Stock market - look up above

Can you guys who are market experts explain this:

http://www.moneynews.com/Outbrain/b...-stock/2012/08/29/id/450265?PROMO_CODE=FE8A-1

Seems like the stock market bubble is about to burst.

Wouldn't pay much attention to that article. What a few billionaires do doesn't matter in the long term. Buffet's track record since the financial crisis is extremely good, but Paulson has lost billions (neither of which makes me think they are necessarily good or bad investors). I have been trimming my positions because the stocks hit my targets. Targets, be it based on share price, earnings level, etc., are based primarily on expectations derived from looking at where the market has been. This is especially true if they were purchased during the financial crisis.

Given the market is making new highs, lots of smart people will be trimming some of their holdings. We don't know what Buffet or Soros were originally thinking when they built these positions.
 
Can you guys who are market experts explain this:
http://www.moneynews.com/Outbrain/b...-stock/2012/08/29/id/450265?PROMO_CODE=FE8A-1
Seems like the stock market bubble is about to burst.

I'm not an expert, but IMO, them selling doesn't mean they're selling to avoid a crash. They could be selling to make better investments, or to capture profits.

I think Buffet would be the first to say he can't time the market.
The more likely thing is he's just re-balancing or looking to buy something outright.
From what I've heard, some people are saying dividend stocks are overpriced.
That could explain Buffet getting out of those stocks.

Paulson getting out of his banks. It depends where he bought. He might be up 500% for what we know. Why not lock it in?

Soros I don't respect and ignore.

Personal example, I think Sprint stock could go straight up for the next decade, but I'm probably going to sell soon(maybe around $7.75 or so?). Lock in my profit in 2013 while also selling a loss in 2013 to make the taxes work out. Then move that money into a rental property.
 
Bump. What are you guys thinking of today? Is anyone investing in Bank of Ireland?
 
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I'm looking at some emerging market etf's......I was going to post something to the effect that with this bull market you gotta be all in for the nearterm.....nothing I can think of will give these kinda 12-15% returns of the market on such low risk equities.
 
I figured someone might get a bit of value out of a quick explanation about what has been going on with TSLA recently. The last time something like this occurred was when Porsche allocated most of VW's float and caused VW to temporarily be the most valuable company on earth due to the subsequent short squeeze. I've never owned TSLA stock but I chased it through the mid $30's before giving up.

TSLA's total outstanding shares are about 115,000,000. The float is about 72,000,000 and average volume is around 3,300,000 shares a day. This is all available on Yahoo! finance although take figures there with a grain of salt. The number of total outstanding shares isn't very useful for trading outside of being able to calculate a live market cap.

The float, however, can be very important. As of the end of last month, a staggering 31,000,000 shares were held short, or almost half of all available shares to trade. On top of that, a back of the envolope calculation suggests it will take at least 20 market days for short sellers to get out without a massive run up of the stock's value through their own purchases to cover their positions. This is an extremely dangerous situation for short sellers.

The mechanics of short selling are very intuitive if you actually watch someone do it; it is exactly like buying a stock just in reverse order. Trying to explain the 'borrowing' and buying back process is more difficult. The bottom line is a short seller loses money as a stock goes up exactly the same way as a 'normal' investor makes money as a stock goes up (that's not coincidence, one is borrowing the shares from another and overall it is a zero sum game). These short sellers must buy the stock to get out. Buying makes the stock go higher which causes more short sellers to hit their pain limit and cover, creating a vicious cycle. They can only buy stock that is offered for sale. Any good news that causes the stock to bounce will inevitably cause a few short sellers to hit their pain limit and cover. Huge afterhours movements magnify this affect as many traders and hedge fund guys are forced by their risk managers to exit the position immediately upon market open.

It is nearly impossible to get live data on the amount of shares held short at any given time but it appears about half the short positions have been covered through today. There is still a lot of potential pain out there. You could easily see the stock jump another 10-25%. Keep in mind the resulting 10-12 bn market cap (it's already 9) is not real; it's a result of illiquidity and a lot of people losing a lot of money. Check the 3 month or 6 month chart of TSLA to see what I am talking about.
 
did'nt the same thing happen to nflx 70-217 in the last 6 mo:rolleyes:
 
did'nt the same thing happen to nflx 70-217 in the last 6 mo:rolleyes:

What are you referring to? The stock tripling in value or the short squeeze element? Netflix had significant short interest ranging from 14-26% give or take over the last year or two. TSLA's, however, has ranged from 49-72% short interest. Many companies double or triple in value over short periods of time but rarely is it a direct consequence of shorts getting this pounded. Netflix makes money and has for a while, TSLA is still in its infancy balance sheet wise.
 
yes I thought the short covering was the reason for nflx strong price.
 
TSLA's total outstanding shares are about 115,000,000. The float is about 72,000,000 and average volume is around 3,300,000 shares a day. This is all available on Yahoo! finance although take figures there with a grain of salt. The number of total outstanding shares isn't very useful for trading outside of being able to calculate a live market cap.

The float, however, can be very important. As of the end of last month, a staggering 31,000,000 shares were held short, or almost half of all available shares to trade.


I'm not saying it's the case at all, but is it legal for someone to buy up shares with the only intention to kick out shorts?

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone have any bets/insight on the Sprint/Clearwire vote on Friday?
I'm debating if I should sell S before or after.
If Clearwire doesn't take Sprints offer, odds are they'll go bankrupts and investors will lose 100%.
Crest Financial are being weird about it though trying to push for a no vote.
I imagine a no vote will cost me money, lol...
 
Good question jbond, it is legal and while in TSLA's case moderately low risk (IMO), that is often not the case. Many companies with high short interest end up going to zero. TSLA's short squeeze has about run its course at this point. I won't know definitively until the end of the month when accurate figures regarding the float/short interest/etc. are posted again.
 
Very interesting activity in the potash 'sector.' POT, AGU, IPI, etc. Belarus and Russia are breaking their cartel due to a complex production dispute. Approximately 60% of all potash production occurs in Canada and the former soviet union and a big chunk of that is within the cartel. I haven't researched the sector since the crisis so have some homework to do this weekend. Several firms' balance sheets are in pretty good shape and POT even pays a 5% yield. I am thinking of scaling in from the low 20's to high 20's in POT but it is a high risk / high reward investment for sure. I need additional diversification so this will serve several purposes. If the dispute ends, POT will go up ~33% over night. Other firms are not nearly as leveraged to potash prices for their earnings and haven't taken significant hits.
 
...so I'm up about 15% for the year....I'm still a bull on the market but I have taken profits to the point where I'm 20% in cash and will see If I can put that back to work in the next 2 months.
 
All I can say is that I like my Nokia, I don't feel like I earned that money since it's was blind luck but I'll still take the profit :).

My plan is to stay away for the next week or 2 and only day trade for the next few months. I will try to find good stocks to buy around mid to late November. Any suggestions?
 
What are you referring to? The stock tripling in value or the short squeeze element? Netflix had significant short interest ranging from 14-26% give or take over the last year or two. TSLA's, however, has ranged from 49-72% short interest. Many companies double or triple in value over short periods of time but rarely is it a direct consequence of shorts getting this pounded. Netflix makes money and has for a while, TSLA is still in its infancy balance sheet wise.

All your posts (in this thread and others) seem very insightful and well thought out. Do you mind sharing where you learned all this from? Formal education, or personal edification? Feel free to PM me. :)

I'm a newbie when it comes to investing, and it just seems like I am missing so much.
 
All I can say is that I like my Nokia, I don't feel like I earned that money since it's was blind luck but I'll still take the profit :).

My plan is to stay away for the next week or 2 and only day trade for the next few months. I will try to find good stocks to buy around mid to late November. Any suggestions?

I'm watching SALE......
 
All your posts (in this thread and others) seem very insightful and well thought out. Do you mind sharing where you learned all this from? Formal education, or personal edification? Feel free to PM me. :)

I'm a newbie when it comes to investing, and it just seems like I am missing so much.

At the start my last semester at UT Austin (studying economics and mandarin) I became a full time securities trader for a small firm here in Austin (Kershner Trading Group). I traded about 6 million shares on the NYSE (lesser amounts on the other exchanges) over a period of two years before moving on to Assent LLC (now Greypoint I believe) and trading there another couple years. KTG is structured like a hedge fund so they provide capital and take ~50% of your profits (assuming you make any). I didn't trade "client" money of any type. There I received what was probably the most intense crash course in the real world of finance/financial markets that is possible. I traded everything but focused primarily on ill-liquid, more obscure securities like Berkshire Hathaway; back then even the B shares were $2k each and traded in lots of 10. I can go into more detail but I learned the breadth of the markets, how they interact, and what true risk management consists of. I did blackbox/algorithm trading as well but it was probably 5% of my revenue. My career started 6-9 months prior to the financial crisis blowing up so I traded throughout the entire ordeal.

At Assent you provide your own capital and it's a different environment since it's only (at least somewhat successful) professionals. They of course provide leverage which is based on your track record and style as well as a plethora of technology. After the market recovered volumes declined, I got bored, and ended up in my current position of a "financial adviser to financial advisers" if that makes sense. I very rarely talk to end clients. It's about 33% investment advice, 33% "operational" advice (i.e. you tell me what you want and I connect the dots), and 33% technology as my team maintains the firm's premiere (i.e. most expensive) investment platform with the help of the company out of Denver that developed the chassis behind it so to speak. I've been at my current position for 3 years next month.

I have a passion for the markets and dealing with risk and uncertainty so I read 1-2 hours of articles daily on seekingalpha etc. Many of my friends are/were securities traders as well so we talk about this stuff all the time. I've had my own equities portfolio I handled 100% on my own since I was 18 so I can relate to the home gamer's problems as well as anyone.
 
Exited my fairly boring swiss franc position today and remembered this post:

Not at all pal, but don't penny me!

These are a good portion of them and easily purchased with any broker; I changed the prices slightly today a few minutes ago. I have some others that are hedges I don't want to put here because they are not something I want people 'copying.' FXF is similar in nature to those.

Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day FXF Buy XVA7D0D20120605 Limit $102.06 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:15 PM Regular (just exited this at $110.xx)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day XOM Buy XSC907320120605 Limit $61.06 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:13 PM Regular (never got hit, bid is at $80 now)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day NUV Buy XLAB6A820120605 Limit $9.06 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:11 PM Regular (flat on this trade after good gains, had a year of 5% interest)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day NXP Buy XUA119720120605 Limit $13.14 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:09 PM Regular (flat on this trade after good gains, had a year of 5% interest)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day XOM Buy XID572A20120605 Limit $70.06 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:08 PM Regular (never got hit)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day CVX Buy XEDC46120120605 Limit $80.06 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:07 PM Regular (never got hit, moved it to $102.50 which it hit in mid nov 2012)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day ATVI Sell XBDBADF20120605 Limit $15.88 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:07 PM Regular (exited this a few months ago in the 16's, good trade from the 11-12$ level, left a dollar on the table though)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day TGP Buy XXD524720120605 Limit $31.55 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:06 PM Regular (never got hit, still trying to get into this at a good price, bid at $36.05 now)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day WFCpJ Buy XKA14E220120605 Limit $26.06 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:06 PM Regular (never got hit, not interested in this due to interest rate environment and a couple other factors)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day WFM Buy XBDBADE20120605 Limit $40.26 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:05 PM Regular (split this into more tranches, only got hit on the 1st tranch at $42.50, still long)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day AMZN Buy XKD8C3020120605 Limit $110.26 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:04 PM Regular (never got hit, even while trying to chase it)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day GSTpA Buy XSB141520120605 Limit $18.81 GTC None 6/5/2012 7:04 PM Regular (still long, 9% yield and it's at ~$24 now)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day F Buy XTA877420120605 Limit $8.11 GTC None 6/5/2012 6:58 PM Regular (this one hurts a little as I wasn't off by much, only got down to $9 but now it is ~18$. My current bid is 13.05$)
Modify Cancel Queued: Next Trading Day FpA Buy XWBD0E620120605 Limit $25.29 GTC None 6/5/2012 6:57 PM Regular (never got hit, ford ended up calling these shares anyways because the yield was so good)


Time flies!
 
Good Morning Gentlemen, I had to call in "sick" to my own office today so I am spending the day reviewing my financials.

I still don't understand why the market is up 18.8~ YTD. The economy is slowly recovering, Bernake is leaving(though Yellen seems to be quite competent), debt is high, Bipartisanship is still ongoing yet somehow the market keeps going up. It seems that 16,000 is the magical number. The DOW gets close to it and then drops. My last link was "blown off" but I still have grave concerns about the market doing so well without significant positive economic markers. What do you guys think?

P.S. I am gauging what you guys are thinking just to get an idea. I am a Doctor not a investment guru. I do have a financial planner, my F-I-L is a NYL agent but I like to invest on my own too. I just don't wanna get caught in another downward spiral.

Ritesh - who wishes he was working today since that is my best financial plan ;-)
 
^^^ Not bad sahtt!

I still don't understand why the market is up 18.8~ YTD

I'm not a investing guru either, I'm a network engineer. I just think economics is interesting.
I think markets are up because of QE. I think that's the sole reason.
If you plot the US Dollar(as measured against a REAL currency, not a basket of junk(AKA USD measure)) vs the Dow, you'll see an almost 100% correlation.

I'm curious what everyone thinks 2014 and 2015 look like.
One the one hand, the market is at it's last nominal peak, P/E is high by historic standards(ignoring the 90s).
On the other hand, it seems QE has at least another year left and it seems like a lot of people have money on the sidelines?
 
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.lol ..I'm also a doc who is too niave in the world of economics to fully understand "what i don't know"....but i think the big money goes where it will recieve the best ror ...and so far where else can you get over 20%....when does that stop..maybe when interrest rates climb bonds start looking good and gold gets hopping.....:redface:...i do know its easy to look like a hero in a bull market.....the real heros are those that can sustain 10% gains in a bear market.
 
Good Morning Gentlemen, I had to call in "sick" to my own office today so I am spending the day reviewing my financials.

I still don't understand why the market is up 18.8~ YTD. The economy is slowly recovering, Bernake is leaving(though Yellen seems to be quite competent), debt is high, Bipartisanship is still ongoing yet somehow the market keeps going up. It seems that 16,000 is the magical number. The DOW gets close to it and then drops. My last link was "blown off" but I still have grave concerns about the market doing so well without significant positive economic markers. What do you guys think?

P.S. I am gauging what you guys are thinking just to get an idea. I am a Doctor not a investment guru. I do have a financial planner, my F-I-L is a NYL agent but I like to invest on my own too. I just don't wanna get caught in another downward spiral.

Ritesh - who wishes he was working today since that is my best financial plan ;-)


Being humble is always a good thing but don't discount yourself too much; being smart while honest about your own knowledge/skills is more important than being a 'guru' IMO.

Remember what the stock market is fundamentally. It's not about the fed, the president, or what congress is yelling about. It's not about europe, it's not about the U.S. dollar, it's not about psychology - it's about earnings of the companies listed on whatever index you are referencing, in this case the DJIA. Is XOM, AAPL, GE, etc. making money or losing money? Record earnings or terrible earnings?

The caveat to that is the price people are willing to pay for those earnings - this is where the P/E ratio comes into to play. The good thing is that over the long term, as long as a company continues to make money, eventually you'll be rewarded as a stock holder. The timing* of when you make the investment, however, has a massive affect on your returns; i.e. a little up or a double, or a little down or a 50% loss. This is why people with excellent trading skills and mediocre investment skills will probably end up making about the same as someone with excellent investment skills but mediocre trading skills. The very few who understand both are only limited in the amount of money they can accumulate only by the risk they are willing to take. And trust me, going to sleep at night with substantial risk (note this not necessarily reckless or illogical risk), no matter your level of confidence (which will never be "1"), is a heavy price to pay that most people cannot relate to.

Right now earnings are quite good though there are some bad spots. The problem is the market is, at best, "fairly" valued. The ability for P/E ratio expansion (people paying more for the same dollar in earnings) to move the market even higher is dwindling. A lot of the last 2-4k of movement in the DOW is due to P/E expansion, not earnings. That's not to say the market cannot trade flat for many years to come.

I rotate out of securities that rely on people paying more for the stock and into those that pay shareholders through cash distributions - think KMP, or arguably AAPL given its proposed share buy back and 2-3% yield (I'm long both).

Treasury yields are also having a material impact. As bond yields lower (which they have significantly despite the hoopla you hear on CNBC) stocks become a better relative value and the government's financial integrity improves. You can figure out what happens when bond yields spike.
 
This is why I say the stock market is a reflection only of the value of the dollar.
The correlation has broken down some in the last year or so. It used to track almost 100%
Beginners mind though, maybe I'm wrong....
The correlation between 2006 and 2011 is crazy though...
Dollar goes up, stock market goes down. Dollar goes down(printing), stock market goes up.

spygsy.jpg
 
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This is why I say the stock market is a reflection only of the value of the dollar.
The correlation has broken down some in the last year or so. It used to track almost 100%
Beginners mind though, maybe I'm wrong....
The correlation between 2006 and 2011 is crazy though...
Dollar goes up, stock market goes down. Dollar goes down(printing), stock market goes up.

spygsy.jpg

Sort of, you could make a similar argument about a lot of things (GDP, earnings of large corporations, employment etc.). If it doesn't give any predictive value though it is not particularly useful. It makes sense the strength of the dollar corresponds with the strength of the overall economy as reflected in the value of our aggregate stock markets. You could also make the argument that a dollar decline results in higher stock market prices because those prices are dollar denominated just like crude oil is. The dollar also follows interest rates which over the time period you specified were manipulated with a primary objective being stabilization (and let's be honest, massive increase) of domestic financial markets.

Crude does the same thing sometimes; it'll track the damn dollar almost perfectly over long periods of time since it is denominated in USD. Crude also tracks the S&P quite well over certain long periods of time as well. The key is managing to make even $1 off all these backward looking correlations. I think it's more useful as a hedging tool.
 
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Sahtt, I always love your insightful posts and you've answered my of my dumb questions in the past. Let me ask something a bit more open ended.

Let's say you have an extremely smart guy, with limited funds, $5-10K, who is willing to put in say 20 hours a week learning on his own, is there any reasonable expectation that this person could eventually turn this $$$ into a large pile of cash or would is it more likely just be a hobby/supplemental income?

I have very little spare time and what I do have I tend to do tech projects on the side for a few extra bucks. I'm getting old and SteveNY and I were just chatting about how when you have young kids you really start to think about the best use of the time you have. I will never be wealthy working for somebody else. I have gone through a half dozen startups, working 60-80 hour weeks and none have been successful. I'm tired of hoping and I need to take my and my family's future into my own hands. I'm trying to come up with a plan as to where I can invest my time in learning so as to have the largest ROI. In your opinion is trading a candidate for high ROI if you invest the time in learning how it all works, but don't have access to the funds and tools the pros have at their disposal?
 
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