installed my bbsc........

[sjs]

This thread was pointed out to me by a friend, who thought I might have some input. ...

Welcome, and thanks for stopping by and sharing your experience!

At 357 HP the BBSC seems to be making less than the typical power for the basic ~6lb version, yet you mention an after-cooler which makes it sound like the higher boost Novi 2000. Can you tell us a bit more about the car? You also show a ’94 making 400+ HP, but no mention of the mods. Can you tell us about that car?

Also, I noticed you don’t show the A/F graph, which would be very informative.

Thanks again.

 

[fusionsport]

other than posting the link to the dyno run, which is already common knowledge I do not feel comfortable giving out details of the car without the owners permission, which is why I havent posted or linked to any of the data logs or other specific information. I can check with the owner tomorrow and see what he will allow to be posted

Yes the car has the high boost system, but even the low boost system should benefit from the aftercooler, and I personally believe that no car should ever run boost without some form of charge cooling.

 

[KGP]

my post turbo quoted to post whats above, please read it COMPLETELY and dont take out of context as he did. then go back and read the comments I insert on his response to this (my post) TIA

Sorry David, but I'm having a bit of trouble following you. And, the point is?

 

[CiaoBoy]

I think that we should arrange a FI shoot out. Maybe go to the dyno and then to the track. The Northwestern group has every flavor of FI (Gruppe M-Bonez, High boosted comptech-Number 9, Aerodyne twin turbo-Tunapie,and myself) I know there are also some BBSC's in the area but I have never seen one at the club meeting. Are you guys willing? Anybody want to see the results?

I'd suggest only doing the dyno runs to be directly compared with each other. The track results won't be as objective because driver skill, tires/traction, weight-loss mods will skew the results. You're welcome to do the track tests for fun though.

-CiaoBoy

 

[len3.8]

yes- the TEC3 is pretty rudimentary, its sensor selection and setup not nearly flexible enough,not as easy as it should be to add in a wideband, in fact there is NO dedicated wideband input, which is as far as I am concerned is imperative to tuning any EMS.I find the user interface clumsy and less than ideal. Its harness and connectors are among the worst I have ever seen. I am of course biased, working with a MoTeC dealer, being a dealer for DTA, and having used nearly every engine management system out there.

Being fluent on many EM systems, what would you use on a OBDII car?
What would work with the throtlw by wire system? Without reverting it back to OBDII? Not directed at you, but tired of hearing that solution. If that in fact is the true only solution then fine.
Len

 

[Yellow Rose]

Clarification

Andy's BBSC is also no where NEAR a base kit.....

There are only three things different form my kit.

1 - I have low comp pistons, which if anything compared to stock will make less power.

2 - Aftercooler, which I have not done with vs without dyno pulls, but intuitively will not have a big difference in power.

3 - Novi 2000 vs Novi 1000, and that is not a major factor either, because offhand I can think of three BBSCers with the Novi 1000 that make about the same power as I do.

NetViper's comment that implied that my car is special so as to make more power than Turbo NSX's car did when it was equipped with the BBSC concludes nothing.

Andy.. why dont you both run your car at the dragstrip and you can both compare times and trap speed.. then we can see..

Because drag racing does not interest me. I modded my NSX for road coarse action. However, last November I clicked off a best of 4.2 in a 0-60 and last month a Porsche TT and I were virtually side-by-side as we buried the speedo until we ran out of pavement. That's plenty good enough for me.

Am I bragging about the BBSC? You bet I am! Am I willing do layout twenty grand for a GJ engine? No way! Is the BBSC a very affordable forced induction kit? That is your question to answer, but if you need help....."yes"!

 

[fusionsport]

MoTeC M800 will run drive-by-wire applications, but it is expensive and would require a lot of tuning. If you wanted to kep the OEM harness you could simply use an adapter harness from the MoTeC ECU to the OEM harness.EFI Technologies I think also has a new system that will do drive-by-wire, but again its pricey and not as well supported in this country.

I suppose someone like Hondata could turn the factory ecu into a programable one much like they do for the integras, but I am not sure they could deal with the throttle issue either. I have never even thought to ask them about anything for the NSX.

converting to OBD1 isnt the only answer, its just the easiest and least expensive. Obviously if you go MoTeC and have them make a harness for you that is just as easy as going back to OBD1, and you wouldnt need to keep the drive-by-wire throttle. Again this isnt at all inexpensive, although I would think an ODB1 backdate wouldnt be cheap either.

If I were going to change ecus on a later car IMO there are three options-

convert to OBD1 harness and go to AEM

have a harness made and use the DTA engine management (best value option to MoTeC)

go to MoTeC and use their harness

 

[Yellow Rose]

Well my car on the dyno only seemed to put down 323 hp with a BBSC, say a difference of 70 hp from stock and between 6500-8000 rpm. Andy, If you would like I can post my BBSC dyno plot for the first time (since I was embarassed to post it when I had the kit) We can all get a laugh then.

Then blame your engine, not the BBSC. Most of the stock engines with the basic BBSC make upwards of +380 RWHP. For you to be embarassed that yours was making power in the low-threes is clearly an indicator of a sick engine, and for you to imply it was a "faulty" BBSC kit is absurd. As far as "getting a laugh", I know what I would be giggling about.

 

[Yellow Rose]

How can you say comparing the kits is ridiculous.

BBSC - 8 to 10 PSI vs GJT - 18 to 20 PSI.

Now, you tell me how that is a comparison on the same playing field.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Testosterone

I think that we should arrange a FI shoot out. Maybe go to the dyno and then to the track. The Northwestern group has every flavor of FI (Gruppe M-Bonez, High boosted comptech-Number 9, Aerodyne twin turbo-Tunapie,and myself) I know there are also some BBSC's in the area but I have never seen one at the club meeting. Are you guys willing? Anybody want to see the results?

Ahh yes, another case of my device is bigger than your device.

 

[NetViper]

I would say this comparison is more for Bang for the Buck vs my thing is bigger than yours.

If we can get a turbo kit with 400Hp for roughly the same as a high-boost BBSC (i have no idea what either cost).. then we should see what is the best route to go.

Nothing to be afraid of..

 

[Yellow Rose]

Where Is It ???

If we can get a turbo kit with 400Hp for roughly the same as a high-boost BBSC (i have no idea what either cost).. then we should see what is the best route to go.

Then where is it? Cybernation's kit is not available to the public yet, and everything I've heard about GJ's kit involves a lot more $ than MB's kit.

For the BBSC x PSI kit or the BBSC y PSI kit, the cost delta is nothing more than an aluminum pulley that might cost $2-300 to machine. Anybody want to convince me that a GJ turbo kit making well into the teens of boost will cost only $2-300 more than a BBSC? Try to convince me.....you won't and this is why.

The BBSC is platformed on the popular Paxton blower. Paxtons have been known to put out +20 PSI. Guess what, all it takes is a pulley change to spin it faster, so why spend the extra money on a mega-buck turbo kit? Not slamming GJ's work, it is a fabulous package. But comparing the two kits doesn't mesh well. You gonna try to convince me that even if the costs are similar, your gonna install a mega-boost turbo kit on a stock engine? Yeah, right.

Just wondering outloud. What if you put a real small pulley on a Paxton to spin the crap out of it to make (fill in your desired boost) ___ PSI. Boost comes in at, say 2000 RPM. (Mine is at 2500 RPM w/o such a pulley, so this is a realistic approach.) But to protect the engine, you install an electronically controled valve to ensure that boost is something more realistic with stock engine guts and is fully repeated 100% of the time at the set value. What do you have? A supercharger the produces low-end torque of a turbo charger. Now the only thing setting the two kits apart is how much ultimate boost you want to run, and that is a function of how much you are willing to spend beefing up the engine.

 

[KGP]

How can you say comparing the kits is ridiculous.

BBSC - 8 to 10 PSI vs GJT - 18 to 20 PSI.

Now, you tell me how that is a comparison on the same playing field.

I don't think anyone wants such a comparison. I think the more fair comparison would be the low boost BBSC v the low boost GJTC. Rougly the same cost also.

 

[GQ NSX]

If I were going to change ecus on a later car IMO there are three options-

convert to OBD1 harness and go to AEM

have a harness made and use the DTA engine management (best value option to MoTeC)

go to MoTeC and use their harness

Fusion so if someone ideally wanted to eventually go turbo..they should go with a pre95 car? How much more could the obd2-->1 conversion cost? I'm learning quite a bit from this thread.

ravi

 

[prova4re]

ravi
Devin from Payn could give you a price on the conversion, I think he is the only one that has done it so far.

 

[PaynNSX]

And the topic was...

installed my bbsc........

Well here are the pictures of bbsc....to bad i cant get it to work properlly...i keep getting cam possition sensor code 1381 ..but the car runs ..i can wait for it to be 100% running right..hopefuly mark will fix it when he gets back from nsxpo..but i love the kit ..just cant wait..

Congrats on the install. I know you will love your new-found power. Please keep us informed of any updates (I know the moderators will keep things on track from now on).

 

[BadCarma]

Sorry David, but I'm having a bit of trouble following you. And, the point is?

I just reread my post that you are refering to and see it is a bit hard to follow so I deleted it. the whole thread has swayed way off and I am out on this one for good.

 

[Turbo NSX]

Re: Where Is It ???

If we can get a turbo kit with 400Hp for roughly the same as a high-boost BBSC (i have no idea what either cost).. then we should see what is the best route to go.

Then where is it? Cybernation's kit is not available to the public yet, and everything I've heard about GJ's kit involves a lot more $ than MB's kit.

For the BBSC x PSI kit or the BBSC y PSI kit, the cost delta is nothing more than an aluminum pulley that might cost $2-300 to machine. Anybody want to convince me that a GJ turbo kit making well into the teens of boost will cost only $2-300 more than a BBSC? Try to convince me.....you won't and this is why.

The BBSC is platformed on the popular Paxton blower. Paxtons have been known to put out +20 PSI. Guess what, all it takes is a pulley change to spin it faster, so why spend the extra money on a mega-buck turbo kit? Not slamming GJ's work, it is a fabulous package. But comparing the two kits doesn't mesh well. You gonna try to convince me that even if the costs are similar, your gonna install a mega-boost turbo kit on a stock engine? Yeah, right.

Just wondering outloud. What if you put a real small pulley on a Paxton to spin the crap out of it to make (fill in your desired boost) ___ PSI. Boost comes in at, say 2000 RPM. (Mine is at 2500 RPM w/o such a pulley, so this is a realistic approach.) But to protect the engine, you install an electronically controled valve to ensure that boost is something more realistic with stock engine guts and is fully repeated 100% of the time at the set value. What do you have? A supercharger the produces low-end torque of a turbo charger. Now the only thing setting the two kits apart is how much ultimate boost you want to run, and that is a function of how much you are willing to spend beefing up the engine.

Andy, I am going to break this down for you again.

First off I spent roughly the same amount on the BBSC as I did the GJ turbo (approx $8000). I have NOT picked up the car yet from having the engine rebuilt, so I am not comparing the 20psi kit to the BBSC. SO the max boost I have pushed on the stock block was 10psi.

Second, It doesn't cost anything for me to change my boost from 8 psi to 20 psi. With a turbo I only have to change the setting on the boost controller. No blower change or anyhting else.

The main difference between the two kits is not how much boost you can run with each....It is TORQUE.

 

[fusionsport]

Fusion so if someone ideally wanted to eventually go turbo..they should go with a pre95 car? How much more could the obd2-->1 conversion cost? I'm learning quite a bit from this thread.

ravi

This is way too debatable.. but personally yes if I were looking to specifically go FI I would buy a pre95, build a bored 3.2 motor with appropriate blockwork, and either build a close ratio 6 spd or just keep the fiver with appropriate ratios. Personally I would use an OS Giken multi disc clutch, or perhaps one of the newer multi-plate exedys. If I were to build an FI car I would likely do a twincharged car, either blowing through a comptech or in a semi-sequential setup using a centri pushing about 6psi with a relatively large turbo coming in around 4500. I would likely use the AEM for simplicity and for the flexibilty it offers. Fortunately for the world at large I am far too into my Porsche and DSM projects to bother building such an NSX for myself.

Just to kinda get back on topic-
the problem with the bbsc, or any other FI system is not in the hardware. It is in the installation and tuning. There are, granted, some shortcomings with the kit, and I am sure Mark is addressing them. Regardless, when you modify a car, any car, it is up to you to ensure it is properly tuned, or to see that it is properly tuned. Faulting a manufacturer for a bad install or bad luck is ludicrous. Even if Mark himself installs the system and it later melts down, there should be a careful evaluation before placing blame. I have ben working in the racing industry most of my adult life, and this is just how I see it.

Incidentally, and on a side note.. When dynoing the bbsc car I noticed it is extremely tolerant to lean mixture conditons, much more so than say a supra, rx7, etc. I credit this with Hondas head design, as they were pioneers in the "lean-burn" engine. In fact unlike most FI cars. like my personal GSX for example, when the car would hit around 13-1 afr it was still making power, with absolutely no sign of knock or misfire, where my GSX begins to lose power. I think perhaps most tuners run the NSX a bit too rich- every engine is different, and I think best power will be made in a low-compression NSX motor at around 12.5/12.8-1 AFR. I did notice that anything richer than 12.1-1 loses paower dramatically. Where a Supra will make power at 11.5-1, an NSX will be really unhappy.

 

[fusionsport]

Any file I sent would be next to worthless for you, as it is tuned specifically to the vehicle it is being used in, and might actually cause you to spend more time chasing back and forth. I sent you a PM and am willing to do whatever I can to help you out.

I highly recommend that befroe you really try and make power you are sure of your supporting mods, in your case I recommend doing the math to acertain injector size, adding a proper FPR, etc. This is of paramount importance NO MATTER WHAT. If you have the aftercooler i have developed a couple of items to improve performance there as well. If you do not have the aftercooler I highly recomend adding one, esp if you are still on the High compression engine.

 

[GQ NSX]

Thanks for the informative post fusion, really it does help. I guess to make big power (with the fi options in the status quo) one should go with a pre 95.

Thanks much

ravi

 

[Yellow Rose]

Andy, I am going to break this down for you again.

Thanks for being patient, I must be a real slow DA to you.

The main difference between the two kits is not how much boost you can run with each....It is TORQUE.

I know that. Go back and re-read one of my previous posts where I state that the two kits are not comparable because of different operating platforms; therefore, they will have different power / torque characteristics.

Now go back and re-read my most recent post (that you glazed over or simply ignored the last paragraph) where I discuss electronic boost control application for a very fast spinning Paxton. What do you get? More torque at lower RPM that emulates that of a turbo.

 

[KGP]

... electronic boost control application for a very fast spinning Paxton. What do you get? More torque at lower RPM that emulates that of a turbo.

I recall someone mentioning this at XPO- might have been Mark himself. Are there any out there yet? More moving parts? How does this work on an SC?

 

[Lud]

I thought there were already Novi2000 BBSC cars that were overdriven? It was brought up back in April in the following thread and I got the impression that it was under testing then: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16648

If it HAS been done, I would love to find out answers to the 3 questions I asked back then near the top of the 2nd page of that thread. Honestly I thought that overdriving the system was the whole point of using the big Novi2000 blowers but again I may just be out of the loop...?? I'd love to know.

Anyway, it's certainly possible to achieve gains by overdriving a blower but it also introduces a new set of issues you have to consider and design for.

In real life it is not too long before you typically reach a point of diminishing returns, and the complexity is considerably increased (among other things some sort of cooler becomes a must-have) which is why you do not see this kind of setup on great numbers of vehicles.

A few main issues you have to deal with when overdriving are:

Large increases in heat. The theoretical increase in temperature corresponding to an increase in pressure can be calculated as T2 / T1 = (p2 / p1) ^ (1 - 1/gamma) with the gamma value for air being about 1.4 for an exponent of about 0.286

Also, the more over-driven the system, the touchier it tends to become in normal "around town" driving and just off idle.

Also, if you go with too small a pulley (too tight a diameter) you'll go through belts quick, fast and in a hurry because they'll get too hot from all that extra flexing.

 

[KGP]

Thanks for reminding me of that thread, Lud. But, what I recall hearing was that MB was working on a way to turn up or turn down the "overdrive" of the/a system. I dunno, maybe I dreamed that up!?