NSX Succesor to be announced tonight? 7/11/05?

[Carl Ramsey]

Honda to ALMS, maybe Champ Car UPDATE #2

This may be why Honda is rumored to enter ALMS - to compete head-to-head against the Corvette, Aston Martin and Mercedes MC12 - Honda has finally confirmed it will replace its current long-running NSX 'supercar' - first launched in 1991. The automaker said in a statement on Tuesday that it is developing a new car to succeed the current model and that production of the present generation NSX will cease at the end of the year due to the extensive re-tooling necessary to meet stringent 2006 emissions and equipment regulations for the US, Europe and Asia.

The NSX is sold as an Acura in the US and as a Honda in all other markets. Sales of the hand-built model produced in a dedicated factory in Japan have reduced to a trickle in recent years, though the car has received regular updates. "We are committed to having an ultra high-performance vehicle in the Acura lineup in the future," said John Mendel, senior vice president, automobile operations, for Honda Motor's California-based US unit. "It's too early to comment on specifics, but the all-new model will be just as groundbreaking as the 1991 NSX."
Just-Auto

07/12/05 "I really can't talk for what Honda is going to do," Kevin Kalkhoven commented. "We have a continuing dialogue with them, as we do with other manufacturers. They have proven to be very friendly and cooperative and we'll wait to see what happens. (Competition) wouldn't be done in the way it was in the past, which is uncontrolled development by the manufacturers. I think that it's great when manufacturers are in, but the rules have to be set such that it is fair competition." ChapCar.ws

06/30/05 Brian Barnhart, the chief operating officer of the Indy Racing League, stated Wednesday that he wasn't sure if his series was any better off with Toyota and Honda since it hasn't improved attendance and television ratings. Hmmm, that sure sounds like a rather unappreciative man without an engine program for the future.
Because that's not how Barnhart and his IRL brethren sounded a four years ago when those two major manufacturers dumped CART for Tony George's series. The "League" was downright giddy and used phrases like "a great day for the IRL" and "the IRL has turned the corner."

Of course that lovefest is over.

SPEEDTV.com has learned that Honda Performance Development will enter the American LeMans Series next year in order to compete head-to-head with Porsche and Penske in the LMP2 category.

It's believed Bobby Rahal will be the lead team and it's also likely than Andretti/Green could be involved as well as another prominent car owner.
"That's news to me because no one from Honda has said anything to me about it," said Rahal on Wednesday night. "Now I've made no secret of my desire to be involved in sports car racing and I've talked to Audi, Aston Martin and Ferrari in the past few years but haven't been able to put anything together.

"All I know is that I've got a contract with Honda in the IRL."
This scenario becomes extra interesting because Champ Car and ALMS are working on a deal to run half a dozen doubleheaders together in 2006 -- beginning with Long Beach. So, indirectly, Honda would be again associated with Champ Car.

And, despite earlier denials from HPD president Robert Clarke, don't think for a minute the six-time manufacturer's champion in CART still isn't looking at returning to Champ Car if the IRL can't provide suitable competition.
Clarke has been talking with both sides for several weeks about having a unified series by 2007 (it ain't gonna happen) and would like the Cosworth IRL engine (owned by Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe and currently badged by Chevrolet) to continue competing against Honda.

Hyundai, the seventh largest car manufacturer in the world, is exploring the possibility of badging the Cosworth in the IRL. But it's rumored that Honda has no desire to run against the Korean manufacturer it considers inferior, so that might not work.

HPD thrives on using its engineering prowess and resources to compete against major brands so taking on Porsche in the ALMS certainly meets that criteria.

But right now it's hard to say where Honda will be past 2006. Other than sports cars, of course. More at SPEEDTV.com

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/17918/

 

[myf16]

Re: It's Official the NSX is DEAD as of 2005/2006

So what does that do to the value of our cars? Should we gobble up any remaining 05 cars and put them in a sealed baggy somewhere?

When you can no longer get a new car at any price, used car prices should go up. Some collectors will prefer the old NSX (more likely the earlier years) to the new car. Did the 308 kill the market value of earlier Ferraris? Hardly.

I believe that the low point in used NSX prices is NOW.

 

[Bigglezworth]

Re: announcement tonight 7/11/05?

Just out of curiosity, does it come with an engine block heater in Canada?

Nothing on my ride. :smile:

 

[TC]

It would have to be 6-15 months from sale NOW to make the 2007 model year. I doubt that they're that far along, if they are first announcing the decision now. More likely, it will go on the market no sooner than 24-36 months from now, which would make it late 2007 as a 2008 model car, at best. More likely, look for early 2008 as a 2009 model.

While I don't always fully agree with Ken - IMO Ken suffers from NIIB (NSX Infatuation Induced Blindness) that prevents him from seeing any shortcomings with the NSX and also prevents him from seeing the virtues of other exotic sports cars - I believe he is absolutely correct about the timing of the new Honda/Acura sports car. We're not going to see anything for at least 3 years.

And while it is fun to try to read between the lines to figure out what Honda is doing, I believe that they just don't know what the next car will be about. After years and years of direct and indirect promises from Honda about a new NSX/HSC, the only rumor that has proved out has been that the NSX will be cancelled in 2005. It seems as though Honda is now committing to develop a new sports car but beyond that, they are probably at ground zero.

Honda seems to have also developed the gift of marketing-speak. Claiming that the NSX is being cancelled for changing emissions regulations (could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that it is a 15-year old car that sells about 225 units per year?) is putting an extremely optimistic spin on reality. My wife's 05 RL with SUPER HANDLING is also a very optimistic term for a car with a near 60/40 weight bias. The car does handle well, but it isn't anything close to "super handling."

As for the new car being as breakthrough as the NSX was in 1991, that seems very hard to believe. Not only do competitor cars offer substantially more power, but also features like composite brakes, 7-speed sequential shifters, electronic rear differentials, F1-style launch control, race stability control, carbon-fiber body panels, etc. It's hard to imagine that Honda can not only catch-up but leap frog everyone in one move. And the competition will certainly field better products between now and whenever the new car is brought to market.

I'm betting the new car will be something like a hybrid powertrain + SH AWD - a new twist but nothing to get the serious performance car adificios excited. Just like Honda could not bring themselves to build the new RL with a V8 and a proper FR platform, they are going to do something that won't be positioned as a head-on competitor to the likes of Ferrari, Porsche or even Corvette.

As always, JMO.

 

[Patdeisa]

I hope Honda doesn't play on the same field as the others in the hp wars with a heavy, front engined car. I hope they decide to go the other way and do a ~450 hp (~3.6L 8700 rpm V8 with I-VTEC) mid engine 2600 lb. car, which would likely blow everything else away. I missed the intro of the nsx, as I was only in 8th grade at the time, but I'm here for the next version- let's hope it's light and fast!

 

[NSX-Racer]

New picture

Reminds me a bit of the Honda Dualnote showcar with hybrid engine.

 

[White92]

The only thing that worries me about Honda saying on Tuesday night that the new one will be just as groundbreaking as it was in 91, is that a very similar statment was made when they introduced the HSC to the public. Where is that car now? Obviously they didn't back up those statements with anything. I hope this doesn't happen again. Wouldn't that just be terrible if they killed the NSX after this year, they made strong statements about a replacement and then nothing ever came of it?

 

[TC]

I hope Honda doesn't play on the same field as the others in the hp wars with a heavy, front engined car. I hope they decide to go the other way and do a ~450 hp (~3.6L 8700 rpm V8 with I-VTEC) mid engine 2600 lb. car, which would likely blow everything else away. I missed the intro of the nsx, as I was only in 8th grade at the time, but I'm here for the next version- let's hope it's light and fast!

That would be sweet but not likely. The current NSX is about 3150, so you're talking a 550 lb reduction while adding a bigger enginer (along with bigger wheels, brakes, etc.). The S2000 weighs 2850 lb., so getting the larger NSX below that is likely impossible. Note that the 06 Z06 weighs in at 3130 lb, so it is no heavier than the NSX.

 

[willabeest]

That would be sweet but not likely. The current NSX is about 3150, so you're talking a 550 lb reduction while adding a bigger enginer (along with bigger wheels, brakes, etc.). The S2000 weighs 2850 lb., so getting the larger NSX below that is likely impossible. Note that the 06 Z06 weighs in at 3130 lb, so it is no heavier than the NSX.

well...look at how light the new lotus elise is. maybe Honda R and D is thinking along those lines. how about a 2000 pound car about the size of an elise with a 300 HP engine? or even 400 HP??
that would be ground-breaking, is do-able and would blow everything else out of the water.

 

[White92]

well...look at how light the new lotus elise is. maybe Honda R and D is thinking along those lines. how about a 2000 pound car about the size of an elise with a 300 HP engine? or even 400 HP??
that would be ground-breaking, is do-able and would blow everything else out of the water.

Yeah, but would you be able to drive it everyday? From what I hear of the Elise, it's very loud and creaks like a boat. Sure it's a blast, but the NSX is also well known for being a daily driver. If you make it too lght you get into problems of no sound deadening, etc...
I know I probably wouldn't want one.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

I dont get what all the hooplah is about, most people cant afford to drive the 20,000 to 30,000 NSX whats the rush for Honda to put out a new one for at least 70,000? You are driving a great engineered car today, why be concerned with tomorrow. No denying that there are more than a few cars that outperform the NSX, but the sum of its (NSX) parts are greater than the whole. Honda will do what Honda will do regardless of how many Prime members say they have the check ready for the new "NSX" or "HSC"


jmo

Armando

 

[willabeest]

Yeah, but would you be able to drive it everyday? From what I hear of the Elise, it's very loud and creaks like a boat. Sure it's a blast, but the NSX is also well known for being a daily driver. If you make it too lght you get into problems of no sound deadening, etc...
I know I probably wouldn't want one.

the ELISE may be noisy and creak and break etc. etc. but that doesn't mean
a honda equivalent will.
ground-breaking is ground-breaking. unless they develop a hover-craft this has to be a new wrinkle. a 2000 pound 375 HP two seater would fill the bill. everything else has been done. and it would let honda stomp on the competition AND still use a six cylinder. and it probably would get good gas mileage!
another possibility would be a very fast hybrid. that would be new. :smile:

 

[TC]

the ELISE may be noisy and creak and break etc. etc. but that doesn't mean
a honda equivalent will.
ground-breaking is ground-breaking. unless they develop a hover-craft this has to be a new wrinkle. a 2000 pound 375 HP two seater would fill the bill. everything else has been done. and it would let honda stomp on the competition AND still use a six cylinder. and it probably would get good gas mileage!
another possibility would be a very fast hybrid. that would be new. :smile:

No doubt a Honda Elise-type car would be well built, but to get the weight down to 2000 lb, or even 2,600, you're talking total stripper - no sound deadening, thin bulkheads, etc. - which translates to excessive road and wind noise. Also, minimal creature comforts - no A/C, minimal carpeting or upholstery, manual windows/locks, etc. Forget a multi-speaker sound system, navigation system, etc. Forget a trunk or any type of storage. Such a car would be a blast but have very limited appeal regardless of how well it is built. The formula that the NSX pioneered - an exotic that you can drive everyday, take on weekend trips, and take to the track - is just what Ferrari, Corvette and Porsche are delivering today.

 

[TC]

The only thing that worries me about Honda saying on Tuesday night that the new one will be just as groundbreaking as it was in 91, is that a very similar statment was made when they introduced the HSC to the public. Where is that car now? Obviously they didn't back up those statements with anything. I hope this doesn't happen again. Wouldn't that just be terrible if they killed the NSX after this year, they made strong statements about a replacement and then nothing ever came of it?

I agree totally. Honda's use of the word "groundbreaking" has raised expectations to an unrealistic level. On one website, posters are saying that the new NSX will "crush" the Z06 in straight-line performance and "destroy" the F430 on the race track. Honda/Acura also hyped-up the new RL, which is a fine care but nothing special compared to its competition (and my wife owns one).

 

[swbatte]

I agree totally. Honda's use of the word "groundbreaking" has raised expectations to an unrealistic level. On one website, posters are saying that the new NSX will "crush" the Z06 in straight-line performance and "destroy" the F430 on the race track. Honda/Acura also hyped-up the new RL, which is a fine care but nothing special compared to its competition (and my wife owns one).

I concur with this. The RL is technologically advanced, competes very agressively with higher priced competition and would be my choice in that segment. The Ridgeline, TL, TSX and even the Accord could have the same things said about it.

My real hope is that as a "flagship" for the "flagship" line it will have to be something MORE than just competitive. MORE than just well equiped for the price and MORE than the sum of its parts. That's what makes our cars special.

If the new one doesn't have the synergy, the attention to detail and the prestige that comes with being hand built by a hand picked team, let the name NSX rest in piece and call it something else.

But bring on a light weight, high powered, mid engined car that makes everyone say "Enzo who?" and I'll take one!

 

[nsxtasy]

IMO Ken suffers from NIIB (NSX Infatuation Induced Blindness) that prevents him from seeing any shortcomings with the NSX and also prevents him from seeing the virtues of other exotic sports cars

You might be quite surprised to find out otherwise. Come to NSXPO 2005. Let's chat there.

Honda's use of the word "groundbreaking" has raised expectations to an unrealistic level.

How do you know that the expectations are unrealistic, if you don't know anything about the new car?

I see that statement as a mission statement. I think most of us would agree that Honda has the talent to design and build the best sports car in the world, if they want to. I think they are now saying that they want to, that that is what they are charging their development team with. I say, good for them. This was the same mission they had last time around, and they succeeded. Let's see what they come up with before making claims about how realistic their expectations are.

As I see it, the debate about "What should the next NSX be?" was always a debate between building a nice $50-60K car that might sell well but wouldn't be groundbreaking in any way, or another, more expensive car (call it $90K or $120K or whatever you want to guess) that wouldn't achieve the kind of sales volume of an S2000 (for example) but would be admired and lusted after by car enthusiasts all over. That argument has apparently been decided in favor of the latter. At least, they now say that's what they're shooting for. I say, go for it guys.

 

[rickysals]

all I honestly care about is that they make it with enough room for a 6'5" man (me) can fit in one when I buy one in 6 years.

 

[Silver F16]

Historically, Honda will not even talk about a vehicle introduction until most of the design are already established. The last 2 years prior to launch are to nail down the final design details, manufacturing proces, and product validation. Before you even get to 2 years prior to launch, the primary designs are complete and you already having make shift prototypes running around.

As an example, approx 2 years before the Honda Ridgeline was introduced, Honda was making public statements that they are evalutating whether there will be a Honda truck. This is just a BS public statment because the truck development has already come a long way. You do not go from a blank CAD screen to vehicles in showrooms in 2 years. More like 4-5 years for a complete new vehicle, which is what this new vehicle will be.

Honda probably hasn't been sitting on their ass for the last several years. I'm sure they had some test vehicles with various engine /drivetrain configuration being evaluated. Remember during the NSX development there were V12 running around and Honda later determined it hampered handling. Point is, I believe Honda has already defined the engine and the drive train configuation. The HSC was their vehicle to gauge public response and is a valueable input to what additional changes are required. Honda is now putting the finishing touches on the vehicle and look for it as a MY 07 or 08.

Concept cars, on the other hand is a different story. The Honda SSM was shown in auto show circuits in 1995. 5 years later, it became a reality as the S20000. A true concept car is no where near production ready and will require extensive redesign not to mention management approval for go ahead. We didn't hear about public statment from Honda indicating production intent of the S2000 until about 2 years prior to launch.

Honda will not pull a Nissan by getting your excited so you can wait another 4 years. In the 2003 Tokyo show Carlos Ghoen announced in that the Skyline GTR replacement will be on sale 4 years from then in 2007.

 

[NetViper]

I agree totally. Honda's use of the word "groundbreaking" has raised expectations to an unrealistic level. On one website, posters are saying that the new NSX will "crush" the Z06 in straight-line performance and "destroy" the F430 on the race track. Honda/Acura also hyped-up the new RL, which is a fine care but nothing special compared to its competition (and my wife owns one).

I would be happy if it had F430 levels of performance for $90K. The question is, in 2008, what will Ferrari have?

Whatever Honda does, I hope it will make us all proud.

 

[NetViper]

The HSC was their vehicle to gauge public response and is a valueable input to what additional changes are required. Honda is now putting the finishing touches on the vehicle and look for it as a MY 07 or 08.

I never really heard much about how the public recieved the HSC. I know what we are prime thought. I wonder what the general public thought. Obviously it was not great for them to kill the car. I would be the "around 300HP" certainly did not help.

 

[ChrisK]

My guest at the release of this new NSX successor is similar to Ken's. I too feel it will be a 2008 model released in late 2007. My theory on this is not just what Ken talked about in terms of actual product developement, but also that Lexus said they would release their LF-A Super GT sports car in 2007. Quite possibly Honda will want to wait to see exactly what real world performance that car has and make any last minute adjustments if needed. Honda doesn't really have to worry if Lexus beats them to the market because Lexus said it would be a limited production, so even if they sell every single one that is only something like 500 units. I personally think it would be wise for Honda to wait one model year after the Lexus LF-A, because if they release the NSX successor and it can't compete with the LF-A I think the buying market and media will judge Honda pretty harshly.

 

[TC]

You might be quite surprised to find out otherwise. Come to NSXPO 2005. Let's chat there.

Ken, I hope you know that I was speaking in good fun - I should have used a smiley in my original post.

How do you know that the expectations are unrealistic, if you don't know anything about the new car?

It unrealistic for any commercial passenger car to "destroy" the likes of the new Z06 in terms of acceleration - at the top level of performance, cars are differentiated in terms of a few tenths. Unless Honda is building something like the Bugatti Veyron, then even a 500 hp NSX-II would be in the same performance league as an F430, Z06, Ford GT, GT2, etc.

 

[NetViper]

I personally think it would be wise for Honda to wait one model year after the Lexus LF-A, because if they release the NSX successor and it can't compete with the LF-A I think the buying market and media will judge Honda pretty harshly.

I don't think the LF-A is a competitor to the next NSX. Do you really think we will ever see a LF-a on a track?

 

[ChrisK]

I don't think the LF-A is a competitor to the next NSX. Do you really think we will ever see a LF-a on a track?

Doesn't matter IMHO. In fact, we do know the LF-A is not an exotic but Lexus themselves just calls it a GT Sports car. IMHO, that means it is more in competion with cars like the M5/M6, or AMG cars. However, from a public and media point of view a 2 seater Japanese Lexus sports car with a 500 HP V10 that does 0-60 possibly in under 4 seconds that sells for $100K will definately be compared directly with any offerings brought out by Acura. It may not technically be in the same class, but it will be compared together and the Acura better fair well if not beat it especially if it will be in the exotic class.

 

[docjohn]

I would'nt worry about the weight of the new car (within a few hundred pounds)If the motor is an 8 and has big hp numbers I'm sure it's torque will allow for adequate performance in a 3100 lb car.It takes too much stuff to create a car these days that will pass all safety tests and have all the other amenities we come to expect in a street car.