Meth Kit with CTSC

[RYU]

thread resurrection!

I'm getting ready to monitor IATs this summer. Hoping to find a good location for the sensor I asked about on this thread http://nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=157387

I've been told, from a trusted source, that during track conditions here in the hot deserts, IATs get up as high as 280degs @ 8000rpm in 2nd gear on the high boost setup.

 

[L_RAO]

If heat soak is a concern, have you thought about have the intake manifold coated, like with a Swain Tech coating?

 

[RYU]

If heat soak is a concern, have you thought about have the intake manifold coated, like with a Swain Tech coating?

Just for a brief while. The intake manifold is only about 1.5" thick. I'm not convinced its very effective in the the CTSC application especially for the $ roi but i'm eager to be proven wrong :smile:

 

[Blacknot]

I'm getting my car tuned on Wednesday with the Meth injection. Seems like its the best way to go with a comptech

 

[RYU]

So I was ready to go down the path of the AEM EMS and just be done with it.. however, i'm a glutton for punishment so I started doing more research on the latest meth kits.

It seems Snow Performance has some pretty advanced offerings. Mark at Dali agrees too.

I'm looking at this kit now and inquiring what's the tuning process like.
http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=76

I'm now looking at having the meth kit on full-time and tuning for like I would an FIC but less the manipulations to the timing map of course. I will use the added octane from the meth with the side effect of cooling the IATs. Their controller seems quite robust. It will just require me to refill once very 2-3 tank fillups - I can live with that. Also, if I run out of Meth it will simply go back to the stock Comptech fueling provisions.

Glad to hear opinions gents.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Are you saying you are using this with the stock fueling system?

 

[RYU]

Yes, but with thorough testing. I really don't need to be blowing up my motor anytime soon.

 

[RYU]

I did a test run after getting part of my sensor package installed. Thought i'd share my results. I'm not ready for a track session yet it seems but please feel free to comment. I'm no engine tuning expert :redface:

This was a 1-2-3 gear pull. Notice the shift points/peaks in the blue RPM graph
@ WOT
70 deg ambient @ Sea Level (i'm 2 miles from the beach)
Wideband 02 installed after a set of 300cell high flow cat until my exhaust system is done and it will be upstream properly.
The IAT was already 140deg after a 20 min easy warm-up drive around town.
Walbro 255
Stock Injectors
Factory Comptech Fueling solutions in place.
Low Boost Autorotor 1.7L @ 6.5-7lbs (not shown)

It seems i'm not running too lean which is nice but after the 3rd gear pull my IATs were already at 192*. I can certainly believe the over 230+ deg folks have mentioned during hot track conditions. Will be doing a more thorough canyon drive tomorrow. Let's see where my temps end up (if i've got the guts to keep it that hot!)

Sorry for the small image. I'm having issues with the compression.

Thank you Dave for recommending Zeitronix. That's some cool stuff for very little $$ and made in the USA!

 

[Blacknot]

I was back on the dyno yesterday playing with my car. Spoke to my tuner some more about the water/meth now that i have had it on and had a chance to monitor the IAT. The hottest temps i have encountered outside are low 80's. My IAT yesterday hit 160. Thats as high as it has gone. Normal driving still seeing 135-145. On the dyno i put my hand on the supercharger and it was definitely much cooler than it has been in the past. Not very hot but still fairly warm. My tuner told me that he feels the water/meth is working very well. He also mentioned that there are things im not seeing such as combustion temps and egt's. I mentioned there has been speculation on how effective the water/meth works and he isnt sure why people cant see results. I have to agree. I dont think it cools as well as a nice intercooler but in my case i really dont have that option and for $400 vs $2500 its a great value. I really notice the results the longer i stay in the gas. 5th gear pulls hard now that im not getting heat soaked. I'm running 80/20 water meth and its not spraying a lot. I did a 200 mile poker run where i used about a full tank of gas and was spaying most of the time. I only used 3/4 of a gallon of the watrer/meth

 

[TURBO2GO]

Blacknot did you do any measurements before meth? What's your setup? What is the meth kit, what is the EMS you are using? what is the supercharger, boost, etc.

Ryu what gauge are you using?

 

[RYU]

Blacknot did you do any measurements before meth? What's your setup? What is the meth kit, what is the EMS you are using? what is the supercharger, boost, etc.

Ryu what gauge are you using?

There's a thread Blacknot started that answer all of this. It's in the FI section I believe.

I'm using the Zeitronix setup but used a 1/8" GM IAT sensor that I found (mentioned on another thread).

 

[Blacknot]

I have some new findings. I took my car up to the mountains (deals gap) for 5 days and had an unfortunate problem. My supercharger pulley had 2 bolts back out and the pulley broke off. I was able to get it running by bypassing the charger and ran the car NA all weekend. So i was able to monitor the IAT without the blower running. The first day before the car broke i ran the dragon several times and on this road you really dont use much boost and the water/meth only sprays when the ECU sees boost. The temp outside was inthe 50's and my IAT hit 177 since the meth wasnt spraying. Normally when the meth sprays the highest i have seen in these temps were 140 degrees. Here comes the interesting part. I was seeing IAT when the car was ice cold and never stopped or shut off off around 100 degrees in weather of 50 degrees. If i shut the car off and let it sit the charger would heat soak from the heat of the block. Once i started the car my IAT was 135 degrees and stayed that temp for quite a while which is funny since thats what i normally run with the blower hooked up. I noticed this happened several times. Then on my way back to FL i was running 80-90mph on the highway and once heatsoaked my IAT was 115-120 but mostly 120 degrees. This is only 15 degrees colder than when the charger is hooked up. I found that the blower just holds so much heat and with hardly any airflow over the engine you cant seem to cool it. In all conditions when i spray the water/meth i notice a 10-25 degree drop in IAT. I have found this kit works for sure BUT its really hard to fight the heatsoak of the blower and actually cool the blower enough to really drop the IAT. I think this is why people have had doubt of how effective this kit is. The problem is unlike an intercooler you are only cooling when you are spraying the mix. Im very happy with the results since i dont have any other options. I think the best thing is to have a scoop off the rear hatch to feed air to the top of the blower to cool it. I'm just not sure i want to do that because of looks. After all of my findings so far im pleased and happy with the kit. Heatsoak is a major issue even in the cold and even with the blower not running. Now i got to compare over 4 days the difference in temps and it was very surprising

 

[RYU]

Very interesting observation. Thanks for sharing this. A few folks have mentioned on here that the sensor has a tendency to heat soak. I believe the CTSC configuration is simply prone to this condition. I wonder if a phenolic intake manifold gaskets would help with this type of heat soak.

Loc mentioned to me he's in the process of looking into this.

I also found this http://tech.mirage-performance.com/teflon-insulating-gasket.html

 

[Blacknot]

Very interesting observation. Thanks for sharing this. A few folks have mentioned on here that the sensor has a tendency to heat soak. I believe the CTSC configuration is simply prone to this condition. I wonder if a phenolic intake manifold gaskets would help with this type of heat soak.

Loc mentioned to me he's in the process of looking into this.

I also found this http://tech.mirage-performance.com/teflon-insulating-gasket.html

I have used those on my cars before and they work well. It would be great if someone made one. I don't have the skills to make one of my own. Lol

 

[racer9x]

Very interesting observation. Thanks for sharing this. A few folks have mentioned on here that the sensor has a tendency to heat soak. I believe the CTSC configuration is simply prone to this condition. I wonder if a phenolic intake manifold gaskets would help with this type of heat soak.

Loc mentioned to me he's in the process of looking into this.

I also found this http://tech.mirage-performance.com/teflon-insulating-gasket.html

Any updates of you're progress?

 

[RYU]

Any updates of you're progress?

Parts are sitting on the shelf waiting to be installed. ETA with a proper tune and meth in place sometime around Q1 2013.

 

[RYU]

Progress update.

I decided to spray 100% water before the throttle body. LMR is spraying in the intake plenum after the CTSC and he's getting encouraging results. I'm going to take a slightly more conservative first pass and spray before the TB. There is data in the interwebs that support IAT temps going down to as low as 140 deg spraying before the TB so that would be enough for me.

I've been monitoring the temps and have about 1 yr of year-round data logging. The temps tend to hover around ~98 to 140 degs during normal driving when below 80 degs ambient. The first WOT pull will creep that up to around 165 degs however I've done WOT pulls on colder days that peak IAT at around 140 degs and the AFRs still look great. This is still with the Comptech fueling devices. This leads me to believe that water alone is good enough to spray with the stock CTSC if it's tuned properly to not "overcool". Though the risk of "overcooling" here in Socal is small. Perhaps in the colder states... I am also of the opinion that spraying 100% water will likely reduce some power if you go too aggressive with it. I have to find that balance.

I also liked that if I do run out of water it will still continue to heatsoak as normal.

This process has opened my eyes to engine tuning in general and I've decided to upgrade to the HKS F-Con iS piggyback to add more resolution to the tune as well as implement better RDX injectors. The stock Comptech fueling solution is just not that good. It works but the tune can be significantly improved.

Next Step:
I need to install a MAF sensor to better calibrate the water mist. It's running off of boost right now but boost on a supercharger does not come on progressively so it makes for a poor input parameter. I started a thread here. Any help perhaps?

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/171365-MAF-sensor-install-on-the-NSX

 

[Blacknot]

Progress update.

I decided to spray 100% water before the throttle body. LMR is spraying in the intake plenum after the CTSC and he's getting encouraging results. I'm going to take a slightly more conservative first pass and spray before the TB. There is data in the interwebs that support IAT temps going down to as low as 140 deg spraying before the TB so that would be enough for me.

I've been monitoring the temps and have about 1 yr of year-round data logging. The temps tend to hover around ~98 to 140 degs during normal driving when below 80 degs ambient. The first WOT pull will creep that up to around 165 degs however I've done WOT pulls on colder days that peak IAT at around 140 degs and the AFRs still look great. This is still with the Comptech fueling devices. This leads me to believe that water alone is good enough to spray with the stock CTSC if it's tuned properly to not "overcool". Though the risk of "overcooling" here in Socal is small. Perhaps in the colder states... I am also of the opinion that spraying 100% water will likely reduce some power if you go too aggressive with it. I have to find that balance.

I also liked that if I do run out of water it will still continue to heatsoak as normal.

This process has opened my eyes to engine tuning in general and I've decided to upgrade to the HKS F-Con iS piggyback to add more resolution to the tune as well as implement better RDX injectors. The stock Comptech fueling solution is just not that good. It works but the tune can be significantly improved.

Next Step:
I need to install a MAF sensor to better calibrate the water mist. It's running off of boost right now but boost on a supercharger does not come on progressively so it makes for a poor input parameter. I started a thread here. Any help perhaps?

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/171365-MAF-sensor-install-on-the-NSX

you should spray some meth to help with cooling. 100% water is not most effective. Have done a good amount of research on what mixture is ideal for cooling. What I have found is 40% meth 60% water is ideal.

 

[RYU]

you should spray some meth to help with cooling. 100% water is not most effective. Have done a good amount of research on what mixture is ideal for cooling. What I have found is 40% meth 60% water is ideal.

I might end up there! I'm going to try 100/0, then 80/20, and probably down to 50/50 water/meth.

I don't want to be dependent on meth so i'll monitor how my AFR is with the meth solution but on the non-meth tune. I expect some undesired richness in that formula.

I'm also still at low boost so i'm expecting the incremental cooling the water will add will not be as great as if I was at high boost.

 

[Blacknot]

I might end up there! I'm going to try 100/0, then 80/20, and probably down to 50/50 water/meth.

I don't want to be dependent on meth so i'll monitor how my AFR is with the meth solution but on the non-meth tune. I expect some undesired richness in that formula.

I'm also still at low boost so i'm expecting the incremental cooling the water will add will not be as great as if I was at high boost.

No matter what its going to run rich. I'm running 10.8-11.0 right now while spraying. I didnt want to lean it out since my car is tuned perfectly without the water/meth

 

[RYU]

How are your EGTs?

------------------------------------------

Ron, just thinking about this a little. How did you notice that 60/40 water/meth was the best mix for you? I'm reading conflicting info about this from white papers claiming that it's the water that provides the cooling and the meth provides the octane boost. I also read that 100% meth provides virtually no cooling alone.

Though, my own common sense tells me that adding a little bit of meth improves the volatility of the fluid and allows it to evaporate faster and therefore atomize into the compressed air better.

You have first hand experience so your thoughts are invaluable for me.

 

[turbolence46]

I'm really enjoying this read, I'm installing my nozzle this week before the my tune on my high boost ctsc and my tuner prefers me to not run meth :/ ... I think more so he doesnt want to be liable if we tune with it. How much do you think 80/20 adds to the AFRs? What's the sweet spot for max cooling without going overly rich?

 

[cptnsx]

There's a thread Blacknot started that answer all of this. It's in the FI section I believe.

I'm using the Zeitronix setup but used a 1/8" GM IAT sensor that I found (mentioned on another thread).

This is very important. The SOS setup with the intercooler uses the same sensor but mounted in a different location. The GM IAT is an open element sensor and I believe it reads higher than stock. Therefore comparisons between reading from the stock sensor and the GM IAT (which is the also the AEM IAT sensor) is meaningless.

 

[Blacknot]

How are your EGTs?

------------------------------------------

Ron, just thinking about this a little. How did you notice that 60/40 water/meth was the best mix for you? I'm reading conflicting info about this from white papers claiming that it's the water that provides the cooling and the meth provides the octane boost. I also read that 100% meth provides virtually no cooling alone.

Though, my own common sense tells me that adding a little bit of meth improves the volatility of the fluid and allows it to evaporate faster and therefore atomize into the compressed air better.

You have first hand experience so your thoughts are invaluable for me.

Airplanes use water/meth also. 60/40 is the mix used in aviation. The water does disapait heat. You will notice when you mix the water with the meth the jug gets hot from a reaction. When spraying
under high pressure the opposite happens and it gets cold. Most guys run 50/50 because you make the best power on it. For cooling you want more water but the water can only absorb so much heat.

 

[1qwknsx]

I have a 94 nsx running ctsc autorotor with 5 gallon of meth/water in the trunk. Aem 2 controlling everything with 2 sets of peramiters just incase I run out of meth. Im currently running 1 gallon of water and 4 gallons of meth. So should I be running 50/50 instead to get the best ballance? The nsx is incredibly quick and injection starts when boost hits 6 psi and continues till Im not using boost. I also have the high boost pully. My car was the one that dynomike at autowave put together back in 2011 and its been working flawless ever since. I live in sacramento where summer days can benifit from reduced AIT.