17/17 and 17/18 Tire Choices - not much left.

[Rope]

The Kumhos are good tires and I have enjoyed them but seeing how much more the PSS holds and communicates what is happening in the rear makes me want to try them on the front. Even though they are in the same performance category according to Tirerack the difference in the two brands is rather noticeable. The current setup is pretty good and I am half way tempted to keep it the way it is.

 

[nsxtasy]

The Kumhos are good tires and I have enjoyed them but seeing how much more the PSS holds and communicates what is happening in the rear makes me want to try them on the front.

If you're referring to the Michelin Pilot Super Sport, the problem with that tire is that it doesn't come in any sizes to fit the NSX front. If you're looking for more grip and communication than the Kumho Ecsta LE Sport (with the downside of a bit less treadlife), consider the Dunlop Direzza ZII or the Yokohama Advan Neova AD08R, which come in 215/40-17 for the front and the usual 18" rear sizes.

 

[solidol]

Ecsta LE is good tire for tooling around. And it's great on wet too. But ZII and AD08 are simply in a different league.

 

[RYU]

Can anyone comment on the road noise difference between the ZII and the AD08Rs? I have the Z1s now and they're noisy on the fwy (not awful, but noticeably louder than the Azenis 615K and Federal RSR)

 

[stuntman]

Not sure if itll help but AD08 was quieter than the starspecs.

 

[L_RAO]

Can anyone comment on the road noise difference between the ZII and the AD08Rs? I have the Z1s now and they're noisy on the fwy (not awful, but noticeably louder than the Azenis 615K and Federal RSR)

Next time you drive my car you can get a reference point for the ZIIs.

 

[stuntman]

This list really needed to be updated. It may not be 100% correct so feel free to copy, edit, and re-post it. Unfortunately I can't edit the OP.

Red means its no longer available, there were a few others that I just deleted instead of highlighting in red. These are vaguely in order of performance:


Front: 17x7.5 - 17x8

215/40-17:

-Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08 & AD08R (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Dunlop Direzza Sport Z11 Star Spec (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Falken Azenis RT-615K (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Kumho Ecsta LE Sport (Max Performance Summer)
-Continental ExtremeContact DW* (Max Performance Summer) * Not on Tire Rack but everywhere else.
-BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force Sport (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-Sumitomo HTR Z II (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-Yokohama S.drive (Ultra High Performance Summer)


235/40-17:

-Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08 & AD08R (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Bridgestone RE-11 ( Extreme Performance Summer)
-Nitto NT05 (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Dunlop Direzza Sport Z11 Star Spec (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Falken Azenis RT-615K (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Toyo Proxes R1R (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (Max Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force Sport (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-Yokohama S.drive (Ultra High Performance Summer)

-Maxxis Victra RC-1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-BFGoodrich R1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Nitto NT01 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Toyo RA-1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Toyo R888 (Track & Competition DOT)


Rear: 17x8.5 - 17x10

255/40-17:

-Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08 & AD08R (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Dunlop Direzza Sport Z11 Star Spec (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Falken Azenis RT-615K (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Nitto NT05 (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Toyo Proxes R1R (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (Max Performance Summer)
-Kumho Ecsta XS (Max Performance Summer)
-Continental ExtremeContact DW (Max Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force Sport Comp 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-Sumitomo HTR Z III (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-Yokohama S.drive (Ultra High Performance Summer)

-BFGoodrich R1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Nitto NT01 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Toyo R888 (Track & Competition DOT)


265/40-17:

-Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (Max Performance Summer)


275/40-17

-Toyo Proxes R1R (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (Max Performance Summer)
-Nitto NT05 (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Continental ExtremeContact DW (Max Performance Summer)*
-BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)*
-BFGoodrich g-Force Sport (Ultra High Performance Summer)*
-Yokohama S.drive (Ultra High Performance Summer)*
-Falken Azenis RT-615K (Extreme Performance Summer)

-Maxxis Victra RC-1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-BFGoodrich R1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Nitto NT01 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Toyo R888 (Track & Competition DOT)


Rear: 18x9.5 - 18x10.5

255/35-18:

-Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08 (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Toyo Proxes R1R (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Dunlop Direzza Sport Z11 Star Spec (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Nitto NT05 (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Michelin Pilot Super Sport (Max Performance Summer)
-Continental ExtremeContact DW (Max Performance Summer)
-Kumho Ecsta LE Sport (Max Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force Sport Comp 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-Yokohama S.drive (Ultra High Performance Summer)


265/35-18:

-Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD08 & AD08R (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Dunlop Direzza Sport Z11 Star Spec (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Falken Azenis RT-615K (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Michelin Pilot Super Sport (Max Performance Summer)
-Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (Max Performance Summer)
-Nitto NT05 (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Continental ExtremeContact DW (Max Performance Summer)
-Kumho Ecsta XS Sport (Max Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force Sport Comp 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
Sumitomo HTR Z II (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-Yokohama S.drive (Ultra High Performance Summer)

-Maxxis Victra RC-1 (Track & Competition DOT)


275/35-18:

-Dunlop Direzza Sport Z11 Star Spec (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Nitto NT05 (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Kumho Ecsta XS Sport (Max Performance Summer)
-Michelin Pilot Super Sport (Max Performance Summer)
-Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (Max Performance Summer)
-Falken Azenis RT-615K (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Continental ExtremeContact DW (Max Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force Sport Comp 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)
-Yokohama S.drive (Ultra High Performance Summer)

-Maxxis Victra RC-1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-BFGoodrich R1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Nitto NT01 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Toyo RA-1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-Toyo R888 (Track & Competition DOT)


295/35-18:

-Nitto NT05 (Extreme Performance Summer)
-Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (Max Performance Summer)
-Continental ExtremeContact DW (Max Performance Summer)
-BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 (Ultra High Performance Summer)[/QUOTE]

-Toyo R888 (Track & Competition DOT)



As you can see, not all of the models have applications for both front and rear. This has me concerned when looking 4-5 years into the future with little hope that we will find a good performing matching set for our NSX.


For my favorite sizes, here's my recommendations:

215/40-17 & 265/35-18

-Yokohama AD08R
-Dunlop Direzza Sport Z11 Star Spec
-Falken Azenis RT-615K
-Continental ExtremeContact DW


215/40-17 & 275/35-18

-Dunlop Direzza Sport Z11 Star Spec
-Falken Azenis RT-615K
-Continental ExtremeContact DW


235/40-17 & 265/35-18

-Yokohama AD08R
-Nitto NT05 - very impressed with these. Did a 1:58.9 at Buttonwillow with them.
-Falken Azenis RT-615K

-Maxxis Victra RC-1 (Track & Competition DOT)


235/40-17 & 275/35-18

-Nitto NT05 - very impressed with these. Did a 1:58.9 at Buttonwillow with them.
-Falken Azenis RT-615K

-Maxxis Victra RC-1 (Track & Competition DOT)
-BFGoodrich G-Force R1
-Nitto NT01

 

[solidol]

Can anyone comment on the road noise difference between the ZII and the AD08Rs? I have the Z1s now and they're noisy on the fwy (not awful, but noticeably louder than the Azenis 615K and Federal RSR)

I drove these back to back and found almost brand new ZII to be quieter than mid worn AD08. Overall ZII is not noisy especially considering how sticky it is.

 

[BATMANs]

285/35r18

 

[RYU]

Going to run 235/40r17 & 275/35r18 Nitto NT-05s at Buttonwillow on 2/1. With inspiration from Billy's last run on these tires I hope to break 2:05!

My front 235s are 3yrs old and been sitting in the sun under a tarp. I hope they're not completely dry rotted.

 

[stuntman]

Going to run 235/40r17 & 275/35r18 Nitto NT-05s at Buttonwillow on 2/1. With inspiration from Billy's last run on these tires I hope to break 2:05!

My front 235s are 3yrs old and been sitting in the sun under a tarp. I hope they're not completely dry rotted.

If they are, your car won't be as oversteery -which is good.

 

[Blackhorse06]

What are the advantages of running a 235 front? Would this be more for track days? I like the idea of a larger contact patch but would the car suffer in daily driving?

 

[Valkyrie Pilot]

Yeah and what about 225 front? There is a 1998 NSX on Craigs List Sacramento that has: "Yoka Hama" racing tires, advan a048 225/45/16 in front and 255/40/17 in rear, 1inch wheel spacers on stock '98 wheels.

Couple of questions on this:

1) Why doesn't anybody talk about these tires, especially for track use and
2) Why is 225 not more common? I talked to the seller and he swears that these tires do not rub. Is that possible?

Here is the link to his car listing: http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/4294736330.html

BTW I have the Advan AD08Rs on stock 2000 wheels and they are amazing. Grippy and very predictable.

 

[stuntman]

What are the advantages of running a 235 front? Would this be more for track days? I like the idea of a larger contact patch but would the car suffer in daily driving?

Wider contact patch is more stable in cornering and better on track than a 215. For most people a 215 would probably be the better choice. 235s are fine for DD if you remove your fender liners (or replace them with something i'm working on), and are ok with tire rubbing at full lock.

Yeah and what about 225 front? There is a 1998 NSX on Craigs List Sacramento that has: "Yoka Hama" racing tires, advan a048 225/45/16 in front and 255/40/17 in rear, 1inch wheel spacers on stock '98 wheels.

Couple of questions on this:

1) Why doesn't anybody talk about these tires, especially for track use and
2) Why is 225 not more common? I talked to the seller and he swears that these tires do not rub. Is that possible?

Here is the link to his car listing: http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/4294736330.html

BTW I have the Advan AD08Rs on stock 2000 wheels and they are amazing. Grippy and very predictable.

1 - A048s are on of the oldest R-compounds out there. Their 'round' profile is great for agility but in an already agile NSX, they can be less stable than an RA1 or NT01.
2 - I think 225/45-16's are common for a 16" application. I wouldn't doubt that they don't rub.

Since the AD08R is suppose to be a couple seconds faster around Tskuba than the AD08 and since the AD08 was only a few seconds off the A048, the AD08R should be pretty close in speed to the A048.

 

[nsxtasy]

Can anyone comment on the road noise difference between the ZII and the AD08Rs?

The Tire Rack did a side-by-side test that included both tires (click here). And they always start with new tires so there are no differences due to tread depth (which is important, since most tires get much louder as they wear). The AD08R was rated better for noise comfort.

That being said, if you're really worried about noise, then you may be better off not buying either of these tires (or any other "extreme performance" tires).

What are the advantages of running a 235 front? Would this be more for track days? I like the idea of a larger contact patch

Wider tires do not have larger contact patches. The shape of the contact patch is different (wider side to side and narrower front to back), but the size of the contact patch is the same. For example, if you have a 3000-pound NSX with 40 percent of the weight on the front tires, and the front tires are inflated to 30 pounds per square inch, the size of each front contact patch is 20 square inches, regardless of whether the tires are 235 mm or 195 mm wide.

 

[jwmelvin]

. . . the size of the contact patch is the same.

That assumes that the tire is a flexible membrane with no stiffness. While I do not know one way or the other, it seems like sidewall stiffness likely plays a significant factor and that at relatively lower pressures, proportionally more weight is carried by the sidewall. This would increase the loading under the sidewall and effectively decrease the size of the contact patch compared to what you would predict using your (pressure * area = force) balance.

Are you contending that the contact patch does not extend to the edge of the tire?

 

[Onsoku]

Good info: http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorhe...ought-you-knew-points-of-contact-tire-patches

 

[Blackhorse06]

Does anyone have the Dunlop ZII's on 17/18 Advan RSII's. I am curious to the amount of "pull/Stretch" on the sidewall. I am looking for a tire that will sit as flush as possible on the 17x8 and 18x10's.

 

[jwmelvin]

Good info: http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorhe...ought-you-knew-points-of-contact-tire-patches

I appreciate the link but I wouldn't say it's good info at all. Nearly every image of a contact patch that I have seen shows a patch with straight sides; in other words, the width of the tire limits the width of the patch. This indicates that the vertical stiffness of the sidewall plays a role in the pressure under the contact patch and a simple air-pressure-based approximation is not accurate. Look at Figure 4 on this page.

But of course, one image does not prove a point and I think that the truth is somewhere between the extremes. I agree with Ken to the extent that the majority of weight carried by a contact patch is likely dominated by its compliant center section, which means that changing the tire size will not change the contact patch with a direct relationship to the size of the change in tire size. I just want to point out that it is entirely unlikely that the patch only changes in shape; in fact, there is good reason to suspect that the patch does change in size too. When increasing the width of a tire, I would expect the patch area to increase to a certain degree because a smaller fraction of the load will be carried by the sidewall.

Edit: I noticed another statement in your linked article that raises a question with me. It reads, "If other vehicular factors remain constant, increasing a tire’s overall circumference is the only way to enlarge the contact patch." But if the assumptions regarding force balance made earlier in the article are true, then how is increasing circumference any different than increasing width? In fact, for an infinitely compliant tire as suggested by the simple p*A=F balance, nothing you can do to the shape of the tire makes a difference to the size of the contact patch for a given pressure.

 

[Onsoku]

I appreciate the link but I wouldn't say it's good info at all. Nearly every image of a contact patch that I have seen shows a patch with straight sides; in other words, the width of the tire limits the width of the patch. This indicates that the vertical stiffness of the sidewall plays a role in the pressure under the contact patch and a simple air-pressure-based approximation is not accurate. Look at Figure 4 on this page.

But of course, one image does not prove a point and I think that the truth is somewhere between the extremes. I agree with Ken to the extent that the majority of weight carried by a contact patch is likely dominated by its compliant center section, which means that changing the tire size will not change the contact patch with a direct relationship to the size of the change in tire size. I just want to point out that it is entirely unlikely that the patch only changes in shape; in fact, there is good reason to suspect that the patch does change in size too. When increasing the width of a tire, I would expect the patch area to increase to a certain degree because a smaller fraction of the load will be carried by the sidewall.

Edit: I noticed another statement in your linked article that raises a question with me. It reads, "If other vehicular factors remain constant, increasing a tire’s overall circumference is the only way to enlarge the contact patch." But if the assumptions regarding force balance made earlier in the article are true, then how is increasing circumference any different than increasing width? In fact, for an infinitely compliant tire as suggested by the simple p*A=F balance, nothing you can do to the shape of the tire makes a difference to the size of the contact patch for a given pressure.

I agree, but maybe this short example is better?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqlvbAmROPY

 

[jwmelvin]

I agree, but maybe this short example is better?

I don't understand that video to address this issue at all. But in any event I suspect this discussion is too far off topic for this thread. I'm happy to leave it at the point that wider tires don't make the contact patch bigger as much as one might expect. So long as we don't say the patch area is fixed for a given pressure. That is only true in certain limited circumstances that I doubt apply here.

Edit:
Just to beat a dead horse, check out this page, which analyzes data from a tire manufacturer's test. The conclusion? Tires != balloons.

 

[nsxtasy]

That assumes that the tire is a flexible membrane with no stiffness.

Stiffness doesn't make any significant difference.

The Tire Rack actually did an experiment, measuring the size of the contact patch for different size tires on the same car with the same inflation. They found that the differences in the size of the contact patches were less than their measurement error (which was around 2 percent).

 

[stuntman]

At the end of the day, a wider tire allows you to run slightly lower tire pressure and usually generates more cornering grip on the track. If you don't track your car, going to a wider 235 might not be the way to go unless limited by tire choices.

 

[bngl3rt]

Let's say I want to copy RYU and run 235/40r17 & 275/35r18 Nitto NT-05s and clear stock 96 brakes - what wheels (sizes) should I buy? 17x7.5 and 18x9.5, for weight? And will the TCS mind on the way to the track? (obviously it gets turned off once ON the track)

 

[stuntman]

Let's say I want to copy RYU and run 235/40r17 & 275/35r18 Nitto NT-05s and clear stock 96 brakes - what wheels (sizes) should I buy? 17x7.5 and 18x9.5, for weight? And will the TCS mind on the way to the track? (obviously it gets turned off once ON the track)

17x8 & 18x9.5 to 18x10. Post 107