How 'bout that stock market?

To short sellers.

You wanted to make money from destroying Americas financial system, well you got what you deserved. Short sellers cost those of us who invested in this country a lot of money now they can pay it back.
 
steveny said:
To short sellers.

You wanted to make money from destroying Americas financial system, well you got what you deserved. Short sellers cost those of us who invested in this country a lot of money now they can pay it back.
Click to expand...


I am with you on this, prob those damn arabs shorting it anyway ;) I was loving the run on the eur/usd$ short and it went on a few months. I still don't feel this is the bottom long term but it feels more like a bottom then it was last time.
 
steveny said:
To short sellers. You wanted to make money from destroying Americas financial system, well you got what you deserved. Short sellers cost those of us who invested in this country a lot of money now they can pay it back.
Click to expand...
Yes, emotions are running high.

But if the companies being sold short (banks this time) were not so incredibly weak, over extended, vulnerable because of the risks they ran getting rich, they would not be sold short, would they?

Do you see anyone selling healthy companies like Microsoft or Honda short? No.

The people in these banks made a hell of a lot of money, the smart ones still have that money in their pocket. They made a hell of a lot of money because they took risks, gambled and were financially pretty tricky too, they sure are not dumb.

But a risk is exactly that. A risk. If a risk were not dangerous, then it would not pay very much. Everybody would do it including me. Right? Robbing a bank is risky, but if it works you can be rich. If not, well that’s the risk.

Risks are by definition risky. And unfortunately they fell victim to that risk. And they are victims now, of among other things, short sellers.

Short sellers are a natural part of that risk, that system. Actually they are a result of the system. You can’t blame things on them. Just like you can’t blame the police and society if you get caught getting rich taking a risk by robbing a bank.
It is just the way it works, and without elements like short sellers there would be a vastly reduced risk, thus vastly reduced possibility of profits. Or no profits at all.

And they shouldn’t be blaming short sellers because in any case they are saved. They DID get away with being risky getting rich. They are getting a second chance it seems. So we are not at the bottom yet.

Like young people who max out credit card after credit card, then find another on in the post today, I believe they will just keep going like this until there is no one to bail them out. At that point, we will be at the bottom of the curve.

But I hope the regulators don’t let that happen.

I sure wish I had opened a bank and got rich being reckless, made profitable but risky loans for example. I will next time, you can bet on it. Definitely. Because I know I will be bailed out. Unfortunately, millions of others like me will be trying to do that too so it won’t work.

It almost seems like the banks KNEW they would be bailed out…

Just a layman’s perception, please be gentle…:smile:
 
710 said:
Yes, emotions are running high.

But if the companies being sold short (banks this time) were not so incredibly weak, over extended, vulnerable because of the risks they ran getting rich, they would not be sold short, would they?

Do you see anyone selling healthy companies like Microsoft or Honda short? No.

The people in these banks made a hell of a lot of money, the smart ones still have that money in their pocket. They made a hell of a lot of money because they took risks, gambled and were financially pretty tricky too, they sure are not dumb.

But a risk is exactly that. A risk. If a risk were not dangerous, then it would not pay very much. Everybody would do it including me. Right? Robbing a bank is risky, but if it works you can be rich. If not, well that’s the risk.

Risks are by definition risky. And unfortunately they fell victim to that risk. And they are victims now, of among other things, short sellers.

Short sellers are a natural part of that risk, that system. Actually they are a result of the system. You can’t blame things on them. Just like you can’t blame the police and society if you get caught getting rich taking a risk by robbing a bank.
It is just the way it works, and without elements like short sellers there would be a vastly reduced risk, thus vastly reduced possibility of profits. Or no profits at all.

And they shouldn’t be blaming short sellers because in any case they are saved. They DID get away with being risky getting rich. They are getting a second chance it seems. So we are not at the bottom yet.

Like young people who max out credit card after credit card, then find another on in the post today, I believe they will just keep going like this until there is no one to bail them out. At that point, we will be at the bottom of the curve.

But I hope the regulators don’t let that happen.

I sure wish I had opened a bank and got rich being reckless, made profitable but risky loans for example. I will next time, you can bet on it. Definitely. Because I know I will be bailed out. Unfortunately, millions of others like me will be trying to do that too so it won’t work.

It almost seems like the banks KNEW they would be bailed out…

Just a layman’s perception, please be gentle…:smile:
Click to expand...

Yes I do see stocks going down that are not financials. Rimm has dropped 30+ points because of this. Why? Because portfolios who hold companies like AIG are forced to sell non-financials to support the portfolio. So it's not just effecting companies with horrible fundamentals it's effecting the whole market. Your example of MSFT is a good example. That stock has nothing wrong with it yet it has sold off over the last month.

If the short sellers are so adamant about making money go ahead and short MSFT it's not on the list of banned shorting. Why isn't it cut in half today?
 
Just wait til the short sale rule is lifted.. anyone remember the last time they did this? Big pops, even bigger flops.

Lots of easy plays off news today if you were fast, .40 off GE getting on the short list, a dime off CIT, and a point of CEG. Friend of mine pulled nearly 7 full points off of CEG.

I would have had another great day but I got BLOWN out of the water early in the day. I was in four trades, over my usual limit on scalps at the same time. I jumped in BDC after all my screeners spit it out and low and behold didn't glance down at the volume until I already put my order out...

Sit down for this one-
BDCi.gif


I tried to buy when it was trading at 35.50 and it instantly went in to umode after I sent my order. It was frozen for 3-4 solid seconds and I did everything I could to get the hell out of there but I was stuck, completely at the mercy of the specialist. Then the specialist dumps me at 39.05. The next tick was 36 and I'm hitting every "out" hotkey I have, I get filled on the next tick at 35.05.

Fortunately I was only in a few hundred shares and not a couple thousand. I traded FXI and shorted gold some more and ended up OK by lunch. I won't soon forget to glance at volume again, even though my screeners are supposed to only show me 3day avg of 100k shares, it isn't going to give me my $,$$$ back.
 
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one of the biggest thing that peev'es me about this is that a lot of the financials were up 30% today...

You're telling me that company gained 30% of REAL VALUE overnight? Not a chance. Its just massive market manipulated pricing and I hope they all get obliterated once the ban is lifted... maybe teach the boys in washington to keep their hands of the markets once and for all.
 
da3dalus said:
one of the biggest thing that peev'es me about this is that a lot of the financials were up 30% today...

You're telling me that company gained 30% of REAL VALUE overnight? Not a chance. Its just massive market manipulated pricing and I hope they all get obliterated once the ban is lifted... maybe teach the boys in washington to keep their hands of the markets once and for all.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what happened the last time they did this a couple months ago. It's a joke. Earnings drive stock prices. Companies with negative earnings with no solution should not go up.
 
If you are going to hold this long for a while you are going to get your ass handed too you. All this is doing is going to make everyone get short. What really pisses me off is they changed the rules, Bonds went apeshit a move like today put a lot of people out of the bond market, biggest move in 20 years. I am not going to trade until I know what the new "Rules" are, right now if you trade this bullshit you are nuts. If you made money on this long it was 100% LUCK NO skill and you prob got your asses handed to you getting long the 3-4 months before this as well trying to be a CT hero to brag you "Cought" the bottom. Also I lost 0 this week I sat it out so I am not bitter because I lost money lol :)
 
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sahtt said:
Just wait til the short sale rule is lifted.. anyone remember the last time they did this? Big pops, even bigger flops.

Lots of easy plays off news today if you were fast, .40 off GE getting on the short list, a dime off CIT, and a point of CEG. Friend of mine pulled nearly 7 full points off of CEG.

I would have had another great day but I got BLOWN out of the water early in the day. I was in four trades, over my usual limit on scalps at the same time. I jumped in BDC after all my screeners spit it out and low and behold didn't glance down at the volume until I already put my order out...

Sit down for this one-
BDCi.gif


I tried to buy when it was trading at 35.50 and it instantly went in to umode after I sent my order. It was frozen for 3-4 solid seconds and I did everything I could to get the hell out of there but I was stuck, completely at the mercy of the specialist. Then the specialist dumps me at 39.05. The next tick was 36 and I'm hitting every "out" hotkey I have, I get filled on the next tick at 35.05.

Fortunately I was only in a few hundred shares and not a couple thousand. I traded FXI and shorted gold some more and ended up OK by lunch. I won't soon forget to glance at volume again, even though my screeners are supposed to only show me 3day avg of 100k shares, it isn't going to give me my $,$$$ back.
Click to expand...

HOLY F_CK that's horrible. My platform was acting way to wack to trade as much as I usually do. I caught the CIT move but it was just a rumor of making the list. I don't think it actually made the list.
 
Ryanmcd2 said:
If you are going to hold this long for a while you are going to get your ass handed too you. All this is doing is going to make everyone get short. What really pisses me off is they changed the rules, Bonds went apeshit a move like today put a lot of people out of the bond market, biggest move in 20 years. I am not going to trade until I know what the new "Rules" are, right now if you trade this bullshit you are nuts. If you made money on this long it was 100% LUCK NO skill and you prob got your asses handed to you getting long the 3-4 months before this as well trying to be a CT hero to brag you "Cought" the bottom. Also I lost 0 this week I sat it out so I am not bitter because I lost money lol :)
Click to expand...

naw, just bitter that you can't follow the heard and short it into the ground.
 
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this is off derringers blog yesterday... i thought it was pretty profound.

Our government is truly unbelievable.

Election + Fear = Stupidity.

The sort of ban that we saw this morning on shorting - 800 stocks - is both foolish and unprecedented.

There are many, many reasons to short a stock that have nothing to do with trying to drive a stock into the ground.

For example, if you're concerned about a preferred stock issue, you might short the underlying while being long the preferred. This gives you a 100% safe coupon - that is, dividend - while exactly balancing (or close to it) your risk.

This ability to hedge off that risk just disappeared.

Now has there been manipulative conduct and predatory shorting? Yes.

But you can't short a company and make money unless the company is overvalued in the first place. If you try it you will lose your shirt as the actual value, as discovered, will cause the price to rise instead of fall, your short sale notwithstanding.

And make no mistake about it - this crisis is not an accident. It is in fact a deliberate act - by our government.

Who enabled it?

Everyone.

Alan Greenspan, by flooding the market with money after 9/11 and the technology stock crash, for one.

Barney Frank and the rest of Congress, along with Bill Clinton, who made it public policy that everyone - from a daycare worker to a McDonalds' cook to someone on welfare - could and should own a house.

Both Clinton and Bush Administrations who intentionally looked the other way while rampant fraud ravaged Wall Street and Main Street both, including intentional blindness to outright false accounting in the form of "Level 3" assets and claims of solvency that were not and still are not true.

Now, just yesterday, we find out that The SEC made possible the expansion of leverage in the investment bank and broker/dealer community that made possible the loose lending which helped fuel the housing bubble and mess we are now in:

"The SEC allowed five firms — the three that have collapsed plus Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley — to more than double the leverage they were allowed to keep on their balance sheets and remove discounts that had been applied to the assets they had been required to keep to protect them from defaults.

Making matters worse, according to Mr. Pickard, who helped write the original rule in 1975 as director of the SEC's trading and markets division, is a move by the SEC this month to further erode the restraints on surviving broker-dealers by withdrawing requirements that they maintain a certain level of rating from the ratings agencies."

Yep - the SEC was not only involved but basically caused this mess.

And now that Congress is involved, we are going to get the mother and father of all debt - shoved down your throat:

"The proposal to create a massive facility to buy mortgage-backed securities could cost as much as a half-trillion dollars and would involve the purchase of both private-label and government-guaranteed mortgages, according to an administration official. "

This is nothing short of unbelievable, and that actually understates the cost, which is likely to be vastly more than stated. It always is.

Remember folks, the original estimate on the S&L bailout was that it would cost $20 billion.

The actual cost, when all was said and done, was approximately $160 billion dollars extracted from your wallets all across America.

So let's add it up - thus far:

*
Housing "bailout" bill, $300 billion
*
"Stimulus checks", $160 billion
*
"Back door" bailouts done without Congressional authorization, including "hidden" loans that may never be repaid, such as Bear Stearns and "temporary" clearing loans to Lehman Brothers, about $100 billion (in total)
*
Treasury's plan to back money market funds, $50 billion
*
This new "bailout", $500 billion

Oh, and don't believe that $500 billion number. Its a lie. I have long maintained that we have about $2-3 trillion of bad housing-related debt involved, of which only $200-300 billion has been written off.

So there's still $1.7-2.7 trillion out there to be cleared in this mess and you are going to get charged for all of it unless you literally take to the phones and the streets right now - this weekend - and stop it.

This sort of election-year pandering is beyond outrageous; it is nothing other than government theft (from you) to bail out the pigmen of Wall Street who have robbed you blind for the last decade.

WE THE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO SUPPORT THIS AND THIS SORT OF PANDERING AND OUTRAGEOUS CRAMDOWN OF THE COST OF WALL STREET'S MALFEASANCE UPON THE CHECKBOOK OF THE AMERICAN CONSUMER IS AN ACT OF ECONOMIC TREASON.

I hope you like INSANE (and real) monetary inflation because the raw monetary printing required to support this program is going to blow your mind (and household budget.)

What you're seeing today is the utter fear in the hearts of people who have made (correct) bets that the financial sector is radically overvalued and these firms are bankrupt; they have now been told that bankrupt or not, you, the taxpayer, are on the hook for their insolvency, despite THEIR bad decisions.

In addition the liquidity that was provided by the floor traders and others in the market who made those correct bets - many of whom will be broke today, literally - will permanent disappear from the market.

Oh, by the way, we don't have the money to do this in America, and not only has LIBOR not unlocked, but spreads haven't come in nearly as much as you would think if the problem was actually solved.

Beware chasing this - yes, we are going to be up huge today - probably 500+, maybe 1000+ on the DOW - think carefully about whether there has actually been a resolution to any of this mess, and whether the root problems identified here have been removed.

If you judge not, then we risk the mother and father of all market crashes at some point in the future - and probably not far in the future either.
Click to expand...
 
Ryanmcd2 said:
If you want to make money all you have to do is FADE Steve every trade and you will make some great cash, every time he says buy you sell.
Click to expand...

pretty much the truth when it comes to equities. :) The option trades have been keeping me happy though. I held some stuff too long and other stuff not long enough. I doubled my level 5 account this month selling puts to all the dooms day people.

I can not trade other peoples money.

edit, another person who posts on this thread bought some lotto ticket options for a couple of grand on WB and then sold them on Thursday for almost 200,000. those plays are out there in this market but you can't get there making 2 % per day playing it safe all the time.
 
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Anybody familiar with the Fidelity Active Trader program? I'm thinking about tinkering with some small amounts of money after seeing this thread so many times.

Now if I only knew wtf I was doing :biggrin:
 
steveny said:
pretty much the truth when it comes to equities. :) The option trades have been keeping me happy though. I held some stuff too long and other stuff not long enough. I doubled my level 5 account this month selling puts to all the dooms day people.

I can not trade other peoples money.

edit, another person who posts on this thread bought some lotto ticket options for a couple of grand on WB and then sold them on Thursday for almost 200,000. those plays are out there in this market but you can't get there making 2 % per day playing it safe all the time.
Click to expand...


2% on a 1.5 million $ account is not to bad is it? 30k a day?
 
Ryanmcd2 said:
2% on a 1.5 million $ account is not to bad is it? 30k a day?
Click to expand...

Sure I guess not, but until you put your trades up here in real time like I do who knows what end is up.

Monday post up your entry as it happens then post your exit as it happens. Do it in real time and we will see.

I have really put myself out in the open on this thread and I am pretty f-cking pissed about getting slapped twice now in the face for trying to help. I have been extremely specific in this thread and post in real time so I can not back pedal. NOT ONE OTHER PERSON (who posts regularly) ON THIS THREAD HAS DONE THE SAME.

This has been a horrible year in the market for a lot of people.
 
steveny said:
I have really put myself out in the open on this thread and I am pretty f-cking pissed about getting slapped twice now in the face for trying to help. I have been extremely specific in this thread and post in real time so I can not back pedal. NOT ONE OTHER PERSON (who posts regularly) ON THIS THREAD HAS DONE THE SAME...
Click to expand...

Whoa. I read his post too and expected to see a smiley at the end, I didn’t, but I still thought he was just kidding.

Steveny (and others), please don’t stop posting!

The rest of us are reading this thread everyday, most of us aren’t into the market as deep as you and some of the other posters are but we will certainly feel the consequences this market has on us.
It is VERY interesting and I’m very sure very few people are slapping you.

Anybody with an ounce of life experience and maturity would NOT dare to carelessly criticise anybody else about what they are doing is this situation.
If they do, they are a fool. (or just joking, which is probably good considering the seriousness of the situation).

(Constructive criticism, on the other hand, I think, never is taken the wrong way. At least by me, anyway)
 
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710 said:
Whoa. I read his post too and expected to see a smiley at the end, I didn’t, but I still thought he was just kidding.

Steveny (and others), please don’t stop posting!

The rest of us are reading this thread everyday, most of us aren’t into the market as deep as you and some of the other posters are but we will certainly feel the consequences this market has on us.
It is VERY interesting and I’m very sure very few people are slapping you.

Anybody with an ounce of life experience and maturity would NOT dare to carelessly criticise anybody else about what they are doing is this situation.
If they do, they are a fool. (or just joking, which is probably good considering the seriousness of the situation).

(Constructive criticism, on the other hand, I think, never is taken the wrong way. At least by me, anyway)
Click to expand...

The information provided in this thread is one sided. I put my trades up in real time. I post my entry point and my exit point. I do this as it is happening so there is no way for me to say anything other than the truth. Then I get criticized for losing money, by two different people so far, who HAVE NOT posted anything in real time but "claim" to have been making profits. That's all. If someone wants to criticize my trading method then post in real time first. Have some facts to back your point up. There is no doubt that some of my decisions have been pretty damn costly. There is big doubt that others claim to make a profit when they have posted nothing but opinions.

I want to see someone post .... going long ABC right now at X.xx then also post their exit point when they sell. JUST LIKE White98LS did. If his trade goes bad there is no way to back out. If his trade goes well there is no way to back out. BUT he put himself out there. He said this is where I am getting in, this is where I am getting out. Kudo's to him for having the balls and willing to put those balls on the block. I hope his trade goes well and I think it will.

Silverstone also posted in real time. He put himself out there too.


There are a lot of Nostradamus type vague predictors on this thread. Some of which are pretty smart people IMO and they make some really good points but nothing that can be time stamp proven.

I am not trying to start an argument. I am not trying to make a problem. I am simply saying if you want to bash my trading style and post about how great yours is... then dissect it and post it. Put your self out there or stop. This has never been an ego thing for me.


Anyways.... I am going fishing so I won't be back to post until tonight. Going to nail a huge bass today I just know it! However when I come home with a very small fish I suppose I will look like an idiot.:biggrin:
 
steveny said:
Anyways.... I am going fishing so I won't be back to post until tonight. Going to nail a huge bass today I just know it! However when I come home with a very small fish I suppose I will look like an idiot.:biggrin:
Click to expand...

I think we're going to need some pics otherwise who knows how big your fish really was if you don't post it here for all to see :tongue:

hehe
 

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