Honcho's Long Road to Imola Type-S Zero
- Thread starter Honcho
- Start date
Allegedly 70k miles. I don't have any other 5th gears to compare, but there are chunks of metal missing from some of the synchro teeth- is that normal wear? I'm hoping someone will talk me out of replacing the 5th gear, but if it must be done... Also, I'm replacing all the bearings and snap ring, along with synchro springs and all other small pieces. I want this transmission to last a long time, if needed.
Good catch. The grill fins should be black. The painter is going to add the flat black to this and the rear quarter panels where it appears from the factory.
- Joined
- 15 May 2004
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- 6,898
I've seen it on other trannys as well. Must be normal wear. Mine looked pretty worse. How does the hub look like?
Next on my list (someday) is to rebuild my Type R 5spd. TiDave is doing a deal for a torsen style diff for our trannys that use the factory ring gear. Sounds interesting. I'll be referring back to this thread!!!
That color looks INCREDIBLE. It must look insane in person.
That color looks INCREDIBLE. It must look insane in person.
I have a collection of 5th gear pics :biggrin:. Here's gold's from NSXUK. There's another thread on Prime about 6-spd 3rd gear popping out issues http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...ansmission-Problem-3rd-Gear-Keeps-Popping-Out.
In my unprofessional mind, the wear on the sides of the engagement teeth might be evidence of resting one's hand on the shifter when driving, some others might agree but I'm open to being corrected. This can result in the gear popping out under certain conditions. You might also be able to see that from the wear lines on the selector sleeve where the shift fork ends have been rubbing on the sleeve which should be due to lack of free play from constant pressure on the shift lever in gear.
Another gold pic, I assume of the same gear? Pretty bad wear on the engagement teeth and obvious wear lines on the sleeve.
Here's my old 5th gear on the left. My hypothesis would be that this type of wear is more evident of hard shifting or skip shifting into 5th (or worn synchro/hub teeth) since the wear is concentrated only on the tips of the gear engagement teeth. This to me would indicate the selector sleeve has not been properly engaging with the gear due to wear on the hub/synchro or bad/harsh driving habits.
All this to say that in my opinion it looks like the previous driver might've had a habit of resting a hand on the shifter in addition to some hard/skip shifting based on the gathering of metal on the teeth, it almost looks like the edges have been peeled off (but it appears a stock new gear has some chamfering as well from factory so not as bad as it looks). I would go ahead and replace the gear, $100 is cheap for maximizing longevity of the trans and prevent future popping-out issues which would be my main concern. If you really want 100% then you can replace the corresponding countershaft 5th gear to match wear patterns but I don't think it's necessary.
When you get to full disassembly of the shafts, I'd look closely at all the gear teeth and the teeth on the hubs/sliders to check for excess wear as well, or chips on the edge of the teeth. If you want to re-use a synchro then make sure to do the FSM feeler gauge measurement with the synchro/gear to check for remaining service life.
On another note, the differential will suck to work on without the factory holder tools like gold has. Disassembly is easy, you can zip off the bolts in the right pattern with an impact gun no problem. Reassembly is the issue, I had to have a 2nd person on hand with thick gloves to hold the diff for me which I torqued everything down, which takes like 10 rounds since the top hat of the diff will slowly compress the internal spring/clutch pack with the bolts until the correct torque is reached so it takes a while. You can do that thing we discussed a few months ago of cutting up a cheap Trakmotive CV axle to make your own holder tool but I didn't bother since I can't fab up stuff like that.
In my unprofessional mind, the wear on the sides of the engagement teeth might be evidence of resting one's hand on the shifter when driving, some others might agree but I'm open to being corrected. This can result in the gear popping out under certain conditions. You might also be able to see that from the wear lines on the selector sleeve where the shift fork ends have been rubbing on the sleeve which should be due to lack of free play from constant pressure on the shift lever in gear.
Another gold pic, I assume of the same gear? Pretty bad wear on the engagement teeth and obvious wear lines on the sleeve.
Here's my old 5th gear on the left. My hypothesis would be that this type of wear is more evident of hard shifting or skip shifting into 5th (or worn synchro/hub teeth) since the wear is concentrated only on the tips of the gear engagement teeth. This to me would indicate the selector sleeve has not been properly engaging with the gear due to wear on the hub/synchro or bad/harsh driving habits.
All this to say that in my opinion it looks like the previous driver might've had a habit of resting a hand on the shifter in addition to some hard/skip shifting based on the gathering of metal on the teeth, it almost looks like the edges have been peeled off (but it appears a stock new gear has some chamfering as well from factory so not as bad as it looks). I would go ahead and replace the gear, $100 is cheap for maximizing longevity of the trans and prevent future popping-out issues which would be my main concern. If you really want 100% then you can replace the corresponding countershaft 5th gear to match wear patterns but I don't think it's necessary.
When you get to full disassembly of the shafts, I'd look closely at all the gear teeth and the teeth on the hubs/sliders to check for excess wear as well, or chips on the edge of the teeth. If you want to re-use a synchro then make sure to do the FSM feeler gauge measurement with the synchro/gear to check for remaining service life.
On another note, the differential will suck to work on without the factory holder tools like gold has. Disassembly is easy, you can zip off the bolts in the right pattern with an impact gun no problem. Reassembly is the issue, I had to have a 2nd person on hand with thick gloves to hold the diff for me which I torqued everything down, which takes like 10 rounds since the top hat of the diff will slowly compress the internal spring/clutch pack with the bolts until the correct torque is reached so it takes a while. You can do that thing we discussed a few months ago of cutting up a cheap Trakmotive CV axle to make your own holder tool but I didn't bother since I can't fab up stuff like that.
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- Joined
- 15 May 2004
- Messages
- 6,898
Yes, same gear, 5th.Another gold pic, I assume of the same gear? Pretty bad wear on the engagement teeth and obvious wear lines on the sleeve.
I've changed everything on 5th, gear, sleeve/hub, fork, collar, needle bearing, synchro.
The interesting thing is that the thickness of the fork fingers and the distance between the sleeve groove and the fork fingers were still ok. 2 preowners.
For a while I had the bad habit to WOT in 2nd and shift with a pause to 5th. My gearbox has seen 5th quite often too. I don't cruise in 3rd or 4th if 5th is possible.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/212444-NA1-5-speed-Transmission-Rebuild-Thread
I just held onto the diff with one (gloved) hand and used the torque wrench with the other, no special holder tool required. You only need to use a torque wrench for final tightening, before that just work your way around the bolts in steps with a ratchet to quickly compress the internal springs. I usually do roughly half a turn on each bolt then move to the next one. The bolts will be pretty easy at first and then tighten up significantly once the case halves are together, then you switch to a torque wrench.
I don't think wear on the sides of the teeth is indicative of resting your hand on the shifter, it's just normal wear. Those are the surfaces that actually transmit torque from the gear to the shaft so there is going to be some wear there no matter what. 5th gear is the smallest so the load on the individual teeth is going to be higher, resulting in more wear than you see on other gears.
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That's what I figured. I also replaced every related 5th gear part too besides the fork, and based on what I've read I never skip shift and am very ginger with 5th. I usually cruise in 4th anyways on the street but sit at 3600 RPM at highway speeds in 5th lol.
Gotta give John credit here for his trans rebuild thread which is the current gold standard
.I tried with one hand and I guess I have T-rex arms so I had to give up, felt like I was mixing cake batter with a bowl covered in spikes. I used a torque wrench the whole time with gradually increasing settings up to spec just to be extra safe but it took a long time.
I'll get a look at the hub hopefully tonight, but I am replacing it. My main concern is if this wear is going to be an issue. I would hate to bolt the trans back together than then get grinding or weird noises in 5th... Although I may have to live with it- 5th might be on backorder.
I am also replacing all 5th-parts: hub, synchro and using the updated 5th fork. Just need to decide on the gear. It's in the cart, just not sure if it's actually in stock. John's thread is NSX Prime GOLD.
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I would not say you'd get grinding or weird behavior from those markings, my JDM 4th gear looked worse than that on the tips of the teeth and I had to reuse it since it's basically NLA and it still works perfectly fine.
I'm contradicting myself a bit, but if you have to re-use 5th IMO you probably wouldn't notice anything off. I remember I had to order mine from Flatiron Tuning which had a new one lying around randomly since it was backordered in JP, maybe Tim @ OEMAcuraParts could work his magic for you. The wear on the sides of the teeth still give me pause even if it's normal wear like John said, but with a new synchro and hub/slider it could be a non-issue.
I'm contradicting myself a bit, but if you have to re-use 5th IMO you probably wouldn't notice anything off. I remember I had to order mine from Flatiron Tuning which had a new one lying around randomly since it was backordered in JP, maybe Tim @ OEMAcuraParts could work his magic for you. The wear on the sides of the teeth still give me pause even if it's normal wear like John said, but with a new synchro and hub/slider it could be a non-issue.
Thanks! Your NSX-R conversion was one of my inspirations for this project!
Seeing it in person, I'm happier and happier that I went with this color. In the shade, it looks like almost copper. In "shaded" sun it looks orange. And, in direct sunlight it looks like a yellow sunburst. It's an amazing color- most of the color is tinted pearl flakes, which gives it these amazing properties. I was toying with Monte Carlo Blue Pearl, but I'm happy I stuck with the Imola.
Big McLargeHuge said:
This has to be the funniest post ever on a transmission rebuild thread.
Big McLargeHuge said:
If Amayama doesn't have it, I'll just re-use. From the pictures you posted, mine doesn't actually look that bad.
I wouldn't be worried about reusing that 5th gear but I would completely understand replacing it, lots of engine work boils down to paying more for more peace of mind. The teeth are still pointed on top and there isn't really any metal folding over like some of the worse examples we've seen.
MCBP is a lot more subtle
Which one? No link.
lol
Sorry, my aging eyes did not see the inserted link font. Yes, this car looks like the same Zero that was recently auctioned in Hong Kong. Looks like they're trying to flip it while NSX prices are hot. It's rare to see a stock one- Honda marketed the Zero is a good base for aftermarket tuning. So, most Zeros I've seen in Japan are heavily modified.
They are with the machine shop getting cleaned and clearanced with the heads. I hope to have the heads back by January- the shop is really backed up. The engine/rear subframe will likely be the last thing to go on the car except for maybe the rear bumper and quarter panels.
My guiding philosophy for this project, translated into 1990's Hondaspeak:
NSX TYPE-S ZERO - SUPER LIGHTWEIGHT HIGH-RESPONSE SPORTS CONCEPT
My last NSX was a daily driver used in all conditions including rain and snow, so I had to make design choices/compromises that supported that driving condition. This NSX is different- I want this car to be the perfect distillation of what the spirit of NSX is to me. The essence of early-90's Honda, if you will. To me, that means lightweight, high response and world-beating driver engagement. It must be as light as possible- I'm shooting for 1,200 kg. This is why I'm keeping the 91-96 brakes, for example- they're lighter. Same with the 16/17 Type-S wheels- light. And so on. Also, the driver engagement must be maximized. This means deleting the clutch damper and using the lightweight flywheel. It means manual steering and a cable throttle connected to a naturally aspirated engine. I'm using Shad's rigid toe-links and the NSX-R chassis bars combined with the NSX-R suspension. With the Comptech cams and RDX injectors, I'm shooting for 340 hp and 300+ at the wheels. My sincere hope is that when finished, this NSX will speak to me like those early 90's Hondas did. Every time I turn the key, I want to hear the spirit in the engine. Essentially, I'm trying to manifest the Eternal Sportsmind in the form of a car. I hope I am successful...it's a lot of work.
It's going to be very difficult to get down to 1200 kg...
Bruno's car ( [MENTION=14824]BBVNSX[/MENTION]) is at 1269 kg (http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/170650-BBVNSX-93-EDM-NSX-From-Portugal!/page7) post #162 and my turbo NSX is at 1301 kg both with a tank at 2/3 full.
Yeah it's going to be tricky. I hope I can at least hit the 1,230 kg of the NA1 NSX-R. By my math, I'm close.
Is the 1.230 Kg of the NSX-R with gas? I don't know how Honda started with a 1.370 Kg car, subtracted 120 Kg and ended with 1.230 Kg... 
Well my car is poewer steering (1.390 Kg), so you can save some weight there... but I also have many places where I saved weight compared to the R... Like CF bumper beams, headers, exhaust and cats coilovers ect. ect. ect.... My plan is to lower 120/130 Kg keeping A/C and P/S But it is not an easy task...
Well my car is poewer steering (1.390 Kg), so you can save some weight there... but I also have many places where I saved weight compared to the R... Like CF bumper beams, headers, exhaust and cats coilovers ect. ect. ect.... My plan is to lower 120/130 Kg keeping A/C and P/S But it is not an easy task...
Is the 1.230 Kg of the NSX-R with gas? I don't know how Honda started with a 1.370 Kg car, subtracted 120 Kg and ended with 1.230 Kg...
Well my car is poewer steering (1.390 Kg), so you can save some weight there... but I also have many places where I saved weight compared to the R... Like CF bumper beams, headers, exhaust and cats coilovers ect. ect. ect.... My plan is to lower 120/130 Kg keeping A/C and P/S But it is not an easy task...
We basically are making the same car.
I deleted P/S but am keeping OEM cats. CF b-pillar, side scoops and bumper beams. NSX-R suspension is heavy, but I'm using it because it make me happy to see those reservoirs on the rear shocks. 1,230 kg is the correct weight, but who knows how Honda determined this.
Paint and Body Work 46
Chassis just came out of the paint booth last night.
Also the trunk lid got one more coat of clear and the door pillars got color. At this point, all parts are painted.
Chassis just came out of the paint booth last night.
Also the trunk lid got one more coat of clear and the door pillars got color. At this point, all parts are painted.
Paint and Body Work 47
I visited the shop this morning and they rolled out the chassis so I could see in in the sun. Pictures do not do this color justice. The chassis is still pretty raw. It needs a couple of brush touches and they have to lay the black down in the headlight buckets and radiator stay. Then it needs to be washed, cut and buffed out. They are also going to put a thin layer of black bed liner in the wheel wells to dress it up a bit. Buffing work is ongoing with the body panels and I should be able to start bringing panels back home in a few days. Chassis should come back the week of Nov 30. Reassembly will start immediately.
Prepare yourself for Imola Orange overload! Interestingly enough, we did not have enough PPG color for the chassis, so we had to use the shop's Glasurit on most of it. The owner mixed it on his computer and then adjusted tone based on eye comparing to my PPG painted hood. One section of the chassis is painted with my PPG. Can you tell which part? I couldn't- the match was perfect.
I visited the shop this morning and they rolled out the chassis so I could see in in the sun. Pictures do not do this color justice. The chassis is still pretty raw. It needs a couple of brush touches and they have to lay the black down in the headlight buckets and radiator stay. Then it needs to be washed, cut and buffed out. They are also going to put a thin layer of black bed liner in the wheel wells to dress it up a bit. Buffing work is ongoing with the body panels and I should be able to start bringing panels back home in a few days. Chassis should come back the week of Nov 30. Reassembly will start immediately.
Prepare yourself for Imola Orange overload! Interestingly enough, we did not have enough PPG color for the chassis, so we had to use the shop's Glasurit on most of it. The owner mixed it on his computer and then adjusted tone based on eye comparing to my PPG painted hood. One section of the chassis is painted with my PPG. Can you tell which part? I couldn't- the match was perfect.
