Oil change nightmare?

[DocL]

I'm glad that took the advice that most of us gave you to have the bottom end checked out. No matter where you get the engine rebuilt, it will most definitely be like new again, and I'd have no problem buying the car. It's a shame that a stupid mistake that could have been corrected in ten seconds caused you this agony.

Now, since you are probably going to be dealing with a shop owner and insurance company whom have no idea about the expense it will cost to rebuild your engine, I'd hire an attorney. You are going to get a run around so bad that it'll make your head spin.

Good luck and please keep us updated. There are many of us here who can give you great advice, especially on the technical side.

 

[nsxtasy]

It as been recommended I get my car out of Acura ASAP and take it to Comptech, which is in my area.

I'm not sure why. If your car is at Niello, and Bruce Pettite is working on it, it's in good hands. (Note: if you take your car to Niello for service, you should join the NSX Club, since the discounts they offer to club members on service and parts should more than pay for your membership dues.)

 

[Banshee Wail]

Originally Posted by Stiddy

I'm not sure why. If your car is at Niello, and Bruce Pettite is working on it, it's in good hands. (Note: if you take your car to Niello for service, you should join the NSX Club, since the discounts they offer to club members on service and parts should more than pay for your membership dues.)

I agree. I have my 91 serviced at a nearby dealership, they have always given me good service, and a loaner car while it is being worked on.

Now, if I can just get them to loan me a 2005 nsx while i'm getting an oil change.

 

[Stiddy]

update:

The main bearing, rod bearing, a some cam components were all damaged. I wish I could be more specific, but I don't remember exactly. I'm having the dealer document everything.

They are recommending a complete engine. A new one is very expensive. They suggested a used engine from a '91 that hit a tree. I laughed. I don't want a used one at all. What do y'all think?

Still haven't heard from the oil changer's insurance. I will be hot on their trail tomorrow.

I'll keep you up to date.

 

[apapada]

I'd send them the bill for a new NSX engine ($20K-$30K) or propose them to pay for a FX400 rebuilt by Factor X Motorsports :wink:

 

[drew]

Unlikely you will get a new engine on a 15 year old car.

Most insurers can specify used and it is an accepted practice. Unless you want to pay up for a lawyer (unrecoverable costs), which will eat up the costs between what they are willing to compensate you and the difference of a new engine very quickly.

You press the case hard enough and they might deny and force you to prove your case: causing you to get a lawyer (again with unrecoverable costs). Going through a jury trial will cost you every bit as much as a new engine and if you win: you just might break even--which the payment for a new engine will cost the same as your court costs.

For every expert you have to hire (your dealer may send mechanics on your behalf at their normal hourly shop rate, or may refuse completely. Ask them what their policy on litigation is, is it in writing? ) , pay for analyized evidence and lots of billable hours...the insurance has all of this on retainer and is essentially "free" to them. Expect a lot of down time.

It is free to ask, but the tree strike sounds just fine to me. It is probably better than rebuilding your existing engine. You have a fine line to walk: insisting on a new engine is probably not reasonable.

Winning in court is about who has the most resources. I've been to court three times against big city government and I've won them all...but the cases were fairly solid and I had sufficient resources to press the cases all the way. Once this is clear to the other party you've gone a couple of rounds: they settle...not big wins, you have to go all the way for that.

Consider: do you have the resources to back up your demands?? Call some lawyers up and drop a few hundred dollars to educate yourself...the folks on the list are not going to show in court with you.

Drew

 

[nsxtasy]

They are recommending a complete engine. A new one is very expensive. They suggested a used engine from a '91 that hit a tree. I laughed. I don't want a used one at all. What do y'all think?

I think a used one is perfectly acceptable, assuming the car it came from doesn't have way, way more miles on it than yours.

If they offer you a new one, or you think you can talk them into it, by all means take it. But if it looks like you would have to take them to court to get it, then I would take the used one to get the matter settled quickly and painlessly. (Great explanation, Drew.)

 

[NSXTech]

Drew is spot on. In the biz, its called LKQ for Like and Kind Quality. You had a 15 year old XXK engine before you were harmed, and you should be restored to your pre evnt condition. Some insurance companies will replace with new if YOU are the insured and have very expensive insurance. Others will buy new if you can prove the unavailability of LKQ, but then charge you "betterment" or use charge. They usually base this on a 100k motor avg life, so you would pay a percentage of the cost equal to the miles you have, i.e 56k miles is 56% of 100k. If the motor cost ten grand, you would pay 5600 for a new motor. This formula is not cast in stone however. I have given expert testimony in several cases (arbitrations) where I have been asked the average life span of a Honda motor. Customers betterment charges were reduced from 36 to 50 percent.

In my experience, unless you plan to go FI or someother HOT MOD, I think you are better off with a WELL MAINTENED 56k used motor FACTORY assembled motor, than one rebuilt by anybody.

Pick the install shop carefully. They have the right to inspect the used motor before accepting it. Pulling a valve cover will tell them all they need to know about maintenance. Also, all salvage yards that have contracts with insurance companies have at least a one year warranty. Do not sigh off on the claim untill YOU get a copy of it.

Good Luck,
MB

 

[Stiddy]

My car is a '95. They have suggested a used '91 with 60k. I told them no way. The other option was a '96 with over 100k on it.

Back to my earlier question modified again.

Would you buy my car If the ad read...

" '95 NSX with '91 engine."

or would you rather hear...

" '95 NSX with complete rebuild by Comptech"

All responses are greatly appreciated.

 

[loNfastNSX]

How many miles are on your current engine? I personally would not accept a motor that is older than mine, nor one that hase alot more miles than mine.

Tell them that you want to search for an engine as a replacement and have Chris at SOS send you a quote for the 3.3 NA build. On the other hand if you want only what was lost, get a quote for the 3.0 engines they sell.

In any case, sounds like they are trying to screw you, DONT LET THEM!!!!

 

[drew]

All responses are greatly appreciated.

Then you will really like this one.

If you are _lucky_ you will get a check for the 91 engine + install allowance.

What you do with your check is up to you: buy a new engine, rebuild yours with Comptech or drive it until it breaks (and look for a nice used engine along the way, my strong recommendation).

What I suspect will happen is that you will get a settlement minus the depreciation of your existing engine (as NSXtech pitched).

Insurance companies in CA do not respond to "dimished value", which is what you are alluding to. You have very little control on what they are going to do, unless you have sufficient resources to press your case. They can drag this thing out for months and months without consequence.

It is not a question of right vs wrong. It is a question of resources and time....how much of it are you willing to spend?

Good Luck

Drew
/last post on this thread.

 

[nsxtasy]

My car is a '95. They have suggested a used '91 with 60k.

The '91 engine is identical to the '95 engine.

Would you buy my car If the ad read...

" '95 NSX with '91 engine."

or would you rather hear...

" '95 NSX with complete rebuild by Comptech"

All responses are greatly appreciated.

For a '95 NSX with an engine from a '91, if you could explain (preferably with documentation) (a) why the engine was replaced, and (b) that the engine didn't have substantially more miles than the rest of the car, then yes, I would buy it. In fact, I wouldn't even expect the market value of the car to be diminished in any way.

Rebuilds might be a different story, because there are a lot of different reasons for rebuilding an engine, and a lot of ways to do so (bone stock, or many different ways to deviate from stock). I might not buy a car with a rebuilt engine, depending on why and how it was rebuilt.

 

[DocL]

My car is a '95. They have suggested a used '91 with 60k. I told them no way. The other option was a '96 with over 100k on it.

Back to my earlier question modified again.

Would you buy my car If the ad read...

" '95 NSX with '91 engine."

or would you rather hear...

" '95 NSX with complete rebuild by Comptech"

All responses are greatly appreciated.

I echo what NSXTASY said. But, it would be nice if you were able to get a new engine or a fresh rebuild from Comptech with all OEM parts and no messing around with the bore and stroke.

Remember: K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple & Stupid )

 

[Stiddy]

My car is a '95. The engine has 56k on it. My car is not at Niello. It is at Elk Grove Acura.

How much should I be concerned about where the donor engine came from?

Such as: Fire vs. Car it a tree vs. rear ended. What kind of accidents will effect the engine?

Not knowing the history behind an engine makes me very nervous. Most people selling a used engine have no history.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[SCS2k]

The '91 engine is identical to the '95 engine.

For a '95 NSX with an engine from a '91, if you could explain (preferably with documentation) (a) why the engine was replaced, and (b) that the engine didn't have substantially more miles than the rest of the car, then yes, I would buy it. In fact, I wouldn't even expect the market value of the car to be diminished in any way.

Rebuilds might be a different story, because there are a lot of different reasons for rebuilding an engine, and a lot of ways to do so (bone stock, or many different ways to deviate from stock). I might not buy a car with a rebuilt engine, depending on why and how it was rebuilt.

I would beg to differ, at least with the first part. If I were looking at 2 '95 NSXs and one had a motor from a '91 in it, I know which one I would choose if all other things were equal. I likely wouldn't buy the car at all unless it was from someone I knew or was priced substantially lower. How many times do we see posts on here about cars on ebay, autotrader etc where even the LOOK of anything suspicious causes people to say "walk away".

Imagine this post: "What do you guys think of this car? It is a '95 NSX that had the engine replaced with one from a '91 at 56k miles due to improperly tightened oil drain plug."

What would most of the responses on this site be? I would dare say most people would recommend waiting for another car with no history of engine replacement.

 

[nsxtasy]

If I were looking at 2 '95 NSXs and one had a motor from a '91 in it, I know which one I would choose if all other things were equal. I likely wouldn't buy the car at all unless it was from someone I knew or was priced substantially lower.

That may be what ***YOU*** would do. However, having seen what these cars trade for on the market, and what factors affect their market price, I do not think an engine replacement significantly affects the market value of the car, assuming that the replacement engine doesn't have more miles on it than the car does. That's not just what ***I*** would buy; that's my assessment of how easy the car is to sell at any particular price representing its market value. I really think that the car's value isn't affected by the replacement of the engine for reasons having to do with the engine (e.g. oil starvation), and not for reasons that might represent a reflection on the rest of the car (e.g. serious accident). It would probably be different for a recent NSX, or for an extremely low mileage NSX. But not for a ten-year-old NSX with average mileage or higher.

Imagine this post: "What do you guys think of this car? It is a '95 NSX that had the engine replaced with one from a '91 at 56k miles due to improperly tightened oil drain plug."

What would most of the responses on this site be? I would dare say most people would recommend waiting for another car with no history of engine replacement.

If it's noted that the mileage on the replacement engine is no more than on the car, I think a lot of people would be willing to buy it, as long as it's otherwise a sound car at a fair price. And remember, all it takes is one.

 

[Patdeisa]

My car is a '95. They have suggested a used '91 with 60k. I told them no way. The other option was a '96 with over 100k on it.

Back to my earlier question modified again.

Would you buy my car If the ad read...

" '95 NSX with '91 engine."

or would you rather hear...

" '95 NSX with complete rebuild by Comptech"

All responses are greatly appreciated.

As a future NSX buyer, here's my input:

1) I would most likely pass up a '95 with a '91 engine, unless there was a good discount (ie. $4k+). It brings up the whole "if it doesn't seem right, walk away" idea, especially since the donor car was in a severe accident and in the California area, you can easily find another car for sale. Also, unless you tear down the replacement engine, you don't know if it's been abused or not.

2) I'd prefer the complete rebuild by Comptech, with maybe a few goodies added. That might negate the fact that the engine needed work, due to the fact that it'd have new parts in it. I know it may not be built by Honda engineers, but at least it doesn't sound like a patchwork insurance repair job.

If they do put in the '91 engine, can you get a payment for the depreciation value of the car similar to if it was in an accident? I don't know about that...

 

[hlweyl]

If it were me, I would have the current engine rebuilt. Find the best person and demand that it be rebuilt by them. That is, as long as the damage was only to bearings and not a cracked block.

I would prefer to keep the original engine freshly rebuilt by an expert than a used engine which is an unknown quantity (maintenance, abuse, etc).

good luck

 

[Dave Hardy]

If the top end showed no signs of damage, and the only evidence in the bottom end was limited to the bearings (no rod, crank, or block damage), then I'd go for a comptech rebuild over a '91 engine. While it is technically the same, I agree that it would get the evil eye on resell were it posted here.

 

[nsxtasy]

If they do put in the '91 engine, can you get a payment for the depreciation value of the car similar to if it was in an accident?

No. This is the "diminished value" that Drew alluded to in his post. You will almost certainly never get reimbursement for this unless the matter is settled via litigation, in which case you're also going to have a host of other issues and risks.

 

[titaniumdave]

I would get the 91 motor, work out a deal to keep your 95 motor, do the inspection on the new motor and provided all the bearings and top end area looks good install it and drive it, be glad you went the extra distance and pursued a comprehensive inspection. Make sure to figure in all new gaskets, water pump and timing belt in the 91 motor when it goes back in and a new oil pressure sender at both ends of the motor. I would not consider there to be a drop in value to the car, instead there is an increase because you get the 60K service out of the way.

When all the dust settles, sell the motor to some one for rebuilding, sounds like all it needs is bearings for it to be a runner again, or a great donor for a shop like Factor X. They buy motors from time to time. I just saw a basket case NSX motor on E-bay that went for close to $2000, and it looked like a pile of crap Your is still together and you know the top end is good.

 

[OLDE GUY]

....The main bearing, rod bearing, a some cam components were all damaged....They are recommending a complete engine. A new one is very expensive. They suggested a used engine from a '91 that hit a tree. .

Do we understand why "they" are recommending a used engine? Perhaps "they" don't have much experience rebuilding NSX engines? I would like to know more about their reasoning on this before deciding. Perhaps "they" have valid reasons - perhaps not.

 

[nsxtasy]

Do we understand why "they" are recommending a used engine? Perhaps "they" don't have much experience rebuilding NSX engines?

Well, we know they (Elk Grove Acura) are not the most experienced dealer in town at servicing NSXs. (Niello is.)

I would like to know more about their reasoning on this before deciding. Perhaps "they" have valid reasons - perhaps not.

Good point...

 

[apapada]

The '91 engine is identical to the '95 engine.

Not quite. I know I'm stating the obvious but one is at least 4 years older than the other, even with equal miles. Age does have an impact on seals, plastics and engines components in general.

For a '95 NSX with an engine from a '91, if you could explain (preferably with documentation) (a) why the engine was replaced, and (b) that the engine didn't have substantially more miles than the rest of the car, then yes, I would buy it. In fact, I wouldn't even expect the market value of the car to be diminished in any way.

Ken, you say this because you know better than the average Joe Schmo out there looking for his first NSX. To the average guy out there, no documentation will ever convince him that an older engine in a newer car is by all means the same as if this car had an engine of the same year and expect him to pay the same $$$ for these reasons.

Rebuilds might be a different story, because there are a lot of different reasons for rebuilding an engine, and a lot of ways to do so (bone stock, or many different ways to deviate from stock). I might not buy a car with a rebuilt engine, depending on why and how it was rebuilt.

Agreed. But either way, its a loose-loose situation when considering the buyer being the average Joe out there. Probably a different story if it's someone knowledgeable from Prime.

 

[Stiddy]

Do we understand why "they" are recommending a used engine? Perhaps "they" don't have much experience rebuilding NSX engines? I would like to know more about their reasoning on this before deciding. Perhaps "they" have valid reasons - perhaps not.

"They" don't seem to know much of anything about NSX's. I had it towed there because "They" were the closest. Once I'm done dealing with the insurance company, "They" won't have my car anymore. I most certainly will have someone else doing the work. "They" would have had me drive home once they found out it "sounded ok" after putting oil in it. "They" would have had me drive home once "They" didn't see any real damage after removing the valve covers. "They" are recommending a used engine because I believe "They" wouldn't know how to put mine back together right.

"ALL OF YOU" will be the ones who ultimately deserve credit, if I'm able to save my car. I certainly cannot take any credit. I have simply been "your" mouth piece from the beginning. I even had the service writer pull up this post, and made him address the issues brought up by "ALL OF YOU".

I doubt this is the first, nor will it be the last car that NSXPrime has saved.

By the way if any of you are interested, to help give you a better picture.

My car is a '95 NSX-T Brookslands Green Pearl with Tan Interior and Zanardi Suspension.

When I first bought it, I had never seen one before...and have never since(green that is) I like it that way. I see NSX's every so often. I have never seen a green one other than in my garage. My wife wanted me to get green because it is her favorite color, and the color of my eyes. I hope I'm not getting to mushy for all of you.