This is truly the most disturbing thing I have ever heard

[huckster]

And that is where we differ.

Your argument is that the 'end justifies the means', and also that killing until compliance is actually an effective method of warfare.

We are not fighting an organized opposing army here. This is guerrilla warfare at its worst. The beheading is the most horrible example of what i'm talking about.

If our collective attitudes degenerate into 'kill all the Iraquis and let God sort them out', then we've become that which we claim to despise. No different. If we loose sight of the core values of good vs evil, then we are the same as the terrorists. As misguided as we think the terrorists are, they are convinced that they are right to 'win at any cost', and fight using any methods including abductions and beheadings, suicide bombings, et cetera. Your attitude of killing all Iraquis until they quit, or nuking them all, is fundamentally identical.

 

[nd4spd]

It's awfully easy for you to sit in the cozy safety of Florida, and make sweeping generalizations about what 50% to 90% of an entire religion is thinking. Is it possible that these decent Muslims are scared shitless of these certifiable nuts? They don't live in the USA, where you can report someone to the cops if they threaten you, and you can get a restraining order on them, and get them put in jail.

Now put yourself in Baghdad. You're Joe Schmoe who has never harmed anyone, and you just want to have some freedom, and a good life for your family. You are putting yourself and your family at risk if you speak out against guys who obviously have no qualms about murdering people. Are you going to go to the cops? Hell, no, they're as helpless as you.

This reminds of a poem called First they came...

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

- by Rev. Martin Niemöller, 1945

As Accomplice said above, If "decent Muslims" don't keep these fanatics in check, who will?

[editted for typos]

 

[steveny]

And that is where we differ.

Your argument is that the 'end justifies the means', and also that killing until compliance is actually an effective method of warfare.

We are not fighting an organized opposing army here. This is guerrilla warfare at its worst. The beheading is the most horrible example of what i'm talking about.

If our collective attitudes degenerate into 'kill all the Iraquis and let God sort them out', then we've become that which we claim to despise. No different. If we loose sight of the core values of good vs evil, then we are the same as the terrorists. As misguided as we think the terrorists are, they are convinced that they are right to 'win at any cost', and fight using any methods including abductions and beheadings, suicide bombings, et cetera. Your attitude of killing all Iraquis until they quit, or nuking them all, is fundamentally identical.

You have to fight fire with fire. I would not show up at a gun fight with a knife.

 

[SCS2k]

Wow! Some of you people really scare me.

 

[steveny]

This reminds of of a poem called First the came...



As Accomplice said above, If "decent Muslims" don't keep these fanatics in check, who will?

We will. We will pay in dollars and American lives.

I thought we learned something from Vietnam. We can not shove our opinions down other peoples throats and expect them to swallow. They believe what they believe and will fight to the death for it and we are the same way. War is about who is left standing not about who is right or wrong because everybody in their mind is right.
If we allow every bleeding heart to second guess our military's decisions we are in big trouble AGAIN. The time to worry about who we offend is after the objective is reached not during. Even the smallest detail about the alleged prisoner abuse should have been withheld until after compliance was achieved.

 

[tucsonsx]

Like so many of our leaders in Washington I spent the Viet Nam war here at home so I don't feel qualified to comment on war. I would however be curious to know what combat experience the "nukem" crowd on this forum has that makes them expert enough to have all the answers.

 

[nd4spd]

We will. We will pay in dollars and American lives.

Obviously, that's the case unfortunately. I guess my point was I would like to see people in the Middle East take more of a role in containing these extremists.

 

[steveny]

Obviously, that's the case unfortunately. I guess my point was I would like to see people in the Middle East take more of a role in containing these extremists.

My point was, the people in the middle east are not concerned about what we perceive as a problem. It is no problem to them, there is nothing for them to be involved in. We have stuck our nose in their business. If we want to make changes to their lives paying for it is up to us to do and pay to maintain it for 100-200 years until it becomes accepted.

 

[tucsonsx]

My point was, the people in the middle east are not concerned about what we perceive as a problem. It is no problem to them, there is nothing for them to be involved in. We have stuck our nose in their business. If we want to make changes to their lives paying for it is up to us to do and pay to maintain it for 100-200 years until it becomes accepted.

This sure makes sense to me - I know that I'd certainly be upset to see Iraqi tanks on my street and have Iraqi troops taking orders from Baghdad telling me what to do. Thankfully I doubt the American taxpayer has the stomach for too much more of our occupation of foreign country.

 

[huckster]

Your wits are your weapon---knives and guns are just potential tools.

 

[ajnsx]

Dude ligthen up I didn't mean for it to be serious..... some of you guys just need to step back and take a breath.

Dude i'm one of the most light hearted people on this board, check my posts, but saying somthing like nuke 'em all is irresponsible. It is a serious issue for those that have lost loved ones.

If there were ( i think there are) muslims reading your posts would they have read it as a joke? Pop down to a predominately African American neighbourhood and make a racist joke and see the reponse. I'm sure you didn't mean it but you don't know who is reading eh? Be mindful of what you say!

Another subject,
I saw on the Japanese news wednesday footage of an American female soldier, saying she shot two prisoners who were rowdy and she didn't care if they died, because then she would have "two less to worry about" amongst other things, she threw stones at them, declared "it was so fun"and something do with snakes but i missed it. I was dumbfounded

 

[jlindy]

This sure makes sense to me - I know that I'd certainly be upset to see Iraqi tanks on my street and have Iraqi troops taking orders from Baghdad telling me what to do. Thankfully I doubt the American taxpayer has the stomach for too much more of our occupation of foreign country.

Why is it that we are the only ones over there helping? You would think that some of the countries that were against taking down the regime, would at least be more accepting of helping rebuild the country. We need a more global approach instead of the Middle East thinking we are trying to Americanize.

 

[jlindy]

Another subject,
I saw on the Japanese news wednesday footage of an American female soldier, saying she shot two prisoners who were rowdy and she didn't care if they died, because then she would have "two less to worry about" amongst other things, she threw stones at them, declared "it was so fun"and something do with snakes but i missed it. I was dumbfounded

These people need to be prosecuted, sentenced, and jailed by the American legal system just like they would over here. Even POW's should have rights. It seems hypocritical for anyone to take down regime for being inhumane, but then turn around and treat people in a similar manner. I have got to believe these are just isolated incidents. That is not why we went over there and I hope these practices are the extreme minority. Regardless, we need to make an example of these people to make sure our soldiers know what is acceptable and why we went there in the first place.

 

[steveny]

These people need to be prosecuted, sentenced, and jailed by the American legal system just like they would over here. Even POW's should have rights. It seems hypocritical for anyone to take down regime for being inhumane, but then turn around and treat people in a similar manner. I have got to believe these are just isolated incidents. That is not why we went over there and I hope these practices are the extreme minority. Regardless, we need to make an example of these people to make sure our soldiers know what is acceptable and why we went there in the first place.

If you think the military trains soldiers to think for themselves your nuts. Soldiers are trained to take orders and act without questioning the orders.

 

[ajnsx]

If you think the military trains soldiers to think for themselves your nuts

Some of these soldiers seem incapable of thinking, but yeah following orders is what its about i guess. Otherwise it would be think for myself? hmmm i'm outta here........

 

[Spencer]

From this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...s_nm/iraq_usa_beheading_family_dc_7&printer=1


Some additional quotes from Nick Berg's father:

"My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. This administration did this," Berg said in an interview with radio station KYW-AM.

Well, here we go again (see my previous post); the elder Mr. Berg is blaming the administration for "killing" his son. (His son who was in Iraq, unarmed and alone, after being told to go home, and offered a flight out of there). What a complete and utter revisionist jackass.

Berg described the Patriot Act as a "coup d'etat." He added: "It's not the same America I grew up in."

Yes, that' s right. It's different than what I experienced growing up, also…it happened to change a little while ago…golly gee, I think the date of the change was September, 11th.

"I am sure that he only saw the good in his captors until the last second of his life," Berg said. "They did not know what they were doing. They killed their best friend."

What complete naive trash…no wonder this idiot's son was traipsing through Iraq like he was on vacation in Tuscany. I guess the acorn doesn't fall very far from the tree…

Like I said before, it's too bad his son (or anyone's son for that matter) was killed, but this guy is an idiot.

 

[Accomplice]

My point was that despicable things happen in this country also. Can we infer that because they continue to happen that the majority of the population supports the few deranged a-holes?

Yes, I would do everything in my power to stop something like this, but we live in a very different environment here. I can call the cops. Or I can try to stop them myself, knowing that it is unlikely that they will come after me and my family later.

Completely different set of circumstances in a place like Iraq. They don't have the same level of security that we do. Their cops are running scared, because they don't have control of the country. We're talking about a country that is in a state of chaos, after having been ruled with an iron fist for 20 some years.

You talk real tough while living in an environment that allows you to run your mouth without fear of reprisal. I'd love to see how tough you would be when thrown into Iraq.

They need not fear reprisal if its indeed only a small % of them that are bad. The good majority (if there really is such a thing) needs to arm itself to whatever degree is required to 1. crush the nutty portion of their society and 2. Remain secure after having instituted a policy of zero tolerence on the nuts. You keep saying how I talk tough, etc. Its not at all about being a tough guy. Its about having the conviction to simply do the right thing in any circumstance, no matter how daunting a task that may appear. It may be risky for the humane portions of their populace to stand up and kick the nads of the insane ones but it must be done to spare the entire bunch of them the harsh consequences due to the nutty few.

 

[SCS2k]

They need not fear reprisal if its indeed only a small % of them that are bad. The good majority (if there really is such a thing) needs to arm itself to whatever degree is required to 1. crush the nutty portion of their society and 2. Remain secure after having instituted a policy of zero tolerence on the nuts. You keep saying how I talk tough, etc. Its not at all about being a tough guy. Its about having the conviction to simply do the right thing in any circumstance, no matter how daunting a task that may appear. It may be risky for the humane portions of their populace to stand up and kick the nads of the insane ones but it must be done to spare the entire bunch of them the harsh consequences due to the nutty few.

Who gets to decide who are the nutty few? Based on some posts in this thread, some may think it's you. Does that mean he or she is then obligated to "kick your nads"? "Nutty few" is a matter of perspective in many cases.

Be careful of intolerance, or you may find yourself on the receiving end of it.

 

[naaman]

Hey, I'm Muslim and I just have the following to say


By the teachings of Islam given by the prophet Mohammad himself, here are a few rules of war that all Muslims are obliged to follow or else:


1- no harm should come to any child, female, or old people unless they come to kill someone
2- in the midst of a war, if an opponent is not carrying a weapon and does not show any hostile content, then killing him would be a crime
3- If someone shows out right that he means no harm than no harm can be carried upon him even if it is well known that he is no friend (a Spy).

I can go on all day explaining how complex, well made and well architecture the Islamic religion is and how it always aims at idealism. Put in simple words, anything you can tell is good with half a brain is already claimed in the Islamic religion, it is that good

I wasn't born into the religion I follow right now, hell my own father and mother don't know my religion because I never told them. I followed this religion because I read about it and I loved it. It was completely synchronized with my idealist nature. And I also hated the religion at first because of what I saw from extremists. I didn't like it until I ignored their existence and read about the real Islam.



I was upset about the 911insident. What upset me the most is that they claimed that it was of Islamic justice and that god wanted it that way! And that is absolute bullhit, of all the text I read about Islam, all of it was against such acts of crime.

So my final word is: Osama bin laden is not Islam, Iraqi actions are not Islam, and 911 was not Islam. Islam is in a book; go read it, that is Islam if you want to judge it the right way, not the wrong way ( aka the media)

This is an interesting post. The problem, however, is that people seem to only focus on the bad acts of a few, rather than all the good acts of the many. Christianity suffers the same fate. A few greedy "preachers" get you to give them all your money and they buy Rolls Royces, and the rest of the world says "I don't want to be of such and such religion because it's full of hypocrites."

Unfortunately, people "like" to focus on the negative.

 

[Accomplice]

Who gets to decide who are the nutty few? Based on some posts in this thread, some may think it's you. Does that mean he or she is then obligated to "kick your nads"? "Nutty few" is a matter of perspective in many cases.

Be careful of intolerance, or you may find yourself on the receiving end of it.

So now you're not even sure if the worst of them are even in the wrong because none of us are capable of being objective judges of their madness? I guess we should just sit back and let them do to us and their own people whatever they want because we're not fit to judge these horrific acts as wrong. To read my posts and see them as 'nutty' is simply to fail to comprehend the scale of the threat that radical Islam represents. I hope that that minority is correct and we're all just misunderstanding these poor oppressed people.

Edit: for those of you not capable of spotting the 'nutty few' in a crowd, its the guys stabbing the necks of unarmed, bound non-combat personnel, not the guys calling the neck stabers the 'nutty few'. All clear now?

 

[ajnsx]

All in all its not the most disturbing i've heard, my ex girlfriends parents escaping the khmer rouge would rate up there though.

Farmers being chopped up in front of their families in south Africa, easy to look the other way when its not your country involved, thats part of the problem too.

Why is it that we are the only ones over there helping?

My government sent people to help, so did the Japanese SDF.
Probably because they're worried about life without American umbrella protection.

 

[Accomplice]

Found this online, not sure of its accuracy but it sounds like a viable plan...

HOW TO STOP ISLAMIC TERRORISTS...... it worked once in our History...

Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.

Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.

All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.

They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil.

 

[gheba_nsx]

Found this online, not sure of its accuracy but it sounds like a viable plan...

Ehm, how old are you?

 

[Griffen]

Now put yourself in Baghdad. You're Joe Schmoe who has never harmed anyone, and you just want to have some freedom, and a good life for your family. You are putting yourself and your family at risk if you speak out against guys who obviously have no qualms about murdering people. Are you going to go to the cops? Hell, no, they're as helpless as you. Their police stations are getting blown up every day, they're getting picked off in ambushes.
Go to the Americans? Sure, they might even nail a few of the terrorists based on what you tell them. But, then what happens? They aren't putting you in a witness protection program, so back you go to your neighborhood. All it takes is one other nut to find out that you helped the "occupational army", and your son is brutally murdered, your daughter and wife are raped, and you get a bomb stuck up your ass. Gee, I wonder why more decent Muslims don't stand up to these nuts.

Revolution has to start somewhere.. If everyone just sits back and does nothing then the brutality will never stop and change will never occur.

Good people have to have the courage to try....

I dont know how you guys can transfer the acts of some Iraquis to the whole population. The nation is in complete chaos, lacks any sort of organized government, and has been used to brutal sadistic governments when theyve had one. And you expect the reasonable Iraquis to rise up and weed out their own rabid fundamentalist sickos?? When was the last time YOU stood up under similar circumstances

We are there and doing our part... Why are'nt they?

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to stand by and say/do nothing.

Exactly my point....

 

[Accomplice]

Ehm, how old are you?

You doubt my suggestion that it is indeed a viable plan?