Injector Cleaner

[NSX 3.0]

Has anyone tried any or had any luck with fuel injector cleaner that you just add to your gas tank. There are a lot of brands out there and I was just wondering if anyone has noticed a difference after using it.

Steven 91 Blk/Ivory

 

[lemansnsx]

Originally posted by Steven Spanbauer:
Has anyone tried any or had any luck with fuel injector cleaner that you just add to your gas tank. There are a lot of brands out there and I was just wondering if anyone has noticed a difference after using it.

Steven 91 Blk/Ivory

I use the Chevron Techron products regularly in all of my vehicles with good results. I can't say that I've noticed a difference after use but I regard it as more of a preventative maintenance item. I can say that is has helped after receiving a tank of bad gas.



------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

 

[NSXLNT]

I also started using Techron after reading about it somewhere in the FAQ, also as a preventative.

 

[NSX 3.0]

Andrew where can you buy it.

Steven 91 Blk/Ivory

 

[lemansnsx]

Originally posted by Steven Spanbauer:
Andrew where can you buy it.

Steven 91 Blk/Ivory

Years ago when I first started using it only specialty stores or mail order carried it. Now, luckily, everybody has it - even Manny, Moe, and Jack's place...
(Pep Boys, for those who don't live around these heah parts)


------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

 

[Soichiro]

Many shops use a product called BK-44. This is concentrated stuff and should only be used with a full tank of gas every 30,000 miles. If you use Techron regularly you may not need this stuff; but it may help those cars driven such that carbon buildup becomes a problem.

 

[hyuan]

Why not just pump chevron into your tank? The additive is already in there.

 

[nsxtasy]

What's Chevron? Is that a type of gasoline?

 

[Yellow Rose]

Chevron is a brand of gasoline - just like Shell, Exxon, Amoco, etc. If you use brand name gasoline with a quality deterdent additive, you shouldn't have to use supplemental injector cleaners.

Chevron is headquartered in San Francisco, so that may explain why there are no Chevron stations in the Midwest.

Oil company trivia - Chevron, Amoco, Exxon (Esso everywhere else in the world), are descendants of what oil company? John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company.

[This message has been edited by AndyVecsey (edited 27 December 2001).]

 

[lemansnsx]

Originally posted by AndyVecsey:
Chevron is a brand of gasoline - just like Shell, Exxon, Amoco, etc. If you use brand name gasoline with a quality deterdent additive, you shouldn't have to use supplemental injector cleaners.

[This message has been edited by AndyVecsey (edited 27 December 2001).]

That might be true if the quality control was as good as you seem to think it is - or, maybe, if you could be sure that the gas that comes out of that brand-name pump is really what you think you are getting. The Amoco near me is pretty consistent - no problems and the gas gives good performance. The Shell down the road is not as good and their gas has produced lousy performance - which is why I don't go there anymore. YMMV.
I look at the Techron as cheap insurance and people who know far more about it than I do swear by the stuff so that is good enough for me.


------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

 

[lemansnsx]

Originally posted by hyuan:
Why not just pump chevron into your tank? The additive is already in there.

I don't have a Chevron anywhere near me and I'm quite happy using the occasional bottle of Techron.



------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

 

[Yellow Rose]

That might be true if the quality control was as good as you seem to think it is - or, maybe, if you could be sure that the gas that comes out of that brand-name pump is really what you think you are getting. The Amoco near me is pretty consistent - no problems and the gas gives good performance. The Shell down the road is not as good and their gas has produced lousy performance - which is why I don't go there anymore.

**********

The quality control with major brands is very strong. Variations off spec result in HEAVY fines levied by the EPA. I know, I used to work with the fuels department at a Shell refinery.

What many people do not know is that gas is gas is gas is gas....all day long. What makes each brand unique - Shell vs Amoco vs Exxon vs Chevron - is the additives that are blended in. This is what patents are based on, NOT the raw gasoline. It is common practice in the industry to "trade" gasoline stocks prior to blending. For example, there are no refineries in the Dallas area, but as you may know there are upwards of twenty in the Houston area. If the Exxon refinery gets in a pinch, they will buy the raw gasoline stock from Shell or Mobil or Amoco or whoever, and pipeline it to their Dallas area distribution plant. At that location, the patented additives are blended in and presto - you have genuine Exxon gasoline.

Isolated cases of "bad gas" happens. However, the logistics associated with a particular name brand consistently providing poor performance is overwhelming.

Another thing that is not common knowledge to most motorists. Nationwide, there are two major blends of gas - summer blend and winter blend. This is an emissions requirement mandated by the EPA. Gasoline marketers target a transition period timeframe of switching from summer blend to winter blend to summer blend. It is not uncommon for Mother Nature to throw a curve ball and have a short burst of hot weather when you have winter blend in your tank. Obviously, the opposite can also happen. How an engine is tuned depends on the resulting performance. Thus, someone can complain about a "tank of bad gas" when it really wasn't comtaminated gasoline, just a spec variation.

 

[DocL]

Great explaination Andy.

What is your opinion on the highly debated octane content?

 

[Yellow Rose]

Thank you.

The absolute-can't-go-wrong answer is to use whatever octane is published in the vehicle's owner manual. In the Shell refinery I mentioned, they had about ten different engines running 24/7 for two reasons - octane effectiveness confirmation and at the same time evaluate lube oil performance in the crankcase. Afterall, the engine is already running for the gasoline test, why not test the lube oil?

What is generally true is that if an engine does not detonate or ping with 87 octane gas, there is no need for 93 octane gas. However, there are exceptions to the rule. What if the engine begins to run hot for whatever reason - track event, high altitude, stuck thermostat, etc. Substituting a higher octane gas *may* temporarily help the situation until the engine returns to its normal operating condition. As lemansnsx points out, one could think they got some bad gas with the 87 octane stuff, when in fact the engine changed, now needing a higher octane fuel. This happened to me once. After I remedied the engine, I returned to low octane gas with no problems.

Some people say that if you have the engine turbocharged or supercharged, that 93 octane should be used over 87 octane. From a purely technical perspective, I am not 100% convinced of this. The purpose of running a higher octane fuel is to avoid detonation in a high compression engine. I believe a good compression test on an NSX engine yields something like 180 PSI in the combustion chamber. Adding a modest 6 PSI supercharger on top of the engine increases compression pressure only 3%. Any engine manufacturer that designs their street engine to properly operate within a 3% variation band before detonation occurs should be shot. However, in the same breath I will say that for a few pennies more per gallon, put in the highest octane street gas you can find. Afterall, we're talking about a rather expensive engine, so in my book running higher octane than what the manual calls for on a forced induction NSX engine is cheap insurance.

[This message has been edited by AndyVecsey (edited 28 December 2001).]

 

[Bruce]

No matter what brand of cleaner you choose, they all serve the purpose to clean, dissolve, and break down, sludge, dirty grim,sticky build-up and even carbon deposits. What most fail to understand is these cleaner's also break down your engine oil adhesion and lubrication properties. I don't recommend using these cleaners more than twice a year and I would suggest changing your engine oil and filter immeadiately afterwards, regardless of miles. If your engine has developed a need to use these cleaner's on a regular basis, I suggest trying other solutions. Consider your driving habits, where you regularly purchase your gas and re-evaluate your maintenance schedule and parts being used.

I feel Andy brought up some very good points. Understandably the proper octane rating for your vehicle would be the one that does not cause detonation. But with no disrespect, I cannot agree with the mathematical formula used ...

I believe a good compression test on an NSX engine yields something like 180 PSI in the combustion chamber. Adding a modest 6 PSI supercharger on top of the engine increases compression pressure only 3%. Any engine manufacturer that designs their street engine to properly operate within a 3% variation band before detonation occurs should be shot.

Not that I have an exact number, it just not that simple. 6psi on any NSX is not what I would consider "modest". 6psi. in first gear is not the same as 6psi. in fifth gear. Commonly overlooked, it is the "volume" of intake air that is more important. The pressures exerted, resulting from the explosion is what creates the power.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Respectfully, 6 PSI is a modest forced induction pressure when you consider that there are 9 PSI superchargers, a stealth project 11 PSI supercharger and an outragous 18 PSI turbocharger out there in NSX land.

As far as 6 PSI in 1st gear not being the same as 6 PSI in 5th gear, that is an incorrect statement. An engine generates the same horsepower at a given RPM regardless of what gear the transmission is in. Why? Because the volume of engine air intake is a fixed constant, as a function of RPM. What does vary with transmission gear selection is the output torque at the rear wheels because of the gear ratio multiplication.

Ok, lets bring this topic back to the original thread - injector cleaner.

If anyone wants to begin a new thread, I thoughly enjoy discussing HP and torque. One of my job duties is the design application of industrial power transmissions.

 

[Bruce]

Well yes, "modest" when you're comparing to others, I didn't catch that part, with that in mind, 18psi is "modest" compared to one with 30psi. So would you consider an NSX with a high compression ratio of 10.2 to 1 with 6psi of boost, modest to that of another(for example) with a lower 7.5 to 1 compression ratio and 18psi???
Yes, you are correct, according the "book" 6psi is 6psi and horsepower is horsepower, which I was well aware of. But I have found when applied to Automotive applications, these laws become theories,I'm guessing,due to "drag", "friction", "wear" and when refering to turbocharging,"load".Perhaps you may be able to shed some light these issues? Why it's necessary to run in 3rd or 4th gear on a dyno, especially when turbocharged? Also if "An engine generates the same horsepower at a given RPM regardless of what gear the transmission is in. ...the volume of engine air intake is a fixed constant, as a function of RPM"then why does a supercharged or turbocharged NSX need more fuel in the upper gears as opposed to the lower gears? Why if producing the same horsepower in any gear, build higher exhaust temperatures and leaner A/F readings in the upper gears if we don't add
fuel.
My appologies for continuing off the topic, but I wanted to directly discuss what was already here.

 

[NSXLNT]

Bruce, do these cleaners break down synthetics also? So by the manufacturer's recommendation of using a bottle every 3000 miles(on the Techron), I guess one could plan on running a bottle through a tankful of gas right before a scheduled oil change. I'm looking at a bottle of Techron right now, and they have a website listed at: www.techronconcentrate.com
I imagine we could find some answers there.

 

[lemansnsx]

Originally posted by NSXLNT:
Bruce, do these cleaners break down synthetics also? So by the manufacturer's recommendation of using a bottle every 3000 miles(on the Techron), I guess one could plan on running a bottle through a tankful of gas right before a scheduled oil change. I'm looking at a bottle of Techron right now, and they have a website listed at: www.techronconcentrate.com
I imagine we could find some answers there.

A cleaner that goes in the crankcase will certainly break down the oil and the oil and filter should certainly be changed immediately after using this type of cleaner. I have never heard of any ill-effects of a fuel-system cleaner on the oil.


------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

 

[lemansnsx]

Originally posted by NSXLNT:
I'm looking at a bottle of Techron right now, and they have a website listed at: www.techronconcentrate.com
I imagine we could find some answers there.

I highly recommend that anyone interested in this topic take a look at the Techron web site referenced above and read the article there.

------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

 

[NSX4U2]

Was strongly advised by Acura never to add injector cleaner to a fuel tank as it can cause materials/deposits etc. to break free and clog the fuel filter and possible the injectors.

Was told to ONLY add the cleaner directly to the fuel rail bypassing the tank and delivery system.

The Chevron product will not remove deposits in the tank (so they claim) as other stronger fuel cleaners will. I personally use the Techron product every 3K miles as well as ONLY their gas.

I was also told it is important to maintain the same fuel brand as mentioned above due to specific additives by each gasoline producing company (i.e. don't mix fuel brands)

Don't take the chance! The fuel rail cleaning method is a pressurized process and is less than $100.00 to do.

[This message has been edited by NSX4U2 (edited 30 December 2001).]

 

[lemansnsx]

Originally posted by NSX4U2:
Was strongly advised by Acura never to add injector cleaner to a fuel tank as it can cause materials/deposits etc. to break free and clog the fuel filter and possible the injectors.

Pardon me but "advised by Acura" how exactly? Acura the corporate entity? An AHM employee? An Acura dealer employee? What level? Sounds like the kind of crap that well-meaning people pass on without real knowledge. Not trying to bust chops or anything, just that it strikes me that way...



------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

 

[Bruce]

Originally posted by NSXLNT:
Bruce, do these cleaners break down synthetics also? So by the manufacturer's recommendation of using a bottle every 3000 miles(on the Techron), I guess one could plan on running a bottle through a tankful of gas right before a scheduled oil change. I'm looking at a bottle of Techron right now, and they have a website listed at: www.techronconcentrate.com
I imagine we could find some answers there.

]

Thanks,Yes I did find some interesting info.I also noticed that they used the word "can" quite often, and the dirty valve pictures, were probably taken from a poorly maintained vehicle built in the 60's. To me it was kinda like one of those oil additive commercials.The one where they take all the oil and coolant out of the engine and take the oil pan off. They then run the engine while spraying water from a hose into the engine. This is supposed to make us believe that their product is so great. Well, the water is a lubricant and it does a very nice job off cooling things off. So they could do that all day to any engine and it will run fine.Read the article written by Fred Rau entitled Snake Oil! </gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.bmwscruz.com/tech/tech003.html> for a detailed look at oil additives First we need to understand that Petroleum motor oil breaks down from fuel,oxidation,heat,stress and leaves carbon, varnish and sludge deposits in your engine.The Synthetic motor oils are supposedly just more resistant.Today most all good quality fuels already have detergents and additives, even Chevron claims their fuels have extra additives. Yet, on their site, Chevron claims fuels w/additives today are not enough....we end up paying for it twice. I don't recommend using the additive every 3000 miles, then again I don't even feel changing the oil every 3000 miles is necessary.(neither does Honda) Today's oils, filters and engine designs have greatly improved.
The most efficient way to clean deposits would be as NSXU2 has described, using something similar to BK-44,that Soichiro mentioned.

[This message has been edited by Bruce (edited 31 December 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Bruce (edited 31 December 2001).]

 

[nsxtasy]

I asked Mark Basch about this on the nsx-tech e-mail list, and this is what he said.

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I'd like to direct this question to Mark Basch and/or Barn Man and/or anyone else who has taken apart a lot of NSX engines.

I've seen a few folks recommend Chevron Techron fuel additive for the NSX and other fine cars. Upon reviewing the manufacturer's website, it seems that this is designed to dissolve deposits on fuel injectors, valves, etc. My question is, is this a legitimate concern on a well-maintained NSX? Or, put another way - how often have you seen these deposits on our engines?

"Ken, All- Interesting question, and an interesting time to ask it. I have just finished one NSX engine (for Paul and Heidi) last week and have four engines waiting for overhaul as we speak. I'm finishing one this week and starting the other three at the first of the year. Before this incredible coincidence of bad engines all showing up at one time I have rebuilt three NSX engines- two were for valve contact and one was oil pump failure due to over-revving. (of the current glut, two are over-revs with piston contact, one is oil pump failure at the track (a 3.2 from Canada) one of them ingested a 69.00 supercharger from spira-max, and one has an oil consumption problem after about 50k miles with various forced induction products.) Unfortunately, none of these are from my regular fleet of customers, at least not very "old" customers except the one that ingested the spira-max and I'm afraid he is going to tow his car somewhere else because I could not promise to start the repair before Feb 1. Point is, though I will be HAPPY to inspect even closer to answer this question, we won't really have enough data as to how these cars are maintained except asking the customer. Also, a primary reason for the amount of sludge we do see when we overhaul other Honda engines, is whether or not the engine has EVER been overheated. This can cause coke deposits and other burnt oil by-products to accumulate that look just like the kind of deposits you mention here. I will nonetheless ask my customers if they have ever used any cleaners or additives, and see if there is a correlation to engine appearance.

My opinion is that most additives are a waste of money and worse some can cause harm. If your car has a real problem, you can't pour a repair out of a can. Some engines have inherent design flaws that make some additives useful, but our cars do not. Some fuel additives can do a little cleaning of the fuel system, particularly the injectors, but some can destroy the cats. Some oil additives work by coating the cylinder walls with some form of PTFE, or Teflon base chemicals, but in our engines that is a real mistake. The cylinder walls have a porosity that is designed to hold oil droplets in place for lubrication and some of these oil additives plug up these pores. They even advertise that they do this as if it is a desirable condition. If you read a lot about our engine designs, you know that this is not desirable.

The only can (bottle, actually) that ever goes Pop near my NSX is Redline fuel system cleaner and Water Wetter. Period.

Also, there seems to be a glut of dealer installed products that sell for hundreds of dollars when sold as a system, even though the chemicals cost only a few dollars. Again, MY OPINION is that buying these expensive treatments from the dealers is a serious waste of money. Caveat Emptor.

Cheers, and
Happy Holidaze.
Mark Basch
SuperCharge for World Peace"

 

[NSX4U2]

Originally posted by lemansnsx:
Pardon me but "advised by Acura" how exactly? Acura the corporate entity? An AHM employee? An Acura dealer employee? What level? Sounds like the kind of crap that well-meaning people pass on without real knowledge. Not trying to bust chops or anything, just that it strikes me that way...

Sorry lemansnsx, I tried my best to translate from Japanese to english.