Should the belt be changed?

[NSXclear]

You see we are constantly giving advice here on Prime about the TB/WP service - it would just be nice to do more than just quote the service manual recommendation. I can't speak for anyone else but I for one would like to see some real belt breaking tech data or just a few examples of when and why belts have broken in the past. We talk about risk and how much expensive repairs are when belts break but what are the real risks?

Some folks are so paranoid as to say don't even drive you car home with a belt service needed even if it's an 04 with 19k miles on it - I've seen that kind of "advice". Wouldn't anyone like to hear from a mechanic that repairs NSXs? I'm going to personally write Larry B.

+1

I would like to hear about first hand witness testimony also. And I would like to now how many miles and years it had on the belt.

I would like to know if their is any evidence to support the time interval recommendation, especially with such low miles on the belt.

 

[LJSB]

I'm going to personally write Larry B.

Deeeeear Ware Wee.....

 

[tbromley]

I've been wondering what you look like Pbassjoe.....now i know and it is so nice of you to write Larry in your own words - do you need someone to finish your sentence for you??? We'd all be glad to lend you a hand.

Sounds like you might need a little help; but I know you'd rather carry on by yourself, but thanks for the offer. You can go back to sleep now....:wink::biggrin:

Deeeeear Ware Wee.....

 

[ChopsJazz]

Well Tim, you seem to be obsessed with simply wanting to hear/read about anecdotal evidence of broken belts. I have heard about many people who think it's not important to change their oil so they let it go for thousands and thousands of miles. Does that mean you should do that to your NSX?

Here's my idea: In the interest of science, you don't change your timing belt. Ever. Then, when it breaks you tell us how many miles/years it lasted and what happened when it did break! Then we can 1) choose to do the same, 2) choose to do it differently. :wink:

 

[tbromley]

Well Tim, you seem to be obsessed with simply wanting to hear/read about anecdotal evidence of broken belts. I have heard about many people who think it's not important to change their oil so they let it go for thousands and thousands of miles. Does that mean you should do that to your NSX?

Here's my idea: In the interest of science, you don't change your timing belt. Ever. Then, when it breaks you tell us how many miles/years it lasted and what happened when it did break! Then we can 1) choose to do the same, 2) choose to do it differently. :wink:

MMmm, anecdotal as in sketchy, untrustworthy, unreliable, subjective - nooooo, don't want any of that. What I'm looking for is something real - unlike all this opinionated, subjective and someone reading me the manual recommendation stuff.

Now, this thread started off with a real life example - an 04, 6 years old, 3.2 with 19k miles and all you guys are saying, get that belt replaced! It's not even time for the interval, which by the way is 7 years or 105k miles. So all this knee jerk reactionism on the part of "seasoned" individual owners is just that anecdotal - not based on even a recommended interval. So what are you talking about. I said if you go back to my original post that this guy could wait a year or two before this is really needed. That would take an 04 with 19k miles - 2 years out in Canada as a part time toy -so he might have ohhhhh, what, maybe 3 or 4 more thousand miles on the car that is one year over the recommended interval to change out the TB.

Are you guys listening to yourselves. Now it is obvious that you and I aren't going to pay for this guys "broken" TB is that would happen and we don't want anyone to run too much of a risk in that regard - I'm just trying to find some REAL data to base my opinion on besides a manufacturers recommendation that must cover all variables of weather, driving styles and conditions due to geographical location as in dust and harsh weather to arrive at a totally safe recommended interval. So obviously what happens to rubber in the Southeast will be different than what happens in Arizona desert dust and heat under hard use - right.

So what is the real data? I'm getting some input from sources and it's surely not pointing to this paranoid idea that some are expressing here as good logic or a real urgency that someone with low miles POSSIBLY one year over the recommended date is running any kind of major risk that is driving their cars in a sporting manner - not on the track. But this owner did mention the track so obviously he might want to get that done next year when his time interval says it's due.

That's all this is - I don't want to be making any outrageous statements or handing out bad advice but there is such a thing as a calculated risk which I bet everyone on this site does every day with other things. So don't get so preachy about it. And no one is suggesting anyone be the assine guinnea pig and let their belt go until it breaks for Ken's/Tim's hypothetical science project. That's not my idea of a good idea so that's all I'm trying to get at. It is obvious that with the real life data we have had in the past that under normal driving conditions and not many miles of use on a regular basis has allowed many I have read about to exceed the recommended time limit and that may be anecdotal but it is actual.

Take it for what it's worth but let's all try not to be paranoid that's all I'm saying.

 

[ChopsJazz]

MMmm, anecdotal as in sketchy, untrustworthy, unreliable, subjective - nooooo, don't want any of that. What I'm looking for is something real - unlike all this opinionated, subjective and someone reading me the manual recommendation stuff.

No, anecdotal as in, "Evidence, which may itself be true and verifiable, used to deduce a conclusion" (from wiki). What you're asking for here is anecdotal evidence:

We've heard the threads that list peoples date on their belts and many have waaaay exceded the recommended interval. We all know what the recommended interval is and that it's a good idea, etc, etc. And some mention that Larry B has had information about belts breaking well - Will someone please share that?

You seem to want to hear about peoples' experience. Fine. Go get some experience.

... 6 years old, 3.2 with 19k miles and all you guys are saying, get that belt replaced!

I don't remember anyone saying this. Instead I remember this:

The recommendation from Acura, the folks who designed and built the car, is that the timing belt should be changed every 105,000 miles or 7 years, whichever comes first.

This is good advice. It may seem counter-intuitive on such a "new" car, but it is good advice nonetheless.

I'm not going to do a search, but IIRC you did a LOT of research before you bought your car, and I'll bet proper service records, like a timing belt replacement, were pretty high on your priority list?

This forum has been around for years and has earned a good reputation by offering proper advice to NSX owners. Not from offering advice like, "... my 95 ford escort with 89k miles finally blew the belt in 2008" so based on that, "The race inspired NSX should have no problem getting to 9 or 10 years decently driven with low miles like most have."

It is not paranoid to take the advice from the manual. That's why they print one. Gather all the real-world experience you want, but I wouldn't want to be the one who gave advice that led to someone's misfortune.

RTFM. Read The Manual.

 

[shawn110975]

when i had mine done, I asked for the old belts back, they looked brand new, the color was kinda faded but other than that, the teeth were perfect, no chunks missing, I could have gone longer but I am glad i did cuz I can sleep good at night

 

[ChopsJazz]

It's been stated dozens of times here that, just like the radiator hoses, a visual inspection does not guarantee the quality of the hoses/belts. There are cords inside the rubber that degrades with use and/or time.

 

[tbromley]

Guys this has dwindled down to a silly argument by a bunch of prime members hashing and rehashing this TB issue to death. The original poster btw has an 03 not an 04 - so it's right on the time interval to have it changed.

I believe I've just let this escalate into a self perpetuating ass flaming session for myself even though if you read my original post is not bad advice. It is good advice. Ken's advice is good advice and is the died in the wool Acura manual adivice on interval.

I believe that everyone would like to see some real data, well a few of us would. Some may not because it may suggest that the interval, although recommended, is not an urgent demand but just a recommendation where there would be no possibility of failure. Great - I bet we all get it. What in the world would you expect from the manufacturer but the absolute safest advice where they would run into absolutely no possible issues. DUH! It's a great car and like everything else that is engineered well, as in HONDA, there is a safety factor. I don't recommend exploring that too far or even very far but I'm not an alarmist either.

This will do it for me on this post, adios, till the next one. Hey what would you do if you didn't have someone to flame - it would get mighty boring around here....:wink:

 

[Amused_NSX]

Hey Guys,

I really appreciate the feedback that this thread has generated. I have come to the conclusion that I am going to get the timing belt changed regardless.

I spoke to My mechanic and He advised that I should get it done to be on the safe side. He said due to the age of the car and it's limited use, that chances are it could be fine, but I am going to hit the circuit a few times before the season ends, and it is not worth the risk.

Thanks to all Who posted some input on the matter.

 

[tbromley]

Hey Guys,

I really appreciate the feedback that this thread has generated. I have come to the conclusion that I am going to get the timing belt changed regardless.

I spoke to My mechanic and He advised that I should get it done to be on the safe side. He said due to the age of the car and it's limited use, that chances are it could be fine, but I am going to hit the circuit a few times before the season ends, and it is not worth the risk.

Thanks to all Who posted some input on the matter.

If you're going to track it - get it changed - no one would be stupid enough not to recommend that. Even me - although I'm sure it's fine, there is no sense pushing that threshold.

 

[nsxtasy]

when i had mine done, I asked for the old belts back, they looked brand new, the color was kinda faded but other than that, the teeth were perfect, no chunks missing, I could have gone longer but I am glad i did cuz I can sleep good at night

It's been stated dozens of times here that, just like the radiator hoses, a visual inspection does not guarantee the quality of the hoses/belts. There are cords inside the rubber that degrades with use and/or time.

True. I have also heard of NSX timing belts that, over time, had stretched to the point that the cam timing could not be set. Even with perfect teeth and no chunks missing.

 

[tbromley]

True. I have also heard of NSX timing belts that, over time, had stretched to the point that the cam timing could not be set. Even with perfect teeth and no chunks missing.

Other than the guy that was tracking and his broke, which I read about, this story here is the only one I've heard about from folks I've talked with. I have spoken with one of the mechanics at Eiffel's shop and he had never seen an NSX issue but some on Civics and Integras and Lexus 300s - mostly belts stretching and skipping a tooth - one not bad - 2 skips and valves get bent. In his experience it's been a combination of out a few years and high miles. Never low miles and out a couple of years.

Point of the story is that if you are out like 15 years like my buddy Dennis, with 24k miles on the car - you are living on borrowed time - plain and simple and it decreases from there of course with less years. Bottom line is that if you are going to do a service on your car and it hasn't been done and it's time - go ahead. If your on the cut line and need an extra year and you have low miles and aren't going to the track regularly and have financial concerns you'll probably be ok.

Not a lot of sense in pushing this threshold too much though cause the consequences are mighty severe! Even though there have been stories of guys having pushed this threshold by a lot which were recently tallied in another similar thread - I wouldn't sleep to well at night if it were mine.

I know it sounds like a complete turn around for me - not so - my original advice was just like this. But since I've gotten a little more on real life examples thru sources that I respect and some I will not comment as to who - not that Civics and Integras are a bench mark for the NSX - but there are just too many variables which can contribute to problems so a slack attitude towards this important service is not a smart. Alittle tolerance is fine - how little - you be the judge. But belts do break and they surely do stretch.

Adios - sorry I lied about posting to this thread again but thought I'd finish on a real positive note.

 

[ChopsJazz]

It's called "preventative" maintenance.

It prevents otherwise bad stuff from happening.

 

[Rob4092xx]

TBROMLEY:

Personally, I agree with your thought process and think you are asking for some input/experience that really none of us knows about.

I appreciate your comments in this Thread and would ask that you not leave this Thread!

Rob

Guys this has dwindled down to a silly argument by a bunch of prime members hashing and rehashing this TB issue to death. The original poster btw has an 03 not an 04 - so it's right on the time interval to have it changed.

I believe I've just let this escalate into a self perpetuating ass flaming session for myself even though if you read my original post is not bad advice. It is good advice. Ken's advice is good advice and is the died in the wool Acura manual adivice on interval.

I believe that everyone would like to see some real data, well a few of us would. Some may not because it may suggest that the interval, although recommended, is not an urgent demand but just a recommendation where there would be no possibility of failure. Great - I bet we all get it. What in the world would you expect from the manufacturer but the absolute safest advice where they would run into absolutely no possible issues. DUH! It's a great car and like everything else that is engineered well, as in HONDA, there is a safety factor. I don't recommend exploring that too far or even very far but I'm not an alarmist either.

This will do it for me on this post, adios, till the next one. Hey what would you do if you didn't have someone to flame - it would get mighty boring around here....:wink:

 

[tbromley]

Hey Rob, guess I lied again...

Update on some real info. A guy, new owner, just bought a 91 black on black with 48k miles I believe and it had it's TB replaced 2000 miles ago - now unless that cars been in storage a long time or he puts like 50 miles a year on the car - that car went a looooooong time on the original belt. Stay tuned on that. I just about freaked when I read that. At first till I got some info from the buyer/new owner I thought the thing had never been replaced and I was saying wow - get that done soon!!!! Then he came back with the "dealer told him it had been done 2000 miles ago" - damn that was lucky. Just goes to show you ....just one more real life testimony to the durability of our NSXs.

Don't try this at home.....:biggrin: Thanks for the support Rob.

 

[nsxtasy]

Update on some real info. A guy, new owner, just bought a 91 black on black with 48k miles I believe and it had it's TB replaced 2000 miles ago - now unless that cars been in storage a long time or he puts like 50 miles a year on the car - that car went a looooooong time on the original belt.

It's also possible that this wasn't the first time the timing belt was changed on the car.

 

[ChopsJazz]

Drawing conclusions from anecdotal evidence is not scientific nor safe. It's like saying, "My mom smoked two packs a day and lived into her 90's, therefore smoking is not bad!"

I don't read Prime to get information like, "My Ford Escort lasted 14 years without a timing belt change."

TBROMLEY:
Personally, I agree with your thought process and think you are asking for some input/experience that really none of us knows about.

I don't question Tim's thought process, and his input is well intentioned and even somewhat on track. But the OP asked if his belt should be changed, perhaps because he doesn't have access to a manual, and he was told that his car is just about due according to the parameters Honda has determined. Responses like, "It ought to be good for a long time if you don't track it" are not based on any facts or engineering.

Tim bought a car and changed the timing belt, and I bet he'd change the belt on another car if it were outside the recommended period regardless of track time. I'd also bet that he wouldn't base his decision on what someone told him about his Ford or Chrysler.

 

[sahtt]

Plainly speaking, breakage under normal driving conditions within the mileage guideline is extremely rare regardless of time line. You could probably wait 14 years and it would probably be fine.

There's only one problem-risk vs reward.

If you do it now vs waiting a couple years, odds are you will actually perform the job at most one more time over a 15+ year period.

The maximum additional cost by performing it on time is rather well defined-2k$.

Now let's say the rare event occurs and your belt breaks, significantly damaging your engine due to its interference design (like all vtec motors). The maximum additional cost is stratospheric. New engines are actually 30k$ from Honda. Used ones can be difficult to find in premium condition and can easily cost 10k$+installation. Now add in the costs associated with depreciation due to unoriginal engine, stress of dealing with the situation, time used to resolve it, lack of peace of mind between now and when you get it done, and potentially increased depreciation if potential buyers are picky about services being performed on time.

If it was a 500 service and you could run to the junk yard and get a decent motor for 1k installed it would be a different story.

 

[tbromley]

YEP! Ken's right too. But if it was only on the year due - I might wait a year if everything else was up to snuff. I don't put a lot of hard miles or any miles on my car. I've driven it, due to my proximity to work, a whopping 3k miles or just over and it's been just about a year since I got it.

But Ken's advice and everyone that recommends sticking with the Manufacturers recommendations is good advice. There is surely a lot of examples out there that have way exceeded those recommendations - is that a risk worth taking - I'd say not but a year - maybe even 2 under my driving conditions - would I worry - no. That's all I'm saying but that's with low miles too - not high miles and driven hard - no way. There are definite parameters to my risk taking and I am usually pretty darned conservative.....like anyone should be with a car like the NSX or really any car that has a timing belt. One thing that BMW went to and back away from in after the es model run. They are using a chain - which is basically the life of the engine itself. Now why didn't Honda do that? I don't know. More expense and all their cars have belts...most likely the reason.

All you guys with belts way over the limit - get your belts changed pronto is my advice and that's where the "smart money" is! You can bet on it!

Drawing conclusions from anecdotal evidence is not scientific nor safe. It's like saying, "My mom smoked two packs a day and lived into her 90's, therefore smoking is not bad!"

I don't read Prime to get information like, "My Ford Escort lasted 14 years without a timing belt change."



I don't question Tim's thought process, and his input is well intentioned and even somewhat on track. But the OP asked if his belt should be changed, perhaps because he doesn't have access to a manual, and he was told that his car is just about due according to the parameters Honda has determined. Responses like, "It ought to be good for a long time if you don't track it" are not based on any facts or engineering.

Tim bought a car and changed the timing belt, and I bet he'd change the belt on another car if it were outside the recommended period regardless of track time. I'd also bet that he wouldn't base his decision on what someone told him about his Ford or Chrysler.

 

[NSX-Barque]

Don't be putting extra miles on Jade, Tim. She has 19k, not 24!

 

[tbromley]

Don't be putting extra miles on Jade, Tim. She has 19k, not 24!

Great miles there Dennis! I'd still be planning my new belt install. That's just me.

 

[Vytas]

It's also possible for the teeth on the timing belt to shear off and that's just as bad. Honda builds a safety margin in all their service items so I'd say it may be okay to go a little longer but not by much. I had gone nine years and and 30K miles on my first NSX before the belt was done. My current '92 had its first timing belt service done in 2008 with 14K miles on it just before I bought it. If I was the original owner, I wouldn't have waited that long. I find that many people base their service on mileage rather than time. If it's a daily driver, that may be fine but a garage queen, time is most important.

I had emailed a NSX timing belt question to Pat Goss (of Motorweek) radio show about 10 years ago and here's what he had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukXi83cAofU

 

[ftuhy]

YEP! One thing that BMW went to and back away from in after the es model run. They are using a chain - which is basically the life of the engine itself. Now why didn't Honda do that? I don't know. More expense and all their cars have belts...most likely the reason.

Ignoring cost and possiblythe ability to go around tighter bends, belts are used because they are much quieter than chains. Chains are also heavier, which might slightly affect throttle response time.

Considering how many NSX owners go to louder exhaust systems, a belt may not make sense.:biggrin: But, with other Honda engines as the design starting point, going to a chain might have added a lot of extra development cost. It would require oiling from the engine, which would change the whole front-engine cover scheme, etc.

 

[tbromley]

Ignoring cost and possiblythe ability to go around tighter bends, belts are used because they are much quieter than chains. Chains are also heavier, which might slightly affect throttle response time.

Considering how many NSX owners go to louder exhaust systems, a belt may not make sense.:biggrin: But, with other Honda engines as the design starting point, going to a chain might have added a lot of extra development cost. It would require oiling from the engine, which would change the whole front-engine cover scheme, etc.

A car company that has only done belts isn't going to chains even in their flagship - nope not happnin but I don't buy the idea that throttle response is going to suffer - not with BMW and Porsche making a livlihood with chains all these years and being a Porsche owner and enthusiast I am surely familiar with oiling chains and the issues up until the Carrera oil fed chain tensioners. Yep another totally different ball game.

We are lucky to just have the NSX - that was a pretty off the wall comment about chains but then they don't need replacement. That was the point - not so much why oh why although I believe it could have made a big difference.

However with all that said the point of the story is that there are no real normal driving stories of belts breaking in NSXs. Now "do ya feel lucky" etc., I never really have so I changed mine. But going with a late model car is there going to be a failure for a year or two over the time with 20k miles on the clock? Most likely not or I would even have to say categorically no. I mean there is just way too much info on Primer cars to the contrary for me to believe that anyone is running a great risk in an 03 going a year out or even 2 and that was the point, again under normal street driving conditions. Is that good advice - maybe not. Probably not - would any self respecting NSX mechanic recommend going over - of course not, no more than Acura themselves would.

I think when I listened to the above You Tube excerpt on that, which by the way was waaaay fuzzy and difficult to listen to, said 4 years and 60k miles - so am I now going to go less than manufacturers recommendations - well hell no.

There are just stories I keep hearing over and over of guys with 91 or 92s going till 2008 for example before someone woke up and put in the TB. There are many - the last thread on this subject folks did a little testifying. It was shocking, surprising, and yet very comforting at the same time. There have always been these examples and by the same token there are those that would say to the new owner - don't drive it home - it's 6 months out of service interval on the TB - it could break! We've all seen it - haven't we - is that an alarmist perspective from "Chicken Little" - I think so. All I'm saying.