This is truly the most disturbing thing I have ever heard
- Thread starter jlindy
- Start date
That's not what I read. From reading reports, the military knew about it in January, not the media. Do you seriously think the media sat on this story until now, just because they didn't have pictures?mdb said:
Part of the stink of this whole situation is that Congress was not briefed until the same day the pictures were published (4 months after the government knew about it). That's part of the reason so many are calling for Rumsfeld's resignation, because there was an attempted coverup, and the media forced the issue out in the open.
Nice job Arab media of putting fuel on the fire, and making this execution a bigger deal than it needs to be.NeSX said:
If they hadn't posted the beheading video, everybody would still be happy (well, except for the family and friends of the civilian, maybe).
Listen to yourself sometime.
January 16, 2004
Release Number: 04-01-43
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
DETAINEE TREATMENT INVESTIGATION
BAGHDAD, Iraq – An investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility. The release of specific information concerning the incidents could hinder the investigation, which is in its early stages. The investigation will be conducted in a thorough and professional manner. The Coalition is committed to treating all persons under its control with dignity, respect and humanity. Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the Commanding General, has reiterated this requirement to all members of CJTF-7.
There are more after that as things progress, but the press knew mid January there had been abuse.
Release Number: 04-01-43
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
DETAINEE TREATMENT INVESTIGATION
BAGHDAD, Iraq – An investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility. The release of specific information concerning the incidents could hinder the investigation, which is in its early stages. The investigation will be conducted in a thorough and professional manner. The Coalition is committed to treating all persons under its control with dignity, respect and humanity. Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the Commanding General, has reiterated this requirement to all members of CJTF-7.
There are more after that as things progress, but the press knew mid January there had been abuse.
OK, so the only thing they were missing were pictures? Or were they missing some details perhaps?mdb said:
Sorry, let me change my statement: The military knew the details, the media did not.
Do you think that if this release had mentioned torture, and given some details of it, that the media would have sat on this story?
Please note specifically The release of specific information concerning the incidents could hinder the investigation.
nkb said:
Big difference between be forced to play naked twister and having your head cut off.
If ANY military or law enforcement agency has to use unsavory tactics to get the job done, then so be it.
I can only imagine the amount of crimes that would have gone unsolved had these tactics not been available for use. Hell people in this country lie to get out of a speeding ticket, does anyone really think a war prisoner will just tell the truth without be preempted.
The difference is, I would hope, we would torture to get the information and then stop. They would get the information and then cut off the prisoners head anyways.
IMO it is time to pull out the troops and drop the big one, start over from scratch, any other country that has a problem with it will get the same treatment.
We need to stop pussy footing around and show we are done putting up with any Bull Shit.
i agree.
We need to stop pussy footing around and show we are done putting up with any Bull Shit.
i agree.
nkb said:
THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GETTING YOUR HEAD CUT OFF WITH A KNIFE, AND BEING FORCED TO POSE NAKED & BEING LEARED AT!
I can't believe you can't see that.
I don't give a rat's ass if the "sensitive arabs" find it so shocking to see themselves standing around naked. Killing someone, an innocent person *brutally*, is not "an eye for an eye." They are flinging their crap at us, and we are just sitting on our hands. I'm with Steveny, let's pull out and make it a sheet of glass.
Torture is torture, of which there are varying degrees. What Saddam did was obviously far more brutal than anything our military was doing, but that doesn't change the fact that we tortured prisoners. And playing naked twister was not the extent of it. I don't know all the details (neither do you, I'm guessing), but there were incidences of having people stand on a box, with a hood over their head, and told they would be electrocuted if they fell off.steveny said:
You do understand that torture takes many different forms, right? It doesn't have to be physical.
As long as it's our side that's doing it, right? Or are you ok with Iraqis or Afghanis doing the same to our troops?steveny said:
So, based on your statement, we should be able to do whatever it takes, up to and including harsh physical torture and murder, right? Or do you draw the line somewhere? How do you decide where to draw the line?
Well, you're on a real slippery slope with that one. How do you know when to stop? What if a little more torture might yield a little more information? Wouldn't you always be wondering, maybe he would have told me more, if I had just used a bigger hammer on his balls. Maybe cutting one of his ears off to show I mean business would have softened him up even more.steveny said:
Here is the part that I think some of you are missing: No matter the circumstances of the torture (maybe the guy being tortured deserved far worse, because he liked to torture little children, I don't know), you are putting your own people (military and civilians) at higher risk. When you ignore the general rules of war, that encourages the other side to do the same.
Autophile said:
There are two types of people. One type will earn your respect and the other type demands it. When you are up against someone who demands your respect, you will never earn their respect.
It is impossible to reason with someone like this. Deadly force has to be used in order for capitulation to occur. This will drag on longer than Vietnam if we don't start smashing heads and demanding respect. Only an idiot plays by the rules in a game where the opponent has no rules.
OK, exactly what I was trying to avoid with my disclaimer in my earlier post. Obviously it didn't work.Autophile said:
First of all, I never said that they were equivalent, please don't put words in my mouth. I understand the difference. I also understand that murder and torture are BOTH crimes. Yes, one is worse than the other, but that doesn't make the lesser one acceptable.
Also, if you are agreeing with Steve, then you agree that the two are not related. The American civilian's murder may very well have happened anyway, regardless of the publishing of the photos. I believe other civilians were murdered and their corpses mutilated long before these torture accusations became public.
Answer me these two questions:
1. Is it acceptable to murder someone?
2. Is it acceptable to physically or mentally abuse someone?
I sure hope your answer is "No" for both.
Unfortunately, it's not so black and white.steveny said:
The problem here is that we are not trying to win a war anymore (that was completed over a year ago). We are trying to restore stability to a country that has some very determined people, who hate our guts, who will do anything to thwart that effort.
The trick is to root out these terrorists, insurgents, whatever you want to call them, WITHOUT turning the entire population against us. By torturing and humiliating prisoners, we are creating thousands of future terrorists among the people that may have been supporting us otherwise. These are lessons that apparently have not been learned from Vietnam.
WHOA!! Some of y'all are sounding a little extreme!!! Im not sure how 'annihilation' is any less atrocious than 'beheading'.
From what i've read/seen, the treatment of pow's was debasing and humiliating--not necessarily 'torture', but i dont pretend to have all the facts on this.
From what i have read/learned regarding interrogation, the use of torture on extremists is generally ineffective. The information gleaned is unreliable, if any 'information' is gained at all. Unexpected humane/kind treatment, however, is the most likely method of unsettling the prisoner's facade and obtaining information. Psychologically, it has the best chance of causing the prisoner to question their commitment. Always better to 'turn' someone than 'torture' them.
And that's just the rational response, without going into all the moral/ethical issues of torture/inhumane treatment.
I think that we should all be concerned that the 'cure' for the disease that was/is saddam/terrorism is being perceived as worse than the disease itself. Stupid incidents such as prisoner mistreatment cant be allowed.
From what i've read/seen, the treatment of pow's was debasing and humiliating--not necessarily 'torture', but i dont pretend to have all the facts on this.
From what i have read/learned regarding interrogation, the use of torture on extremists is generally ineffective. The information gleaned is unreliable, if any 'information' is gained at all. Unexpected humane/kind treatment, however, is the most likely method of unsettling the prisoner's facade and obtaining information. Psychologically, it has the best chance of causing the prisoner to question their commitment. Always better to 'turn' someone than 'torture' them.
And that's just the rational response, without going into all the moral/ethical issues of torture/inhumane treatment.
I think that we should all be concerned that the 'cure' for the disease that was/is saddam/terrorism is being perceived as worse than the disease itself. Stupid incidents such as prisoner mistreatment cant be allowed.
Didn't we already agree that these two aren't related? I'm confused why we are still comparing them.steveny said:
Murder is worse than assault. Physical abuse of your spouse or kid is worse than mental abuse. Does that make any of these crimes acceptable?
those of you arguing that 'the end justifies the means' do understand that this is the same logic used by the terrorists/saddam, dont you???
and Hitler, and pol pot, and everyone else we consider evil.
and Hitler, and pol pot, and everyone else we consider evil.
steveny said:
But given the mainstream American media, you have to wonder sometimes...
nkb said:
If
By torturing and humiliating prisoners, we are creating thousands of future terrorists among the people that may have been supporting us otherwise.
Then instead of
2. physically or mentally abuse someone?
just nip it in the bud and
1. murder them?
A weed is a weed. It is much easier to take care of weeds before they take over your yard.
Here is another example of passiveness on the part of the US and it just keeps coming.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/12/national/main617082.shtml
If China has spies here and we know it WTF are we doing any more business with China for. It is like the neighbors dog that just keeps shitting in your yard and you smile and continue to allow the dog to shit with impunity. I don't know about everyone else but I am tired of being shit upon.
First off, if we drop the big one and start fresh, we will do nothing more than show the world we are no better than the terrorists. What these five individuals did was disgusting, but we can't assume that they represent a majority opinion no more than Iraq should assume all Americans agree with POW torture whether it be mental, physical, or psychological. The one thing nkb said that I agree with is that we need to continue to root out these terrorists without casting judgement upon the entire population. Guilt should be determined by our actions and not our geography.
While the US attempts to root out terrorists, civilian casualties sometimes inadvertently occur, but there is a difference between an unintentional war casualty and a blatant and deliberate attack on the innocent of any nationality to make a point. (911, suicide bombings, just about anything else Al Queda has done) Since they don't even have enough power to overtake a gas station, they have to resort to dirty tactics, preying on the innocent and non military targets. Cowards.
I am glad I am not in pollitics.
While the US attempts to root out terrorists, civilian casualties sometimes inadvertently occur, but there is a difference between an unintentional war casualty and a blatant and deliberate attack on the innocent of any nationality to make a point. (911, suicide bombings, just about anything else Al Queda has done) Since they don't even have enough power to overtake a gas station, they have to resort to dirty tactics, preying on the innocent and non military targets. Cowards.
I am glad I am not in pollitics.
The luxury of freedom makes it easier for these extremists to plan and pull off their evil. Maybe it is time we take more of an egocentric approach and worry more about what is happening within our country and not outside of it. Do we really still need troops over in Iraq to assist with rebuilding the infrastructure? It seems to me that more of our troops have died assisting after the war than during it. We still need to root out the terrorists, but could we just pull out the troops outside of the anti-terrorists missions? 
Steveny,
I think your response is generally oversimplified. There are too many other factors involved with the U.S./China relation that we as the public do not know. If it were as simple as the dog shit on my yard and now I won't do business with him...I'm sure it would have been done already but theres more than meets the eye.
I think your response is generally oversimplified. There are too many other factors involved with the U.S./China relation that we as the public do not know. If it were as simple as the dog shit on my yard and now I won't do business with him...I'm sure it would have been done already but theres more than meets the eye.
Ennesssex said:
Plus, we have spies in every one of our "friendly" nations. Just the cost of doing business with someone who "could" really hurt you if the right person or persons gains control of the government or the masses.
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