Meth Kit with CTSC

We have the Whipple methanol injection manifold ready for prototype testing.
Unfortunately we can't run it on the race NSX , (roll cage clearance and regulation issues)

We're looking for some one currently looking into a water injection setup or building a setup on a Whipple CTSC.

 
Locally? or would you ship it? I have water meth on a whipple
 
Well the rotors are have a screen of lubricant the water isn't your enemy here the methanol will probably effect that.
To what extent and i don't know, also keeping the blower free of "additives" gives it more room for air.

After cooling that in a special manifold is better.
 
I've been experimenting with spraying before the blower for a good part of the last 1000-2000 miles. It's effective but there's an upper limit in terms of cooling. I'm only able to get about 15-20F of cooling though i'm still experimenting with nozzle sizes. The blower heats up the water quickly and we started noticing the water was starting to cause my engine to loose power. I don't mind losing power but it was at a point where to gain another 5F of cooling required a lot of water and hence loss in power. Going to spray after the blower (with Adnan's help) and see how we shake out. Should be MUCH more efficient.

Note: If you see the article posted here a few pages back. Spraying before the blower with METH and H2O yielded ~30F of cooling delta. I'm not going to use meth so perhaps that's the variable...

In terms of spraying meth before the blower... See pics. (Though, I have a feeling these are long term effects) Not sure if this will affect the Kenne Bells/Autorotors the same.

2egdxdx.jpg


392121d1313642525-water-methanol-injection-sml-rotors-4.jpg
 
part of what causes detonation is the carbon build up in the combustion engine which does 2 things:

1. any carbon mass present in the combustion engine will raise the compression ratios
2. carbon can be a source of ignition if there is enough heat build up to resemble a red coal, for example

Water is good at removing carbon. I would look at this as a way to occasionally remove some carbon at the traffic light before a drag race, for example
 
RYU said:
I've been experimenting with spraying before the blower for a good part of the last 1000-2000 miles. It's effective but there's an upper limit in terms of cooling. I'm only able to get about 15-20F of cooling though i'm still experimenting with nozzle sizes. The blower heats up the water quickly and we started noticing the water was starting to cause my engine to loose power. I don't mind losing power but it was at a point where to gain another 5F of cooling required a lot of water and hence loss in power. Going to spray after the blower (with Adnan's help) and see how we shake out. Should be MUCH more efficient.

Note: If you see the article posted here a few pages back. Spraying before the blower with METH and H2O yielded ~30F of cooling delta. I'm not going to use meth so perhaps that's the variable...

In terms of spraying meth before the blower... See pics. (Though, I have a feeling these are long term effects) Not sure if this will affect the Kenne Bells/Autorotors the same.

2egdxdx.jpg


392121d1313642525-water-methanol-injection-sml-rotors-4.jpg
Click to expand...

Those are interesting pics. I wonder what the intended purpose of the coating (that is peeling) is?
 
L_RAO said:
Those are interesting pics. I wonder what the intended purpose of the coating (that is peeling) is?
Click to expand...

My Whipple has a coating that looks similar to the second picture (except the coating is intact). It is Teflon. From their site:
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/content.asp?PageID=85

We went to Teflon-coated rotors versus anodized rotors for better corrosion resistance and a little more efficiency.
Click to expand...

I would assume a similar purpose for the roots blowers.
 
It was HOT at the track this weekend. I went out on purpose to test how the car would perform at roughly 95-100F Ambient (maybe 120-140+ track temps). I'm running the HKS F-Con iS and spraying 100% water injection before the throttle body and the cooling was amazing. IATs were consistent at 50-60C (120-140F). The car had power all over the place and the water yielded no noticeable signs of power loss (it usually does). I reckon the 100% water might have lost me 10whp but given the cooling benefit compared to what I would have lost at high IATs otherwise, it's a huge net gain in power me thinks!

Still some improvements to make. I need a bigger water reservoir and a baffled one if possible. I noticed towards the end of my run the IATs skyrocketed to 100C. When I pulled off, the water level was low and due to the side forces in the turns the pump was sucking in lots of air and cavitating. A bigger, baffled tank, will fix that. I also need to do more minor tweaks in the F-Con's fuel trims.

Another interesting note... on the drive back home (still in the 90s F) IATs at freeway crusing was still high at around 70C (160F) off boost. I think the phenolic spacers will help lower cruising temps as well.

This is the track longevity i've been looking for in a CARB, smog friendly format. I'm quite happy.

I'm hoping with Adnan's spacers i'll be able to spray less water after the SC but yield the same cooling.
 
RYU said:
I'm hoping with Adnan's spacers i'll be able to spray less water after the SC but yield the same cooling.
Click to expand...

You will, also look to see if you can tie the pump controller to the IAT's, see if you have a trigger that can cause the pump to run when the car is above a given rpm AND a given IAT. This way during normal street driving the IAT's will stay more managed with less swings. Good to see the IAT's on track may be sorted. Once you are spraying after the blower fluid volumes being sprayed should drop by about 1/2 if I had to guess to yield similar results. If you add a little Meth to the mix you will have a kick in octane as well and should be much safer on the track.

Keep going and let us know what you find.

Dave

Dave
 
DDozier said:
You will, also look to see if you can tie the pump controller to the IAT's, see if you have a trigger that can cause the pump to run when the car is above a given rpm AND a given IAT. This way during normal street driving the IAT's will stay more managed with less swings. Good to see the IAT's on track may be sorted. Once you are spraying after the blower fluid volumes being sprayed should drop by about 1/2 if I had to guess to yield similar results. If you add a little Meth to the mix you will have a kick in octane as well and should be much safer on the track.

Keep going and let us know what you find.

Dave

Dave
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave. Your idea about tying in the IAT sensor to the spray strategy is a good one. However, the stock OEM IAT sensor is such a slow moving sensor it worries me a bit and might cause a lack of consistency. I have to do more testing to get a consistent feel for it. It "feels" like a laggy sensor compared to the open element GM sensor i'm using with the Zeitronix. The OEM sensor works well enough though but please keep the ideas coming.

I'd love to have a cold weather and hot weather solution that isn't a manual on/off switch :)
 
RYU said:
It was HOT at the track this weekend. I went out on purpose to test how the car would perform at roughly 95-100F Ambient (maybe 120-140+ track temps). I'm running the HKS F-Con iS and spraying 100% water injection before the throttle body and the cooling was amazing. IATs were consistent at 50-60C (120-140F). The car had power all over the place and the water yielded no noticeable signs of power loss (it usually does). I reckon the 100% water might have lost me 10whp but given the cooling benefit compared to what I would have lost at high IATs otherwise, it's a huge net gain in power me thinks!

Still some improvements to make. I need a bigger water reservoir and a baffled one if possible. I noticed towards the end of my run the IATs skyrocketed to 100C. When I pulled off, the water level was low and due to the side forces in the turns the pump was sucking in lots of air and cavitating. A bigger, baffled tank, will fix that. I also need to do more minor tweaks in the F-Con's fuel trims.

Another interesting note... on the drive back home (still in the 90s F) IATs at freeway crusing was still high at around 70C (160F) off boost. I think the phenolic spacers will help lower cruising temps as well.

This is the track longevity i've been looking for in a CARB, smog friendly format. I'm quite happy.

I'm hoping with Adnan's spacers i'll be able to spray less water after the SC but yield the same cooling.
Click to expand...
I'm glad to see that you are experiencing the same results as I am. It does work like I have been saying
I recently changed out my nozzle to the medium one. The car runs richer and I thought I was possibly losing power. I did this because of how hot out it is. I had the chance to play with a 458 and my friends Supercharged R8. I did many pulls from 80-160 the cooling at the top end when I was in 6th was amazing. My IAT were 135-140. Glad I listened to experienced people that meth works. People on here said it doesn't
 
DDozier said:
You will, also look to see if you can tie the pump controller to the IAT's, see if you have a trigger that can cause the pump to run when the car is above a given rpm AND a given IAT. This way during normal street driving the IAT's will stay more managed with less swings. Good to see the IAT's on track may be sorted. Once you are spraying after the blower fluid volumes being sprayed should drop by about 1/2 if I had to guess to yield similar results. If you add a little Meth to the mix you will have a kick in octane as well and should be much safer on the track.

Keep going and let us know what you find.

Dave

Dave
Click to expand...
Dave, I have one concern about spraying after the blower. Hope to hear your thoughts on this...
-Being that the runners are so short and the plenum so shallow do you think the water molecules will have enough time to atomize and cool the air enough? I see the advantage of spraying 100% water before the blower for cooling but potentially spraying a 50/50 meth after the blower but i'd really hate to have all that added complication but running some meth one day is tempting.


Blacknot said:
I'm glad to see that you are experiencing the same results as I am. It does work like I have been saying
I recently changed out my nozzle to the medium one. The car runs richer and I thought I was possibly losing power. I did this because of how hot out it is. I had the chance to play with a 458 and my friends Supercharged R8. I did many pulls from 80-160 the cooling at the top end when I was in 6th was amazing. My IAT were 135-140. Glad I listened to experienced people that meth works. People on here said it doesn't
Click to expand...
Awesome stuff! People on here don't always know what they're talking about, myself included! Does spraying meth before the blower worry you for the long term? Still read mixed feedback about this.
 
RYU said:
Dave, I have one concern about spraying after the blower. Hope to hear your thoughts on this...
-Being that the runners are so short and the plenum so shallow do you think the water molecules will have enough time to atomize and cool the air enough? I see the advantage of spraying 100% water before the blower for cooling but potentially spraying a 50/50 meth after the blower but i'd really hate to have all that added complication but running some meth one day is tempting.



Awesome stuff! People on here don't always know what they're talking about, myself included! Does spraying meth before the blower worry you for the long term? Still read mixed feedback about this.
Click to expand...
Not really. I know people who ran the meth on Jackson racing kits on B-series for extended time with no issues. I would bet the pictures you posted are from people spraying 100% meth. Also I run 40/60
meth/water. I purchased a 5 gallon jug of meth and it lasted me a year and over 10k miles. I don't driven car easy either.
 
RYU said:
Dave, I have one concern about spraying after the blower. Hope to hear your thoughts on this...
-Being that the runners are so short and the plenum so shallow do you think the water molecules will have enough time to atomize and cool the air enough? I see the advantage of spraying 100% water before the blower for cooling but potentially spraying a 50/50 meth after the blower but i'd really hate to have all that added complication but running some meth one day is tempting.
Click to expand...

Meth will be fine just stay in the 50/50 area and do not use it to tune for power just the added safety margin. The key to the spray after the blower is the size and number of nozels and their location.

The perfect place on the whipple will be on the straight part of the discharge port. Use two of the smallest nozzles you can find around 200cc/min each. I am guessing you will be spraying somewhere around 350-400cc per min to start then work up from there, A good mid plate design will house the two nozzles and allow them to be cleaned and changed without the removal of the blower, this will force them to be on the passenger side of the intake just below the blower drive shaft and sandwiched between the blower and the intake manifold, my guess is the new midplate will add .5" to .675" to the blower height and may cause some other fitment issues with the t-brace on a targe or the engine cover and may require a slightly longer belt. The smaller the nozzles, the higher the pump pressure, the finer the mist. The big issue will be time, it takes time to remove heat using water or meth, the water vapor will need time to remove heat. No matter what it will work better and use much less fluid than spraying before the blower.

Since you have the data logging ability you should consider a flow meter, either AEM or Aquamist are good units, you have to calibrate it to you logger but that is easy. They will give you a 5v output for flow rate. This will tell you exactly how much volume of water/fuel is going out the nozzle. It is a great failsafe device that you can use to trigger an alarm if the nozzles become clogged, a line breaks, you run out of fluid, or the pump fails.

I am not saying you have to have anything other than the pump and nozzle, I am sure even the most simple system will function, but if you are tracking and have the data storage than why not.
http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-428tm-turbine-flow-sensor-standalone/

Dave
 
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From my understanding, CTSC put out between 380-410hp as is. If you want more power you first need to build/prepare you stock motor to handle more than 400/410hp. I debated with Chris at SOS a few times before deciding to take mine out. I had alot of the same questions mentioned in this thread(like utilizing the meth for cooling not horsepower). Too many variables, posibilities and affects. I prefer to keep it simple and safe.

Analogy: If a fat kid buys a pair of air jordan's to play like jordan, he 1st need to loose weight so he can fly/dunk.

Best advice I give is build your car one time for your application in a practical way only to improve upon.
 
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It seems like the most common failure mode on mild boosted stock engines with OEM internals are the top ring lands. The OEM spec for the top ring gap is anywhere between 0.010 to 0.016". That's a big spread, and makes a difference when you start boosting them and increasing combustion temps. If the gap on your OEM top ring is on the low side of the spec, the ring gap may close and more stress is placed on the piston ring lands causing them to fail.

I think the meth spray is a prudent thing to do in these mild boosted scenarios to bring down cylinder combustion temps, and would target a minimum 30/70 meth/water ratio.

Personally, I would want to measure the injected flow rate at all times, even though I was not adding the meth to take advantage in fuel and ignition trims. This and the measured IAT would be good to know, especially if tracking the car.

My $0.02.

Dave
 
You mean this teaser? :)

1006060_10151689629451588_1594813231_n.jpg


What you can't see is the bored out orifice for the injection nozzle plumbing on the supercharger plate. In the heat and when not under boost my IATs can reach 75-95C very easily. It did so yesterday. However, with my current setup of spraying before the TB, the temps get as low as 50-60C. I'm hoping with this plate I lower the overall heatsoak and am able to spray less and cool more. It will be a bit of a trial and error while I hone in on the proper nozzle size.
 
Had another impromptu track day today. Water injection has been working great. Here's what I posted in another thread.


----------------------------------------------------------------
Here's my latest data points from my most recent track events this year.


- Streets of Willow ambient 110F/38C. With water injection resulted in IATs of 125F/52C. Delta 15F/14C
- Buttonwillow ambient 75F/24C. With water injection resulted in IATs of 100F/42C. Delta 25F/18C <<<---- This was today


I've been logging some amazing results especially today. I easily record deltas of 100F with the water injection turned off so only a 25F delta is more than I expected. The interesting surprise is I logged .5-1psi of increased boost today. My Autorotor typically maxes out at 7.1lbs in a typical sea level day. I was hitting near 8lbs of boost today at Buttonwillow. I recorded 38C of IAT at the time my boost is at it's highest. The water chilled air may have had a lot to do with it. Had to retune that section of the fuel map because didn't really expect it! I also thought the additional water would kill my HP but it seemed to have power for days. Car felt great all day long.


What's interesting is when it's off boost and the IAT begins to heat soak. I'll see cruising IATs of 60-65C.
 

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