Oil change nightmare?

[comquat1]

If I'm out shopping for an NSX today and I had to choose between a rebuilt 95 motor or a reinstalled used 91 from a car I don't know the history, I'm buying the rebuild (assuming it's from someone like Basch or Comptech). I'd use this as an opportunity to get a comptech supercharger put on as well.

The only time I'd buy a transplant was if it was an earlier model with a newer 3.2 liter inside with a six speed.

 

[nsxtasy]

Ken, you say this because you know better than the average Joe Schmo out there looking for his first NSX. To the average guy out there, no documentation will ever convince him that an older engine in a newer car is by all means the same as if this car had an engine of the same year and expect him to pay the same $$$ for these reasons.

Except that the average guy out buys the average NSX out there. That means that when it comes time to sell this car, it might be traded in to a dealer or sold to a private party who isn't as finicky as some folks on NSXprime. Dealers sell cars all the time without a full history and documentation of what has happened to it throughout its life. And it will be competing in the marketplace against cars for sale by dealers without complete service history, etc. That's why finicky buyers insist on a pre-purchase inspection. And the simple fact is, if this car has a good '91 engine, even if the potential buyer is finicky, the car will successfully PASS a pre-purchase inspection showing that the engine is good. Whether it's sold to a finicky buyer, or to a dealer on trade-in, the fact that the engine isn't original DOESN'T AFFECT THE MARKET VALUE. You can argue all day long that THIS BUYER or THAT BUYER (or YOU) wouldn't pay the same market value for it, but many other buyers wouldn't care. And again, it only takes one.

There are things that can happen to a car that affect the market value. Some affect it to a great degree, some affect it to a small degree, and some affect it not at all. And, as mentioned above, that effect can vary depending on how new and how low mileage and how pristine the car is. Replacing the engine on a '95 with average miles won't affect the market value. Someone who wants a '95 with the original '95 engine will be willing to buy it with the '91 engine, assuming that it's priced correctly for the condition of the entire car. Maybe it won't be Doug, and will be someone else, but it's not going to matter.

 

[comquat1]

Maybe it won't be Doug, and will be someone else, but it's not going to matter.

Won't be Doug cuz he's got his and isn't planning on changing anytime soon! :biggrin:

But Ken, I do see what you are saying about an average miler nsx and it's value, your argument holds water there. I was looking at it from a picky buyers perspective, who, if they're picky, won't be looking at a higher mileage car.

 

[NSXTech]

Stiddy, All- You can speculate all day what a potential buyer MIGHT say, or what you WOULD say. I can tell you what they DO say because we do more buyers inspections than I can tell you. Of course, we get potential buyers who are incredibally picky, like my very dear friend S2K. But those customers are not buying as many older cars, and expecting them to be perfect. Listen, I am all for keeping the very oldest 91's as perfect as the 04's we service, but we have to be realistic. I see cars like yours all the time, and when we discuss the situation with potential buyer, we don't involve emotional issues, and the age of the metals is irrelevant. As mentioned, I would do the t-belt and w/p, four cam seals and plugs, and both ends crank seals- all this assuming the engine checks out on the maintenance inspection. That is not rocket science. I can take a valve cover off and tell you how many oil changes a car has had by the staining of the alloy. You can believe that or not, but the fact is, oil leaves deposits behind which are only washed out with very regular oil changes. The longer these residues lay in a heated head, the less that washes out next change. And an over heated motor has a whole different look.
Back to the potential buyer- many, not all, but many end the discussion with, 'so it is a sound car none the less', and the deal is done.
Maybe you will loose a few, but your car will still be a viable commodity.

All that said, I see the following options still- the insurance company has still not located an LKQ motor, probabally because they are trying to stay in "network". These are the salvage yards on their approved list. Approved doesn't always mean quality, but rather time and price considerations, couple with quick internet or telex locator service. You have the option to work the phones yourself, and if you find the right motor, give them the details and let them buy it for you.
TI Dave has an excellant idea as well, assuming the 91 motor checks out, install it and keep the the damged motor- the ins co will probabally let you do this. Sellit, or rebuild it down the road. It should bring about 2500., which added to the selling price of the car X years from now, should brake you even.
There is no perfect solution, this is not a prefect situation, and certainly not a perfect world. We get injured all the time, we have to take the best recovery option we possibally can, and move on.

Bets of Luck,
MB

 

[Dave Hardy]

Question - I know that for swapping purposes in Cali smog world, an engine has to be the same year or newer than the car. How does this play into the decision. Does Cali smog recognize 91 as identical to 95, or will they fail it because the numbers are wrong?

 

[titaniumdave]

Do we understand why "they" are recommending a used engine? Perhaps "they" don't have much experience rebuilding NSX engines? I would like to know more about their reasoning on this before deciding. Perhaps "they" have valid reasons - perhaps not.

They want to give you a used engine because you had a used engine. Very simple reason, insurance is trying to make your car the 'same' as it was. If you had a rebuilt engine to start with, they would need to rebuild your engine to make it the 'same' as it was.

"Question - I know that for swapping purposes in Cali smog world, an engine has to be the same year or newer than the car. How does this play into the decision. Does Cali smog recognize 91 as identical to 95, or will they fail it because the numbers are wrong?"

The long block, heads on down, are the same for all manual 3.0L motors, all years. The install shop would use all the other parts from the 95.

I have never had Smog test where they look at more than the VIN number on the car, motor serial number should never matter. All they care about is being able to down load the OBD2 information out of the port, I believe.

 

[nsxtasy]

They want to give you a used engine because you had a used engine. Very simple reason, insurance is trying to make your car the 'same' as it was. If you had a rebuilt engine to start with, they would need to rebuild your engine to make it the 'same' as it was.

I think you misunderstood Bill's (OLDE GUY) point, and it is an excellent one.

A shop (like Niello or Comptech) that has enough experience at engine internals to evaluate whether to rebuild vs replace the engine will give you an informed analysis of the pros and cons of each. A shop that doesn't have experience at rebuilding engines is likely to only consider the replacement option, because it doesn't require either judgment calls when the engine is opened, or the expertise to know what to rebuild.

This is the same issue as for transmissions, when snap ring failures occur. A shop that has a lot of experience with transmission internals can open up the transmission and decide whether it can be salvaged by replacing the ring and case; a shop that doesn't, is likely to only recommend replacing the entire transmission. Because of the difference in expertise required, that's why Acura recommends only the replacement option in the TSB for the snap ring problem.

Hope that makes better sense now.

 

[titaniumdave]

I think you misunderstood Bill's (OLDE GUY) point, and it is an excellent one.

A shop (like Niello or Comptech) that has enough experience at engine internals to evaluate whether to rebuild vs replace the engine will give you an informed analysis of the pros and cons of each. A shop that doesn't have experience at rebuilding engines is likely to only consider the replacement option, because it doesn't require either judgment calls when the engine is opened, or the expertise to know what to rebuild.

This is the same issue as for transmissions, when snap ring failures occur. A shop that has a lot of experience with transmission internals can open up the transmission and decide whether it can be salvaged by replacing the ring and case; a shop that doesn't, is likely to only recommend replacing the entire transmission. Because of the difference in expertise required, that's why Acura recommends only the replacement option in the TSB for the snap ring problem.

Hope that makes better sense now.

I understand your point and Bill's point. I was just voicing the insurance company point. Stiddy had a used engine, not rebuilt, so the insurance company would replace it with a used engine, not rebuilt. The responsiblity of insurance is to make the person with a claim 'whole', or as they were before the incident. A used engine would do that. A complete rebuilt engine would in every regard be better than he was before the start of the claim, this would be nice, but clearly is asking for more than he had to start. Cool if he can get that. It seems like a fair settlement would be to get a bottom end rebuild to fix the specific issue created by the oil loss.

I undertand the point of limitations, and I would never let an Acura dealer rebuild any motor, NSX or not. That should be left to the folks that specialize in that, let the dealer do the install if you want, but not much more, IMO.

As far as the snap ring tranny goes, I have one of those sitting in my shop that the snap ring broke on it, little bits of the ring ran through tthe tranny. Not only is there a table spoon of shavings in the bottom of the case, most of the gears have dents in them from the ring bits getting smashed between them as the they turned, the counter shaft bearing is seized, and the case needed to be set up on the milling machine to cut the end of it off to open it up and even inspect it. My guess is this is why Acura suggests R&R with this failure

 

[Dave Hardy]

The long block, heads on down, are the same for all manual 3.0L motors, all years. The install shop would use all the other parts from the 95.

I have never had Smog test where they look at more than the VIN number on the car, motor serial number should never matter. All they care about is being able to down load the OBD2 information out of the port, I believe.

I know they are identical, but for the smog Nazi's that isn't enough. As long as you have normal smog tests you'll be fine, but if you ever end up classified as a gross polluter or end up at a ref station for some reason, I believe that the older engine in the newer car will cause problems.

 

[nsxtasy]

As far as the snap ring tranny goes, I have one of those sitting in my shop that the snap ring broke on it, little bits of the ring ran through tthe tranny. Not only is there a table spoon of shavings in the bottom of the case, most of the gears have dents in them from the ring bits getting smashed between them as the they turned, the counter shaft bearing is seized, and the case needed to be set up on the milling machine to cut the end of it off to open it up and even inspect it. My guess is this is why Acura suggests R&R with this failure

I disagree (but it is admittedly conjecture on both our parts). An experienced transmission tech should be able to understand what damage the failed snap ring may cause, and to examine and evaluate the other parts to determine whether it is feasible to rebuild the transmission, or it must be replaced. Some of them are rebuildable, depending on how much damage has been done; others, like yours, are not. But it takes a specialist to make that determination, someone with a level of transmission expertise that you may find at some dealerships, but not at others. That is why their recommendation is to R&R. IMO, of course.

 

[titaniumdave]

I know they are identical, but for the smog Nazi's that isn't enough. As long as you have normal smog tests you'll be fine, but if you ever end up classified as a gross polluter or end up at a ref station for some reason, I believe that the older engine in the newer car will cause problems.

That does not make any sense, but I trust this has happened to you, bummer! :frown:

 

[nis350]

In case you are getting another engine, you should post the existing engine ID number so that we won't end up buying it in the future.

Just a thought.

 

[Dave Hardy]

That does not make any sense, but I trust this has happened to you, bummer! :frown:

Not me, but it has happened to friends. Once you get on the ref's bad side he can really make life hell for a while.

 

[Stiddy]

The insurance company called today. They plan to send and investigator to Acura tomorrow or the next.

Referring to speculation about a used engine. If I can find a used engine '95 or newer where I know the complete history, I would consider it. Also, regardless of what anyone says here.... If I were buying an NSX that had a used motor put in with 60k on it and no knowledge of it's history, I would not buy without a substantial discount, If I were to buy it at all.

I believe most of you would do the same.

 

[Stiddy]

Talked to insurance today. I have a question which has been mentioned before regarding the life of the engine.

What should be the expected life of an Acura NSX engine? 100k? 200k? 300k?

As always, thank you for your help.

 

[Dave Hardy]

I'd say 250K is a reasonable life on a properly maintained NSX, or really any Honda engine.

 

[Briank]

In your situation the longer the life the better the settlement. There are very few worn-out NSX engines because most cars don't get a lot of mileage and they will run fine with proper maintenance beyond 200K. I would guess most non FI engines get killed by overheating or lack of oil. I think you said your engine had 56k on it so I would consider it only have to have 25% of its useful life used. So if you start with new engine costing $35k and take off 25% or $8750 you get $26250. I doubt that the insurance will hand you a check for $26K but it doesn’t make a bad place to start negotiating from.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

Another "if it was me"

I would (without hesitation) do a full re-build. I would walk away with a perfect compression motor, all new bearings, seals, gaskets, fresh hone, a chance to upgrade pistons and rings, and possibly change compression ratio for future FI etc etc. To me a no brainer. REBUILD IT!

The shop will work with you as far as where the money will go. skip a few things, ad a few, kick in some of your own money for extras etc.

 

[Bob1374]

I can't read this post any longer without throwing in my 2 cents from personal experience:

Being lazy a couple years back, I took my ITR to a local gas station to get the oil changed. Long story short, they double gasketed the oil filter and it opened up 50 miles later. I killed the engine when I saw the oil pressure light on. There was an oil trail about 200 yards behind the car upon inspection of the area.

I went to the station and agreed to let them pay to have it towed to Acura for initial inspection to ensure it was their fault. I refused to allow their adjuster fill the car with oil and start it, but he did take oil samples for testing. When he left I let Acura start it and they said it ran fine. However, I made a deal with their insurance company to have the car flatbedded to my private mechanic for inspection being that it would be cheaper then allowing Acura to do it.

Upon inspection it was found that there were heat marks on the cams, rockers, head, etc. In the end I cut a deal that allowed me to have my mechanic replace everything and they just wrote me a check. I then purchased all aftermarket parts and sold everything that was damaged (telling all purchasers that said parts were slightly heat damaged) but still useable online given that the insurance company didn't request the damaged parts. I ended up with an entirely re-built Toda Racing motor that dynoed at 200 peak whp and was professionally built and tuned. It took time, but it was worth it in the end. Further, it didn't cost me much out of pocket and they had to provide me with a rental car.

That said, there are two big differences between my story and yours: 1) a b18c5 is a much cheaper motor than the c30; and 2) unless I am mistaken, you don't have the advantage of being a lawyer, thereby negotiating the settlement with significant leverage. Nevertheless, take my story for what it's worth and hopefully things will work out. Good luck.

 

[titaniumdave]

Talked to insurance today. I have a question which has been mentioned before regarding the life of the engine.

What should be the expected life of an Acura NSX engine? 100k? 200k? 300k?

As always, thank you for your help.

300k is reasonable for a daily driver, IMO. I have 104K and still stock spec for compression and leak down, at temperature it still hold oil pressure. Change the oil (yourself) and they last and last. I think the NSX is unique even for Hondas, most of us change the oil more often and run a higher grade than your average person, so the engines run better and last longer.

This is part of the reason I would not have an issue with a used engine that passes an inspection, chances are good it was cared for the same way your engine was, easy to check the compression, leak down the cylinders, and pull a few main bearing to inspect for wear. If you are real concerned, pull a head and see the condition of the chambers and valves.

 

[nsxtasy]

if you start with new engine costing $35k

A new engine doesn't cost $35K. I believe list price is around $23K, and it usually sells at a significant discount from list. Granted, there is substantial installation labor involved; they should be figuring that separately and including it on top of the parts cost.

 

[ChopsJazz]

Since I've read this entire thread I just want to add my $.02. After all is said and done, the insurance company will not do any work. They never do. They will write a check. It is up to you to decide what to do with it. Personally, I'd cast my vote for a rebuild.

Why buy a '91 engine with an unknown past? Granted, we know it hit a tree. But how? In the back end? On the intake side? Cars do hit obstacles on their sides. Pass on the '91 engine.

Get the check for the $ value of the damage and rebuild your engine. After all, who among us would not like a fresh rebuild from a shop like Comptech or Niello?

 

[OLDE GUY]

.....Pass on the '91 engine. Get the check for the $ value of the damage and rebuild your engine. After all, who among us would not like a fresh rebuild from a shop like Comptech or Niello?

Having followed this thread with interest, I agree with ChopsJazz and others. I would rebuild your engine if Neillo or Comptech agree it can be done successfully. You are most fortunate to live near those shops.

 

[brian_k03]

Never ever use Jiffy Lube unless your car is a POS.

unless u want a new motor
lol


good luck
this seems to be a common problem for these cheep oil places.

 

[MIKE5261]

My 91 NSX HAS 341950 MILES ON THE ORIGINAL ENGINE. STILL RUNNING STRONG AND I WOULDNOT BE SUPRISED IF THIS ENGINE CLOCKS OVER 500,000 MILES OR MORE, THIS ENGINE HAS NEVER HAD MORE THAN THE NORMAL MAINTENCE IF THE INSURANCE CO. WANTS VERIFACTION YOU CAN PM ME AND I WILL BE HAPPY TO CONFIRM THIS FOR YOU AND THE INSURANCE CO. HOLD YOUR GROUND WITH THEM DONT LET THEM BULLY YOU INTO ACCEPTING A LESSER AMOUNT THAN YOU ARE ENTITLED TO, YOU BROUGHT YOUR CAR IN WITH THE EXPECTATION OF COMPETENT SERVICE AND YOU RECIEVED NEGLIGENT SERVICE. IF THE INSURANCE WONT PAY THE SHOP SHOULD PAY THE DIFFERENCE. THAT SHOP SHOULDNOT BE WORKING ON AN NSX IF THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. IT DOESNOT SOUND LIKE YOU ARE ASKING FOR A REPLACEMENT CAR WHILE YOURS IS DOWN OR COMPENSATION FOR LOSS OF USE AND OTHER INCIDENTAL DAMAGES BUT IMAGINE HOW MUCH THE COST WOULD GO UP IF THERE WAS AN ATTORNEY INVOLVED.