ummm.... ahem... 97 6sp NSX...I/E/H/Cat bypass/Clutch= 12.56 @111
since the old thread got deleted....
- Thread starter 4g62bt2c30a
- Start date
ummm.... ahem... 97 6sp NSX...I/E/H/Cat bypass/Clutch= 12.56 @111
I want to be very clear here that I am not trying to start an arguemen. It just seems like every time dragging an NSX vs a Corvette/Viper/RX-7/Supra/etc. comes up in a thread the same guys always say "well, the NSX isn't a drag car." Okay then, what is? Be specific. What makes a any of those cars more of a 'drag car' than an NSX? Just to keep things simple, let's leave out anything with a live rear axle and focus on the cars I listed.
Enlighten me.
Enlighten me.
Originally posted by 4g62bt2c30a:
ummm.... ahem... 97 6sp NSX...I/E/H/Cat bypass/Clutch= 12.56 @111
spookyp was referring to a "slushbox" (automatic transmission) NSX.
I assume IRS = Independent Rear Suspension. (This time of year, we often spend lots of time thinking of another IRS.) Why is an IRS bad for drag racing?
Makes it much harder to launch striaght with a lot of hp. Most purpose built drag cars have a four link and a spool.
I for one can't think of a better profile for a drag car..Lightweight body...strong motor...perfect weight transfer...long gears....reliable.....etc... on and on and on.....
I’m certainly not looking to pick a fight either, least of all with David, but I think we can kick this around amiably a bit more.
I recall that thread. Sounds like a complete novice on his first effort. I could walk into the office Monday and pick 10 guys who drive interesting cars but have not done a track event, take them out to the track, and probably better each their times by 10 seconds or more on a two minute lap. But I’ll bet the kid at the drag strip will close the gap much faster than my buddies at the track. Part of it is the intimidation and fear, but even that is a reflection of the greater complexity.
That’s more what I would expect, but as with any sport there are plenty of underachievers. More than once a friend of mine got in someone else’s autocross car for the first time and shave several seconds of their best run (on a parking lot autocross!), and those were people who did it a lot. There are always a few overachievers.
Lop off the two extremes and I think you find pretty much what that recent road test even amongst people with some experience. I can’t find the numbers any more, but even I was surprised at how much faster Millen was until I realized how few laps each got. He was never a slouch, but nor was he exceptionally fast as pros go and now he’s getting up there in years.
I don’t think that’s quite the point people are making. True, none of the cars you want to compare with were designed as a drag car. The point is that, clearly, the NSX was specifically designed as a road racing style sports car. Likewise the RX7, about which I would make similar comments. The Vette has a long history in various forms of racing and is a very competent sports car but it is still seen by many as the brute force approach. The Supra is a Japanese F-body and the undisputed king of the modern street drag scene. But when people say that the NSX was never intended for drag racing they are correct, even if that is not relevant to you. They typically then say that if someone wants to drag race they would go much faster for much less with something else. Also true. Then there is the fact that some people get defensive of the NSX because often someone complains that it is so expensive but still can’t beat car x at the strip. The logical response? It wasn’t designed as a drag car, go buy a Mustang or Supra if you top priority is ¼ mile ET. Fair enough I think, especially after the umpteenth troll.
I recall that thread. Sounds like a complete novice on his first effort. I could walk into the office Monday and pick 10 guys who drive interesting cars but have not done a track event, take them out to the track, and probably better each their times by 10 seconds or more on a two minute lap. But I’ll bet the kid at the drag strip will close the gap much faster than my buddies at the track. Part of it is the intimidation and fear, but even that is a reflection of the greater complexity.
That’s more what I would expect, but as with any sport there are plenty of underachievers. More than once a friend of mine got in someone else’s autocross car for the first time and shave several seconds of their best run (on a parking lot autocross!), and those were people who did it a lot. There are always a few overachievers.
Lop off the two extremes and I think you find pretty much what that recent road test even amongst people with some experience. I can’t find the numbers any more, but even I was surprised at how much faster Millen was until I realized how few laps each got. He was never a slouch, but nor was he exceptionally fast as pros go and now he’s getting up there in years.
I don’t think that’s quite the point people are making. True, none of the cars you want to compare with were designed as a drag car. The point is that, clearly, the NSX was specifically designed as a road racing style sports car. Likewise the RX7, about which I would make similar comments. The Vette has a long history in various forms of racing and is a very competent sports car but it is still seen by many as the brute force approach. The Supra is a Japanese F-body and the undisputed king of the modern street drag scene. But when people say that the NSX was never intended for drag racing they are correct, even if that is not relevant to you. They typically then say that if someone wants to drag race they would go much faster for much less with something else. Also true. Then there is the fact that some people get defensive of the NSX because often someone complains that it is so expensive but still can’t beat car x at the strip. The logical response? It wasn’t designed as a drag car, go buy a Mustang or Supra if you top priority is ¼ mile ET. Fair enough I think, especially after the umpteenth troll.
Originally posted by 4g62bt2c30a:
ummm.... ahem... 97 6sp NSX...I/E/H/Cat bypass/Clutch= 12.56 @111
Ken cleared it up for me, but I'll confirm... I was specifically referencing the auto.
I think when people refer to a car as a drag car or not a drag car, they are only referring to the cars dragstrip potential. ie - how cheaply and easily it can be modded to turn in ludicrous 1/4 mile times.
David, hanging out with SW, you know that enough $$$$ can bring anything into the 9's
Doesn't the NSX have an IRS?
I guess when I think of a drag car, I think of Camaros, Novas, Chevelles, Mustangs, etc. I think of all those Pro Street cars with the "tubbed" chassis and full roll cages too...I think of Muscle cars and ponycars from earlier times. They were light, had V8s, solid rear axles, etc.
You'll see a lot of them here...
http://www.cars-on-line.com/racecarmenu.html
Of course, lately when I think drag racing I also think of supercharged b16 Civics and a new generation of sport compact hardware and drivers. But I still don't think of NSXs.
Just look at the changes made by Adam Saruwatari with his NSX dragster. It's certainly not a "NSX" any longer.
With a drag car you certainly don't have to worry about cornering prowess and lateral acceleration.
However...
I'm not putting anyone down who drag races their NSX, I agree it might be fun and useful to determine the relative merits of certain engine performance mods, it's just that when I think of drag racing I don't think of the NSX, Ferrari, Porsche, etc. Perhaps it's because there just isn't that many NSXs out there.
But I think it's primarily due to the fact that the NSX wasn't designed with the drag strip in mind. It was designed with the road course in mind. When the Tochigi engineers endeavored to obtain better times at the track they were thinking Motegi...not Englishtown or Pomona.
When Honda set their sights on the competition, it was Ferrari, not an old Dodge with a blown Hemi.
Now again, I'm not criticizing anyone who takes their NSX to the drags, but I think it's certainly reasonable to say that the NSX was not designed with drag racing in mind.
-Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
I guess when I think of a drag car, I think of Camaros, Novas, Chevelles, Mustangs, etc. I think of all those Pro Street cars with the "tubbed" chassis and full roll cages too...I think of Muscle cars and ponycars from earlier times. They were light, had V8s, solid rear axles, etc.
You'll see a lot of them here...
http://www.cars-on-line.com/racecarmenu.html
Of course, lately when I think drag racing I also think of supercharged b16 Civics and a new generation of sport compact hardware and drivers. But I still don't think of NSXs.
Just look at the changes made by Adam Saruwatari with his NSX dragster. It's certainly not a "NSX" any longer.
With a drag car you certainly don't have to worry about cornering prowess and lateral acceleration.
However...
I'm not putting anyone down who drag races their NSX, I agree it might be fun and useful to determine the relative merits of certain engine performance mods, it's just that when I think of drag racing I don't think of the NSX, Ferrari, Porsche, etc. Perhaps it's because there just isn't that many NSXs out there.
But I think it's primarily due to the fact that the NSX wasn't designed with the drag strip in mind. It was designed with the road course in mind. When the Tochigi engineers endeavored to obtain better times at the track they were thinking Motegi...not Englishtown or Pomona.
When Honda set their sights on the competition, it was Ferrari, not an old Dodge with a blown Hemi.
Now again, I'm not criticizing anyone who takes their NSX to the drags, but I think it's certainly reasonable to say that the NSX was not designed with drag racing in mind.
-Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
Yes, that was his point. It makes drag racing more difficult. Most of the new wave street racers have IRS whereas nearly all of the old school hot rods (and full race drag cars) do not.
I think you meant "tubed". I only mention it because a "tub" car is exactly the opposite of a "tube frame" car, and "tubed" car is an attempt to convert the latter to the former. So, a "tubbed" car would be a tube frame converted to a tub.
Also, I wouldn't call the old muscle cars light, especially the Chevelle and Nova. Considering they weren't strapped with all the mandatory smog and safety equipment we have today, they were rather heavy.
Other than that, you expressed some of my thoughts better and more succinctly than I did. Nice post.
sjs,
My comment regarding IRS was directed at 4g62bt2c30a's comment that he couldn't think of a better profile for a drag car than the NSX. Since the consensus was that IRS wasn't the ideal for drag racing I just wanted to point that out.
No I meant "tubbed". It's a slang term. That's how it's pronounced by most people who build Pro-Street cars. I put it quotes around it for that reason.
Actually, I think the old Novas and Chevelles were reasonably lightweight.
http://drag.race-cars.com/carsales/chevy/nova62/nova62ss.htm
A 65 Chevelle hardtop from the factory was about 3100 pounds and race ready they were around 2,500.
They did get considerbly heavier in the 70s and 80s, however.
-Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
My comment regarding IRS was directed at 4g62bt2c30a's comment that he couldn't think of a better profile for a drag car than the NSX. Since the consensus was that IRS wasn't the ideal for drag racing I just wanted to point that out.
No I meant "tubbed". It's a slang term. That's how it's pronounced by most people who build Pro-Street cars. I put it quotes around it for that reason.
Actually, I think the old Novas and Chevelles were reasonably lightweight.
http://drag.race-cars.com/carsales/chevy/nova62/nova62ss.htm
A 65 Chevelle hardtop from the factory was about 3100 pounds and race ready they were around 2,500.
They did get considerbly heavier in the 70s and 80s, however.
-Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
Looking for 76-79 Honda Accords
The numbers were in the March 2002 Road & Track comparison of the 911, Z06, and NSX. Millen was several seconds faster than Sam Mitani (club racer) who was several seconds faster than Mike something (newbie). Each got three laps on a wet track at Laguna Seca.
Still waiting for enlightenment. Specifically, how is a Supra, Corvette, or RX-7 more of a 'drag car' than an NSX? What actual design features (stock vs stock) differentiate them in a way that makes them 'drag cars' while the NSX is not? And not subjective comments like 'the Supra is a Japanese F-body' - real, tangible design differences. What are they?
I guess I'll take a stab, David.
First off, I don't think the Supra, Corvette or the RX-7 were designed for the dragstrip any more than the NSX was.
I do think you'll see more of these cars at the dragstrip however because of their availability.
As far as design features, well these cars are all front engined. I think in general it's easier to yank out a engine from one of these cars than it would be the NSX.
For all these cars, the availability of relatively inexpensive go-fast parts (combined with a ready supply of these cars) means that there's a LOT more people racing these cars on the dragstrip.
In the case of the Corvette, there's the design and availability of the small and big block engines and parts that really make it possible. But, in all reality, Vettes were never all that popular on the strip.
-Jim
First off, I don't think the Supra, Corvette or the RX-7 were designed for the dragstrip any more than the NSX was.
I do think you'll see more of these cars at the dragstrip however because of their availability.
As far as design features, well these cars are all front engined. I think in general it's easier to yank out a engine from one of these cars than it would be the NSX.
For all these cars, the availability of relatively inexpensive go-fast parts (combined with a ready supply of these cars) means that there's a LOT more people racing these cars on the dragstrip.
In the case of the Corvette, there's the design and availability of the small and big block engines and parts that really make it possible. But, in all reality, Vettes were never all that popular on the strip.
-Jim
Not to sound rude to anyone, but can we please stick with the original topic.
How about someone starts a new topic on wether the NSX is a drag car or not. If you have enough money any car can be made into a drag car. I even have a video of a Lamborghini do the 1/4 mile. It didn't do so great. Create a new topic and even I will contribute.
Now back to the SCers
How about someone starts a new topic on wether the NSX is a drag car or not. If you have enough money any car can be made into a drag car. I even have a video of a Lamborghini do the 1/4 mile. It didn't do so great. Create a new topic and even I will contribute.
Now back to the SCers
Thank you.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
David,
Since I believe you have one of the higher HP NSX's around, maybe you could explain what the diferrences in the different SCers are. Which do you think would do better in the 1/4 mile, BB? I am not picking the BB just because of the acclaimed hp numbers. But because where it delivers this HP.
Since I believe you have one of the higher HP NSX's around, maybe you could explain what the diferrences in the different SCers are. Which do you think would do better in the 1/4 mile, BB? I am not picking the BB just because of the acclaimed hp numbers. But because where it delivers this HP.
Here's a cut...
There is a theoretical torque ratio (rwt per unit car weight) that makes a drag car "fast". I believe that other marques (Supra, RX7, Vette) possess:
- better ratios than the NSX in "stock" form (although none are materially superior)
- bottom end torque (more the "slope" not the peak values)
- an ability to IMPROVE the ratio for relatively less $$ (absolute and relative) -- for example, for the boosted cars, just crank the boost; rat motor has MUCHO room for improvement... the NSX motor OTOH is already highly-optimized delivering modest power levels
- a beefy enough powertrain (stout block, internals, etc) to support increased power
If you truly plan to drag race an NSX competitively, I don't think a SC is the solution. I am guessing David would agree that a turbo has more power potential. And don't forget that although HP numbers are comparable, the available turbos produce more torque than SC units. The numbers that Speeddemon posted with his Bell kit are still the most impressive I've seen for a stock motor turbo. It would be quite an accomplishment for any SC NSX, current or upcoming, to better that time on a stock motor. None of them will produce the kind of torque the turbo can.
That being said, I would venture to guess that NOS has the highest potential for drag racing. Not even the turbo produces the kind of torque NOS does, and HP potential is only limited to the size of your shot. I would also guess that it is the cheapest solution.
To drag race competitevly you would need a built motor as David has done. Once that is done it is much simpler to implement direct port than a custom turbo or a SC.
This is simply for drag racing, nothing else.
If I was on a limited budget and wanted the fastest 1/4 mile possible, built motor plus direct port NOS is the fastest, cheapest, and most effective way if doing it.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most of the professional record holders still run NOS, or combo of NOS and turbo?
If you'll estimate withe me for a moment, take a stock NSX. Around 5-7K to reinforce the motor to handle 600+HP (David?.. sound right), another 2-3K to professionally implement a progressive 250+ shot of NOS.
You will also need a clutch to handle that power and some other odds and ends.
No other NSX will touch you in the 1/4, turbo or SC. This follows for any car.
[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 14 April 2002).]
That being said, I would venture to guess that NOS has the highest potential for drag racing. Not even the turbo produces the kind of torque NOS does, and HP potential is only limited to the size of your shot. I would also guess that it is the cheapest solution.
To drag race competitevly you would need a built motor as David has done. Once that is done it is much simpler to implement direct port than a custom turbo or a SC.
This is simply for drag racing, nothing else.
If I was on a limited budget and wanted the fastest 1/4 mile possible, built motor plus direct port NOS is the fastest, cheapest, and most effective way if doing it.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most of the professional record holders still run NOS, or combo of NOS and turbo?
If you'll estimate withe me for a moment, take a stock NSX. Around 5-7K to reinforce the motor to handle 600+HP (David?.. sound right), another 2-3K to professionally implement a progressive 250+ shot of NOS.
You will also need a clutch to handle that power and some other odds and ends.
No other NSX will touch you in the 1/4, turbo or SC. This follows for any car.
[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 14 April 2002).]
I would agree.
Turbo + NOS (liquid torque) is the way to go.
From the setup above, all things being equal, other makes/models seem to offer a more scalable-out-of-the-box platform (e.g., Soup-ra engine and tranny capable of sustaining power in excess of 750+ hp; similar beefiness for some Vettes).
Here's a cut...
There is a theoretical torque ratio (rwt per unit car weight) that makes a drag car "fast". I believe that other marques (Supra, RX7, Vette) possess:
- better ratios than the NSX in "stock" form (although none are materially superior)
- bottom end torque (more the "slope" not the peak values)
Well, RX-7s (any rotary) have less torque than reciprocating motors and make what little torque they have very high in the rpm range.
Also, by this line of reasoning, my dad's F350 Powerstroke would be an awesome drag vehicle. High torque, early torque peak, stout drive train, etc. ; )
an ability to IMPROVE the ratio for relatively less $$ (absolute and relative) -- for example..........a beefy enough powertrain (stout block, internals, etc) to support increased power[/QUOTE]
So, 911s are 'drag cars'? Really beefy internals, bullet proof tranny, catalog after catalog of performance parts.
Come on, what is it about the cars THEMSELVES that makes them 'drag cars' while the NSX isn't?
And by the way, Ilya is right. If I were building an NSX specifically to drag race (assuming its not all-motor), it would have a 15:1 compression motor built for N2O. Could probably put 600 hp and gobs of torque to the wheels. At 2700 lbs, It would run nines. And do little wheel stands. And be really fun.
[This message has been edited by David (edited 14 April 2002).]
There is a theoretical torque ratio (rwt per unit car weight) that makes a drag car "fast". I believe that other marques (Supra, RX7, Vette) possess:
- better ratios than the NSX in "stock" form (although none are materially superior)
- bottom end torque (more the "slope" not the peak values)
Well, RX-7s (any rotary) have less torque than reciprocating motors and make what little torque they have very high in the rpm range.
Also, by this line of reasoning, my dad's F350 Powerstroke would be an awesome drag vehicle. High torque, early torque peak, stout drive train, etc. ; )
an ability to IMPROVE the ratio for relatively less $$ (absolute and relative) -- for example..........a beefy enough powertrain (stout block, internals, etc) to support increased power[/QUOTE]
So, 911s are 'drag cars'? Really beefy internals, bullet proof tranny, catalog after catalog of performance parts.
Come on, what is it about the cars THEMSELVES that makes them 'drag cars' while the NSX isn't?
And by the way, Ilya is right. If I were building an NSX specifically to drag race (assuming its not all-motor), it would have a 15:1 compression motor built for N2O. Could probably put 600 hp and gobs of torque to the wheels. At 2700 lbs, It would run nines. And do little wheel stands. And be really fun.
[This message has been edited by David (edited 14 April 2002).]
David,
I think that most people think of "drag cars" as high horsepower to weight vehicles that can be easily and (here is the getter) cheaply ugraded and repaired. Yes, the 911 series cars can be easily upgraded, but not cheaply, and needless to say not repaired cheaply. Solid rear axles and tough drivetrains would also tend to be part of the equation. The last part is the car does not handle a curve too well. Otherwise, it would be considered a sports car, not a drag car.
Seriously, I think the average person, and even the motoring enthusiast would always consider a rather inexpensive, easily modified car that has plenty of spare parts around (i.e., not many exotics), but was never really designed for the road course as a "drag car".
As to the original point of this thread, see the new thread on HP from NStexPO.
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Gary Yates
1995 Red/Tan
I think that most people think of "drag cars" as high horsepower to weight vehicles that can be easily and (here is the getter) cheaply ugraded and repaired. Yes, the 911 series cars can be easily upgraded, but not cheaply, and needless to say not repaired cheaply. Solid rear axles and tough drivetrains would also tend to be part of the equation. The last part is the car does not handle a curve too well. Otherwise, it would be considered a sports car, not a drag car.
As to the original point of this thread, see the new thread on HP from NStexPO.
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Gary Yates
1995 Red/Tan
Originally posted by Jimbo:
Damn...I guess this means I'll have to send back my Dali NSX Wheelie Bars.
-Jim
But I made them just for you!!
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need more info? please private me @
[email protected]
Mark Johnson, CEO of Custodial Services @ Dali Racing, a Not For Profit Company.
Obviously, most of you have a lot to comment about when there is a BB supercharger involved. I am not "ripping" on anyone here, I have a lot of respect for all NSX owners, just stating what I see. Now, I am not big fan of drag racing my nsx, but I defenitely like 1/4 mile times. Don't ask me why, but I must ask the burning question: WHAT IS THE 1/4 MILE TIME OF A 91/92 NSX WITH NO OTHER MODS BUT A BB SC?? I would love to know this.
