope the FIA come down on him and ferrari as hard as they can.
WTF are you talkin about? Massa gained a 2.5-3 second lead on Alonso after his engineer came on the radio to tell Massa to move his ass or team orders would allow Alonso to pass.
I personally don't think Ferrari was ever going to allow Massa to keep the lead. He slowed, the gap was gone, and than Alonso passed which was all smoke & mirrors in order to mask the team order.
Thats team politics, plain and simple. Massa deserved to win, f*ck Alonso.
Ferrari is doing the same thing to Massa that they did to Rubens Barichello. I can see where they are coming from, but it's still wrong and unfair.
Button staying out on track before pitting helped him out, but not as much as I would have liked.
Ferrari had a great race nonetheless, and they have found some improvement. RBR not looking as dominant anymore. Hopefully McLaren keeps improving. If RBR gets any more wins, I hope it goes to Webber.
Button staying out on track before pitting helped him out, but not as much as I would have liked.
Ferrari had a great race nonetheless, and they have found some improvement. RBR not looking as dominant anymore. Hopefully McLaren keeps improving. If RBR gets any more wins, I hope it goes to Webber.
Sorry, but I think that you are not fallowed much F1 years ago.Alonso is class better driver than Massa what is showed in champ. standings(even no to talk about racing in wet conditions).I have to say also that he is a 2 time world champ.If you think that other teams don't do it you are wrong difference is that they do it in glows(save fuel mode driving...).
Lap times showed who was faster,pole position showed who was faster.
Look whose talking about team orders.What about front wing?
For all guys who denied you'll see that Alonso is fast and it will be faster than Massa in next races.
Massa has speed, but is recovering from a severe accident and is having some difficulty adjusting to this year's tires. He had a great start, and a confidence boosting race, if he had been allowed to finish in his deserved spot he would have approached the next race with almost the same points total as Alonso (Massa 98, Alonso 108), and more confidence in his equipment.
Instead, he and his team within the garage were told they were not allowed to be racers, which could be detrimental to Massa's development. As a fan of Felipe, it bums me quite a bit to see what SD and LDM are doing, Massa is loved in Italy, is passionate about Ferrari and F1, and could become great with a team behind him. He is loyal to Ferrari, which is why he won't let his emotions get away from him, but this is pretty blatant (not just to the sporting audience, but also to FM.) It's pretty obvious SD and LDM won't let Massa be anything but a #2, first with KR and now with FA.
He won't leave, but he may become de-motivated to an extreme degree; you can't even blame him, if he is a #2 what's the point in putting in maximum effort? And now he has an extension until 2012.
Instead, he and his team within the garage were told they were not allowed to be racers, which could be detrimental to Massa's development. As a fan of Felipe, it bums me quite a bit to see what SD and LDM are doing, Massa is loved in Italy, is passionate about Ferrari and F1, and could become great with a team behind him. He is loyal to Ferrari, which is why he won't let his emotions get away from him, but this is pretty blatant (not just to the sporting audience, but also to FM.) It's pretty obvious SD and LDM won't let Massa be anything but a #2, first with KR and now with FA.
He won't leave, but he may become de-motivated to an extreme degree; you can't even blame him, if he is a #2 what's the point in putting in maximum effort? And now he has an extension until 2012.
Re: C'mon Horner, give it a rest.............
And as for Fred and Flippy; it appears that Fred is the better and more aggressive driver. He'll probably be compared to Schumi some day; he'll win several WDC and be as hated as Schumi was in his prime. Flippy's good but not memorably great. Well that's my read this month. Things could change but, in the long run, I think this what Hobbsy will say 2-3 years from now. (But I do hope I'm wrong; I'm pulling for the underdog Flippy)
it was barely a month ago you guys were exposed for team orders and you even made things worse with the embarrassing Vettel-Webber shemozzle. I expected better of you, Christian. Guess I know now. :frown:
And as for Fred and Flippy; it appears that Fred is the better and more aggressive driver. He'll probably be compared to Schumi some day; he'll win several WDC and be as hated as Schumi was in his prime. Flippy's good but not memorably great. Well that's my read this month. Things could change but, in the long run, I think this what Hobbsy will say 2-3 years from now. (But I do hope I'm wrong; I'm pulling for the underdog Flippy)
Just like Webber; finding out the truth after the ink's dry.
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I really don't understand what the big uproar is about. Team orders are banned, but, those who follow F1 know that it still is and probably always will be part of the sport. Sure Massa deserved the win and sure ferarri could have been more subtle. However, Massa is part of a team and Alonso was indeed faster. I guess there's two ways to look at it, Massa was considerate to get off the gas or didn't have the fortitude to pull a Weber. I consider Massa a very good driver, especially with what he went through last year. With that been said, I now know why he may never be world champion.
Click the link, its a lap by lap analysis of the race.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/07/25/german-grand-prix-fastest-laps/
If you uncheck everyone but FM & FA, take a look at the lap times for both from laps 24-39. They plot it as a line graph, it should be pretty easy for anyone to understand who was faster. Massa had a gap of 2.5 to 3 second during laps 24-39.
Lap 24:
FM- 78.646
FA- 79.697
Lap 24 is where the gap was a second.
Red = FASTER
Lap 40 -
FM - 77.56
FA - 77.59
Lap 41 -
FM - 77.71
FA - 77.53
Lap 42 - The gap is still a second
FM - 77.34
FA - 77.37
Lap 43 -
FM - 77.24
FA - 77.26
Lap 44 -
FM - 77.46
FA - 77.26
Lap 45 -
FM - 77.34
FA - 77.43
Lap 46 - the gap is 0.9 seconds
FM - 77.56
FA - 77.66
Lap 47 -
FM - 77.16
FA - 77.01
Lap 48 -
FM - 77.32
FA - 77.27
Lap 49 - Massa relinquishes 1st
FM - 79.103
FA - 77.378
Looks as though they were pretty damn equal to me. Massa had a gap, Alonso only matched his pace and never gained ground until Massa was forced to concede. There was a 2 second time difference between their laps on lap 49...
FA was not even consistently faster than FM after lap 39 (only beat FM on laps 41, 44, 47, & 48), Ferrari basically screwed FM because FA had more points in the drivers standings.
Pretty pathetic IMO...This is reminds me of Singapore 08', Alonso embroiled in another scandal where his team screws their second driver for the benefit of Alonso. If Alonso is so damn talented, why couldn't he get past Massa on his own ability?
Massa will be a champ before that bltch Alonso is ever champ again.
Jack Sparrow did you really think that passing same car in race(mean Ferrari of FA and FM)is so easy.Did you know that if front driver does not do bigger mistake is quite impossible to over take him.FA was quicker 0,2-0,3 sec per lap and to over take must be bigger difference.FM did some better laps bur you can't drive 1 sec behind car for long time because over heating(engine and breaks).Still is visible fastes lap of FA and FM,difference more than 0,25 not bad for same cars.Team must decide from two drivers if they want have world champ. ,for Scuderia is FA.Don't think that others don't have 1. and 2. driver for sure RB have Vettel and McL Hamilton.Like it we or not.
Webber & Vettel have traded positions, Lewis & Jenson have, Schumi & Rosberg have...so yes, it really is easy depending upon the driver.
Hamilton & Vettel would have passed Massa if they were supposedly "faster" and they were in Alonso's position. Alonso couldn't do it because he didn't have the pace, plain and simple.
Dude all you do is make excuses for Alonso because he a countryman of yours...None of your points hold any weight.
So if FA was consistently .2-.3 seconds faster than Massa after Lap 39 (only faster on 4 laps in between laps 40-49) , then FA still had 20+ more laps to pull off the pass without any assistance from the team. Not only would that have legitimized his win but it would have also show cased his abilities.
Another excuse.
Who gives a shit about fastest lap. Its only set towards the end of the race and it means nothing when you think about its weight on the outcome of the race. Jenson Button set fastest lap @ the European GP, does that mean his team should tell Hamilton to give up his position? Does it mean whomever is first should slow down so that Jenson can win?
NO. Teams do not determine who will win the world championship. That outcome is to be decided by the drivers, teams aid in the drivers pursuit of the championship. It is against F1 rules for any team to decide.
The douches in Austria may have a clear favorite in RedBull but they still let the two drivers race and determine for themselves their own outcomes. McLaren plays no favorites, Jenson and Lewis have been equals all season long. Ferrari has been the only team to be so blatant about this bullshit.
Well Sir Jack Sparrow, you've made good points and provided evidence thereof. You are correct, Massa did get screwed. My comment that Alonso was faster stems from the entire weekend. Also a few laps after the start Massa was clearly struggling with Alonso close behind. I don't know if Alonso could have passed on his own ability, but, it sure did look like he could. I suppose with all the foolish mistakes ferarri and Alonso have made so far, they were very adamant about not making any more. As stated by Sandro, driving too close behind another car for long periods is not a good idea. Sure Hamilton makes passing look easy, but it's by no means an easy task, especially when both drivers have similiar skill levels and equipment. I, like you, don't agree with what ferarri did, however, I can understand why.
My last post was deleted, too bad. It was pretty damn epic.
My too!
Sad but true.
Dear Jack,If Batton passed Hamilton how he didn't rest in front of him, I sow that Hamilton win that race and if you listen good you herd that Hamilton was in fuel saver mode so we don't talk about "same car performance".
When I talk about same cars I mean also same miles whit tires you compared Alonso on old tires and Kobayashi on new ones it's not to compared you also tell how Petrov made fastest lap but it was on new soft tires.
In Germany Alonso and Massa had same old tires and it was significant difference of fastest lap.I never said that Alonso set fastest lap but said that Massa doesn't goes under 1.16 lap.
I live few miles from race track so maybe I know something more about.
Will repeat again try go cart whit similar driver like you and tell me how easy is to over take.
I accept your bet I say that Alonso will be in first 3 at the end.
If some one still think that other team's don't have team orders look at www.autosport.com what Webber said about German race and Alonso.
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Another pole for Vettel...hopefully he can hold on to the spot in the race. The RBR pace in qualifying was astonishing.
Those RedBulls are fast! RBR and Ferrari might get investigated though, due to their front wings flexing alot.
If a RedBull wins, I hope it's Mark Webber. Lately, Vettel just seems like a whiny b!tch. I'm also rooting for Flippy, he deserved that win last week, should have been his.
Bummed Button got knocked out in Q2. Hopefully he has a great race and doesn't let Hamilton get that much further away from him in the points.
If a RedBull wins, I hope it's Mark Webber. Lately, Vettel just seems like a whiny b!tch. I'm also rooting for Flippy, he deserved that win last week, should have been his.
Bummed Button got knocked out in Q2. Hopefully he has a great race and doesn't let Hamilton get that much further away from him in the points.
Re: OK, time for the FIA to give up
We know the need for team orders is inevitable. Drivers come and drivers go at the pleasure of the teams who continue on for years, so it's foolish to think the teams will not seek to prevail and control their drivers.
In this last F-1 Debrief, Hobbsy and Steve have finally come out unequivocally to say that team orders are also unpreventable. The FIA has set up the conflict between the WDC and WCC. I mean, this is the real world, so the FIA needs to get past this elementary school playground rule and stop being the laughing stock of hardcore F-1 fans.
We know the need for team orders is inevitable. Drivers come and drivers go at the pleasure of the teams who continue on for years, so it's foolish to think the teams will not seek to prevail and control their drivers.
In this last F-1 Debrief, Hobbsy and Steve have finally come out unequivocally to say that team orders are also unpreventable. The FIA has set up the conflict between the WDC and WCC. I mean, this is the real world, so the FIA needs to get past this elementary school playground rule and stop being the laughing stock of hardcore F-1 fans.
