Should the belt be changed?

[nakamichi]

Consider this.
Have you ever questioned how car makers come up with the service intervals?
Regarding the belt,did they run an engine untill the belt snapped?
If they did,how many engines did they use to arrive at an average life expectancy? 50? 100? 1000?
I don't know but if anyone does I would love to hear about it.
Assuming they did,I bet the belts lasted a hell of a lot longer than 60k miles,but they tell us to change them so that we are on the safe side and also to ensure the car dealers get a steady income for years after they have sold the car.
Another point to consider is this.
All timing belts are intrinsically the same regardless of which car they are fitted to,so how is it that the recommended service interval changes so drastically between different makers?
Aside from timing belts,and on a wider point of debate,virtually all the servicable items on a car will last considerably longer than the manufacturer recommends they are changed.
When people buy brand new cars,they quite rightly,have it serviced regularly to get stamps in the book so they can sell it on easier.
However,when cars get old with high mileages,most people don't bother having it serviced as it is no longer worth it.
When you think about it though,an old car should actually be serviced more than a new one.
I have owned many cars over the years that were cheap and therefore not worth spending money servicing them.None of them have ever broken down on me though.What generally kills a car off is deterioration to the bodywork and chassis.....rarely engine problems.I had a 16 year old car with 175k miles on the clock and I never even bothered to change the oil because it was so cheap I didn't care if it broke down on me.
Ran it for 30k miles like that with no problems untill the sills rusted away.
Anecdotal evidence ,but I know what I know based on nearly 30 years driving experience.
I am not saying you should ignore the service intervals,just questioning the real neccessity.Car dealers make more money from servicing cars than they ever do from selling them.
Think about that.
Go ahead and flame me:smile:

 

[LJSB]

they tell us to change them so that we are on the safe side and also to ensure the car dealers get a steady income for years after they have sold the car.

I just can't....

Another point to consider is this.
All timing belts are intrinsically the same regardless of which car they are fitted to,so how is it that the recommended service interval changes so drastically between different makers?

This is now getting silly. I just don't know where to begin with such a empirical statement. This is beginning to look like trolling.
Hint: Tires are intrinsically all the same too.


Driving over thirty years does not bestow one with know how or understanding of a vehicle's mechanics or theory, if it did every little old lady with 60 years driving under her belt would be ASE certified.:biggrin:

Don't change your timing belt at the suggested interval if you don't want. Talk yourself into feeling safe and secure, better yet, reach down in there and do it yourself. Keep the money from those self serving manufacturers ans their cronies "the dealers".

 

[nakamichi]

I just can't....




This is now getting silly. I just don't know where to begin with such a empirical statement. This is beginning to look like trolling.
Hint: Tires are intrinsically all the same too.


Driving over thirty years does not bestow one with know how or understanding of a vehicle's mechanics or theory, if it did every little old lady with 60 years driving under her belt would be ASE certified.:biggrin:

Don't change your timing belt at the suggested interval if you don't want. Talk yourself into feeling safe and secure, better yet, reach down in there and do it yourself. Keep the money from those self serving manufacturers ans their cronies "the dealers".

Trolling???
Putting a different point of view is "trolling"?
Wow !!
Incidentally,I have,and will continue to have my belt changed at the specified intervals to be on the safe side.
However,if I had the money,I would run the thing into the ground just to satisfy my own curiosity.
How do you explain my 185k miler car (not an NSX) which should have had a belt change every 60k miles,happily running with only the 1st change done?And thats not the only car I have done it on.
Double the "recommended" interval with no ill affect.
You seem to pick out the bits of someone post that you can flame but ignore all logic,commonsense and real life evidence.

Thats up to you,I really don't care,but an intelligent person would at least enter into a debate without descending into childishness.
Do you ,by any chance,run a car dealership?

 

[nakamichi]

I just can't....




Tires are intrinsically all the same too.


.

Don't get me started on that one.I could argue all night about tyres.

 

[nakamichi]

I just can't....





Driving over thirty years does not bestow one with know how or understanding of a vehicle's mechanics or theory, if it did every little old lady with 60 years driving under her belt would be ASE certified.:biggrin:

.

True,but if that little old lady told me she had been driving the same car for 60 years and her "empirical statement" was that she had never had the timing belt changed,and that the car was still running fine,I would take that "fact" over an ASE certified mechanics "opinion" all day long.

 

[docjohn]

lol ,it all depends where on the Bell curve you wanna live....Thats basicly what you guys are discussing..trying to convince each other that your position is best.

 

[LJSB]

You seem to pick out the bits of someone post that you can flame but ignore all logic,commonsense and real life evidence.

Thats up to you,I really don't care,but an intelligent person would at least enter into a debate without descending into childishness.
Do you ,by any chance,run a car dealership?

You're right, I have no real life evidence or commonsense or experience. I'm busted. If I had common sense, experience and perhaps more knowledge your logic and conclusions would be better understood and seem more sensible and sanguine. What was I thinking? I didn't think we were talking about philosophy I thought we were talking about machines, cars and how to keep them running. Duh! Maintenance and service intervals are opinions! The manuals are opinions by the manufacturers are generalized guides for the neophytes and uninitiated like myself to use and to sucker us into giving them our money. I will listen to you and Tim from now on!

 

[LJSB]

lol ,it all depends where on the Bell curve you wanna live....Thats basicly what you guys are discussing..trying to convince each other that your position is best.

Hey I have a radio and listen to it all the time. Been doing it for 30 years.
That makes me a radiologist! I get it! I get it!
Bell curve? Sure, I love Taco Bell. I know that too!

 

[ANYTIME]

Yep, I am one of those guys you read about. Original owner of a 1993 with 15,100 miles and no TB change. Yet. Have appointment with Larry B. this month and I am trailering my car to his shop. Heck, I don't even want to start it to put it in the trailer. I have always attempted to drive the car smoothly, not slowly, but I feel very fortunate that nothing bad has happened so far.
One interesting note that has come up in discussions on this topic is the age of the replacement belt from its 'born on date'. It is conceivable that a replacement belt may have been sitting on a shelf somewhere aging away. I wonder if age of the replacement belt could be determined and if not, what, if any, consideration should one put on this potential question mark.

At yet another one: George (heartbeat here on Prime) just changed his 1994 with 23k on it. He said the belt was soft as the new one (although it was impossible to have them side by side) and was not happy, being a cheapster that he is :biggrin:

 

[tbromley]

Bromley, if you're not going to back up your recommendation by paying for the broken belt (and $10k worth of damage should the unthinkable happen), then don't recommend an extension beyond the manufacturer's service interval. Plain and simple.

You called my search, "sleuthing." lol. All I did was one search. You should try it before you type up a bunch of nonsense. That's the first lesson everyone learns here: the car is 20 years old, so if you have a question, search for it because it's likely been answered already.

People make comments all the time on this site that are hardly recommendations but merely a statement of opinion. Take it for what it's worth. My comment about sleuthing was a sarcastic remark that I would have thought you would understand all too well. I have no reason to search as I have personally read at least 3 prior threads on or about this issue not counting this one. The last if you had really been keeping track was a testimony of real owners about how far they had personally exceeded the limits themselves. Obviously they are all still living and so are their cars. I am not suggesting that everyone just go blithley along and throw care to the wind without any regard to specifics particuilar to their car or manufacturers recommendations. Hardly!

My comments are merely an examination of the issue with a slight push on the recommedations that some choose to sancitfy without any regard to actual circumstances. Fine. I have adhered to the manufacturers recommendations myself but my car too was past the recommended limits when i bought my car - did I freak out and have my car towed to Atlanta - ummmm no - I chose to drive it home. I had the work done after I drove it to Nashville as many may remember - with no worry at all as to whether the belt might break. And Barney wasn't worried about it either. That's all I have said and all i mean to say here.

I believe you are all making way too much of my opinions anyway as if to say that who knows how many will read this and suffer bent valves and blown engines as a result of taking my "advice" as strongly as some take the owners manual - I mean come on guys don't you think that's just a bit of an exageration and really pretty absurd. I mean some of you need to lighten up a bit here. You are taking this discussion way out there. It's a discussion an examination of things and a logical questioning of the recommendations based on real observations and that's about it.

I don't think anyone will be harmed by reading this and may actually find it mildly entertaining which is why we post - it's a pass time and fun to communicate and express our opinions and debate in a manner that exemplifies commradery. I have no ill intentions and I surely do hope that folks have enough sense to make up their own minds without reading a discussion into this subject and thinking there is no need to worry with those silly manufacturers recommendations. I think we can all relax now - don't you?

 

[pvmike]

You're wrong Bromley. This isn't a discussion thread. This thread is one new owner asking if he should change his timing belt, and you said you didn't think it was necessary - it would probably be fine for "a couple years" even though Honda advises otherwise. That's the very first response he got, and that's doing him a disservice. You're offering your opinion about the durability of timing belts with no personal experience or knowledge, while he may be thinking it is sage advice from a member with a lot of posts. Little does he know that there is little substance in them.

If you've read timing belt threads, then you'd know the importance of changing the water pump too. It's timing belt driven, and can be the cause of a catastrophic failure. There's more to it than just twisting the timing belt to see if it cracks.

But I'm over this thread. You can have at it.

Amused_NSX, it sounds like a beautiful car. Hope you enjoy it.

 

[ChopsJazz]

How do you explain my 185k miler car (not an NSX) which should have had a belt change every 60k miles,happily running with only the 1st change done?And thats not the only car I have done it on.
Double the "recommended" interval with no ill affect.

This is another example of useless anecdotal evidence used to support a theory.

Fact: My mom smoked for forty years and is still alive at 88 years of age. Conclusion: Smoking is good for you.

 

[EK]

It's amazing to me that some folks are so willing to spend money in replacing functioning non-critical factory parts like the door sill with carbon fiber, and yet try to save money by skipping recommended services.

 

[LJSB]

As a timing belt ages and wears it has no "ill effect". It's either or.

It's does not show signs of wear, transmit or signal to the operator that it's time has come.

There are no "ill effect"(s) to take note of.
It breaks and you have what is commonly regarded as catastrophic failure.

Logic? Commonsense? Real life knowledge? Opinions? Discussion?

These words have no value when your belt breaks without warning or symptom. You can talk until you are blue in the face and discuss all you want. Car broken. Car no run. Goodbye thousands of dollars and happy hunting for a good NSX motor.

You can replace some car engines for less than the cost of a NSX timing belt and water pump from a preferred vendor. On a NSX you're talking real big money.

OP, listen to the sirens song and save your money and risk the crash onto the rocks if you like.
If you can't afford or hate spending the money on preventative maintenance of this order wait until you get the singular "ill effect" of a broken timing belt and are suddenly the proud owner of NSX that needs a motor.

My advice to the OP is regard the risk and costs of a failure that comes without warning or symptoms and decide if the down time and considerable cost is worth it. See what engines and rebuilds are going for and decide for yourself.

A timing belt failure is a heart attack for a car.

Some guys can afford a new NSX motor, shake it off and move on. Some can afford two or three. Find a seat on the "bell curve" (I like that Doc) and place your bets.

 

[docjohn]

Joe so far you have come up with two recent funnies among many over the years,,,,,,the best is if you are a street racer you are a racist:biggrin: And now if you listen to the radio you are a radiologist....lol

 

[tbromley]

PV, PB, Ken, anyone read the OP's final response? Anyone read my response to that or are you guys just in it here to bash me....you are not paying attention. After the OP made his own decision based on the info gathered here to have his mechanic perform the work because he was going to track his car it was over. I wrote him and said good move! Read this stuff before you start blasting someone with inane manuer. I've been acused of not reading before and get a grip - catch up, etc. I'm saying this to you guys now - read before you blab.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of you two or Ken or Doc that my position is right. I can't do that. But I still say given the scenario of the 03 with 19k miles that I mentioned in my original post NO ill affects would have befallen the guy! I'm convinced of that and that's the way I would deal with my own belt situation having been here for the year and a half that I've been on Prime given what I've absorbed. I've had discussions with others - pms - where their dealer Acura mechanics have said the same. I'm not talking out of a position of complete idiocy - parotting as some suggest. I've been around the barn many times - worked on cars myself - been around mechanics for many years- have good buddies in the past that were good mechanics and I read and pay attention and this is what I gleaned out of it.

You don't like my advice - fine - you all have made your point! I've made mine. Take it or leave it.

Sometimes after the OP has been satisfied a thread takes on a new life of discussion like this one has. I enjoy that. Has anyone noticed that the OP hasn't been here for a long time since he made his decision to change his belt???? Anyone paying attention. Obviously the safe bet is to do as the manual says. I've said that many times - but there is another side to this strict adhearance and that is all I've mentioned. I believe it to be true and I'm not the only one - but probably the most vocal. Others that I've talked with would never come out in a thread like this and post thier thinking - I guess I'm the only guy that would. Nuff said -

Till the next one...

 

[greenberet]

My God, guys...

I heard from a reputable source that, "In Japan, the TB service interval is based only on the mileage (every 62,500 miles, 100,000km) and not by the age.

Therefore, some owners will carry it out after 5 years and others may carry it out after more than 10 – 15 years until they have reached the specified service mileage.

Having said this, most of the owners seemed to carry it out before exceeding the 10 years time."

However, since I haven't personally read a Japanese NSX Service Manual, I can't state that as a fact myself. It would be like people recounting second hand stories of NSX timing belts failing. If someone has access to a Japanese Service Manual and can read it, it would be great to post up what it says.

So far, it seems like the only timing belt anyone here on Prime has had first hand experience failing in a street driven NSX is when it was 15 years old after the engine wasn't turned over for several years.

Personally, I've had an old a/c compressor belt fail in a car I use only in the summer after it was laid up over the winter. For five or six months, the engine wasn't turned over, the belts were in one position, and when I took it to the Autobahn again, the a/c belt didn't like shifting out of its comfortable position and broke.

Why US and Japanese NSX Service Manuals seem to be different - I don't know. It may have something to do with US product liability laws and lawyers. My personal opinion: if you get the cam belt changed according to the US Service Manual, you'll be safe. If you don't track your NSX, you'll probably be fine sticking to the Japanese Service Manual as well. However, to be totally safe, stick to the US Service Manual. And make sure your engine is turned over every month or so.

 

[nsxtasy]

Have you ever questioned how car makers come up with the service intervals?
Regarding the belt,did they run an engine untill the belt snapped?
If they did,how many engines did they use to arrive at an average life expectancy? 50? 100? 1000?
I don't know but if anyone does I would love to hear about it.
Assuming they did,I bet the belts lasted a hell of a lot longer than 60k miles

I bet the belts lasted a hell of a lot longer than 60K miles too. Especially since the recommendation from Honda is that they be changed after 90K miles (or 6 years) for the '91-96, 105K miles (or 7 years) for the '97-05. :biggrin:

I don't have a problem with Bromley's revised comments (different from his initial recommendation), basically saying that the belt is almost certainly not going to break the day after that service interval (7 years, in this case) is reached. The question he keeps asking - how long past the interval can you go before the timing belt breaks - has no clear answer. What is the percentage of belts that will fail after one month past the interval? After one year? Two years? Five years? We don't know, and there's no way any of us can conduct the rigorous analysis to answer those questions. Even Honda doesn't run a thousand NSX engines at various time intervals to find when they break; they almost certainly do so using engineering calculations and computer simulations to estimate the likelihood of the timing belt breaking at any given time, and use that analysis to come up with their recommendations. They recommend 6-7 years as the time interval if you don't exceed the mileage interval. That's the official recommendation, and any other number is mere guesswork on someone's part.

The fact remains, if the timing belt breaks, you will have to spend many thousands of dollars on the repair (you're probably looking at around $12K including labor for a replacement with a used 3.2-liter engine). Whereas if you replace the timing belt for say $1400 after eight years instead of seven years, you save $25 a year over the life of the timing belt ($1400/8 vs $1400/7). So the comparison needs to weigh the cost - whatever chance you think there is of it failing during the extra year times the $12K cost if it does - against the benefit - $25 a year you will save by waiting an additional year. It's your car and your money, and your decision - do whatever you think is best.

 

[ChopsJazz]

So, if I choose not to replace the belt for one year after the recommended service and save $25 per waiting period/year, or take the reciprocal of the inverse of the car's weight divided by the number of days tracked and multiply that by 33% of the days spent in the garage with the garage door open times pi(diameter) I can determine my savings per calendar day as... :wink:

 

[tbromley]

Saving 25 bucks a year isn't the point. Many that buy these cars perhaps shouldn't. Maybe they haven't understood that budgeting for things like the TB/WP/hose replacement is something they need to do or perhaps that got crazy and bought one that was a wee bit over their budget which consumed some of that repair cash they had socked away. What I'm saying and it hasn't changed and surely it is a case by case basis - in that my advice to a guy with an 03 with 19k miles on it is going to be different than a guy that has a 93 with 152k miles on it and had a belt replace in '03 etc. There is no blanket solution that fits every case - obviously. I still say that the guy with the 03 with 19k taking it to Canada where the season is short and if he hadn't planned on tracking the car but driving it normally in thier short summers there that one or even two years out under those conditions will most surely not produce a broken timing belt if the car is kept in a garage - which would be most likely be climate controlled as in heated. I don't think anyone here would disagree with me but that's not what the manual would tell you.

So it's not a case of saving 25 bucks it's a case of not spending money you may not have at all. It's a case that perhaps a guy needs to save a bit - not the best case scenario for the buyer. My advice along those lines has always been to tell a person to have 5k in reserve when buying an older model that needs things like the major service, etc. I don't give outlandish or poor advice. Some folks just take exception to anything that strays from the manual that is written to protect the parent company and guard against the uncountable variables of ownership - like keeping it outside in Arizona in the summer in the baking wind, dust, sun and weather - not good for a belt - ya think? That is why the advice in my opinion is very conservative - cause Honda doesn't take that replacement on a case by case basis like perhaps we can.

That's all I've been saying all along - read my posts. I haven't changed anything. I've qualified from the start. But when taking certain excerpts it may not sound that way.

You know guys we're all part of a big family here - there are bound to be small disagreements like this - doesn't mean anyone is suggesting the "unthinkable" - just another point of view that is qualified and not some absolute. Don't try and make it any more than it is. If you still don't like my perspective it's ok. I assure you no one is going down the "garden path" or to "hell in a handbasket" because of my statements. People are smart, that's been my experience with this group. No one listens to anybody blindly.

 

[LJSB]

Tim, you're an educated man but you just need to trim it down a bit. You go all over the map. You're enthusiasm is appreciated but you have to pull in your wings a bit. 1 year has not taught you EVERYTHING. You have much to learn and that's not being condescending, that's just what it is.

 

[nakamichi]

I bet the belts lasted a hell of a lot longer than 60K miles too. Especially since the recommendation from Honda is that they be changed after 90K miles (or 6 years) for the '91-96, 105K miles (or 7 years) for the '97-05. :biggrin:.

According to my UK handbook,the belt should be changed after 60,000 miles or 5 years.
How come the US belts last 30,000 miles and 1 year longer?
Answer that smart arse.:biggrin:

 

[Big_D]

When taking into consideration where the car was stored and how often it was driven then perhaps you may get away with waiting longer. However, its still a gamble with a very expensive engine.

Bottom line is...do you feel LUCKY? :smile:

 

[tbromley]

Tim, you're an educated man but you just need to trim it down a bit. You go all over the map. You're enthusiasm is appreciated but you have to pull in your wings a bit. 1 year has not taught you EVERYTHING. You have much to learn and that's not being condescending, that's just what it is.

I can actually agree with this. I surely don't propose to know everything about NSXs or even who's who on this site as in history and such. This email is surely a departure from what I've been getting - which feels like the riot act. I appreciate the tone here and will trim accordingly. Thanks Pbassjo. You know I have good intentions and want to be part of things and not on the outs with anyone.

 

[LJSB]

Tim, I apologize for being such a wise guy.:redface: