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Some interesting information here : http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2187
Meth Kit with CTSC
- Thread starter RYU
- Start date
Post #2 and #3 are excellent. I'll have to read the entire thread later tonight. I wish someone would cut/paste the cliffnotes here from that thread.
So according to them 100% water still has the best heat absorption but the best of both worlds is a 50/50 mix. Evidently meth evaporates too quickly and turns into latent heat once in the combustion chamber which makes sense.
I'm looking at cooling only and do not want/need the added octane booster so perhaps 100% water is the right solution for me. It's safe enough to start with at least.
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I'm also starting to lean towards 100 percent water, but I'm also thinking about 80/20 only because the quality of gasoline can very a bit and the 20% might make up the difference in general; who knows? lol
I think on this thread we discussed pros/cons of spraying before the blower vs. after the blower. I will be spraying before the blower to ensure equal distribution to each cylinder. Again, my approach is to take the most conservative, but high yielding approach as possible. If I run after the blower...the runner length is so super short that there's no way I can mount the nozzle to where I feel each cylinder will receive equal amounts of water/meth. At 7lbs of boost... I don't know if it matters really that one cylinder can potentially receive 15% more water/meth vs. another. It's when you run high boost that all the little things become bigger issues such as this.
I also don't want to run the risk of tarnishing the protective seal on the rotors of the SC if I spray meth before the blower. Meth is a harsh chemical so for that benefit in "safety" it's just not worth it to have to rebuild the SC (which no one knows of a reputable company to do so). There is some debate on this topic and the destruction of the coating probably doesn't occur for many tens of thousands of miles. I'll be lucky if I can log 50k miles on the NSX in the next 8yrs so the practicality of this issue can be challenged also.
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I was reminded of this again from reading thru that link.
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I'm also strongly considering moving RDX injectors myself (I'm already on the SiR Prelude injectors) because of the higher capacity, better spray pattern, etc. Would probably pair with AEM EMS for engine management, unless that tuning with OEM ECU project nets results...though I'm wondering a little if I could just turn down the fuel pressure 10% (for illustration, not real number) and use the RDX injectors with rest of CTSC fueling.
Spraying water also seems like a great idea but maybe not at the same time though having EMS would make it a lot easier.
latzke - after all this research i'm no longer in the mood to try to improve on the factory CTSC fueling system. It reminds me of a carburetor vs. EFI setup. A very well tuned carb works great but once you start making tweaks it has no ability to make dynamic tuning adjustments. I just want more resolution and more ability to the tune especially in the middle rpm bands.
The RDX injectors are 410cc at something like 36psi (i'm making this up because I don't remember). If pushed to 60psi (stock RDX is at 57psi based on my research) then it flows upwards of 500cc. Via this inference, you'll essentially be running them at it's proper operating parameter therefore maximing the benefits of it's superior spray pattern... IN THEORY.
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Just real quick back of the napkin math.
The RDX has a 2.3L 4 cyl boosting at 13-14psi. That's .58L per cylinder for one RDX injector.
CTSC NSX 3.0 6 cyl boost at a lower 6-9psi. That's only .5L per cylinder per RDX injector boosting lower though at a higher rpm. There's obviously a lot of other things to consider but I'm betting there's still a lot of headroom leftover before maxing out these injectors.
The RDX injectors are 410cc at something like 36psi (i'm making this up because I don't remember). If pushed to 60psi (stock RDX is at 57psi based on my research) then it flows upwards of 500cc. Via this inference, you'll essentially be running them at it's proper operating parameter therefore maximing the benefits of it's superior spray pattern... IN THEORY.
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Just real quick back of the napkin math.
The RDX has a 2.3L 4 cyl boosting at 13-14psi. That's .58L per cylinder for one RDX injector.
CTSC NSX 3.0 6 cyl boost at a lower 6-9psi. That's only .5L per cylinder per RDX injector boosting lower though at a higher rpm. There's obviously a lot of other things to consider but I'm betting there's still a lot of headroom leftover before maxing out these injectors.
If you want to keep the stock comptech stuff I believe I answered your question in post #217!
FWIW, I have no problem running 100% water with the stock comptech stuff. Just try to keep it no lower than 130-140F IAT. I can't speak to the impact if cooled any lower than that. As with anything you need to tune the mist spray controller. To do it right on a twin screw supercharger like the Whipple/Autorotor you need some kind of progressive input like a MAF sensor (not to be confused with a MAP sensor).
I just want much more out of my tune than what the stock CT stuff can provide. I plan to drive the sh*t out of this car at the track and don't want to worry about this or that...
I plan on removing my blower soon to add the plastic gaskets. I will inspect it again to check the coating. I have run it about 10k miles and sprayed a good amount through it and see how the coating is holding up. Also a shop by me does direct port for the meth by adding 6 injectors into the manifold. The problem is with that I would need a 5 gallon tank since it would suck the water/meth pretty quickly. I'm happy with my results so far
Adnan has some pretty sweet products. I'm waiting to install his phelonic shields too. Which ones are you using?
Let us know how it turns out. I'm sure your impellers will be fine.
Once I have the thermal manifold upgrade kit for the CTSC ready I'll be looking into injection kit for the CTSC
Good because I just sold 40 of them.
Are you making one for the whipple also?
Plan is do them for both.
Let me know when it s done so I can order one
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Same
When I hear "phenolic material" I think of a printed circuit board. Picturing that material as a gasket I wonder about it breaking down over time from heat and pressure, bits falling into the cylinders, and ensuing badness.
Can you share more information about the properties of the phenolic material you use. Has it gone through anything like accelerated reliability testing to replicate the conditions it will face and be in after 30 years of use in this application?
As a reference, FR-1 is rated to 130c/266f and FR-2 is rated to 105c/221f...but I don't know about their mechanical properties.
Can you share more information about the properties of the phenolic material you use. Has it gone through anything like accelerated reliability testing to replicate the conditions it will face and be in after 30 years of use in this application?
As a reference, FR-1 is rated to 130c/266f and FR-2 is rated to 105c/221f...but I don't know about their mechanical properties.
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I'm not using it as a gasket, there are seperate gasket layers bonded to it.
Quotes from the thread over in the vendor section:
The specific phenolic material we use is used in numerous race car applications for quite some time, I specifically import the material from a specialist supplier to ensure quality.
I'll try to make a mock-up monday on a whipple setup
Quotes from the thread over in the vendor section:
The specific phenolic material we use is used in numerous race car applications for quite some time, I specifically import the material from a specialist supplier to ensure quality.
I'll try to make a mock-up monday on a whipple setup
A quick question,
What type of injection nozzle do you guys prefer to use?
Would you prefer a certain connection thread for the feed line?
What type of injection nozzle do you guys prefer to use?
Would you prefer a certain connection thread for the feed line?
Any high quality "super mist" nozzle from Coolingmist or Snow Performance will be fine I think. Many of us can't use the high pressure unit from Aquamist there in the UK. You will need to provide an option for sizes though. Coolingmist makes it easy and provides sizes based on HP like 200hp, 300hp, 400hp, 500+, etc.
NPT! I think in the 1/8" or 1/4" size (I can't remember at the moment). That's the most common one I see.
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Adnan, the problem i'm having right now, especially for us CTSC guys, is how to gradually deliver the water and or water/meth. I bought a MAF sensor to retrofit into my NSX since using a Boost/MAP sensor is not a good input for gradual delivery thru the power band.
I'm currently also spraying before the throttle body to take a more conservative route. I've seen data where spraying before the TB vs. after is only about 10-15deg hotter. It's virtually negligible. My own testing will confirm this.
NPT would be 1/8. (personally i prefer metric but this would be up to the customer)
I'm working on a few designs one would have a single feed line and internal channels within the "injection manifold" to a multipoint setup.
I'll be having a discussion with tomorrow with the machinist and material supplier regarding technicalities.
Multipoint setup would make for a even spray pattern with multiple small nozzles to create a even spray in the supercharger outlet.
As for the injectors there seem to be a few versions many of them don't have clear technical details.
I'm looking in to a different setup retrofitting motorcycle carburetor jets which i can order in 0.001 inch increments (0.02 mm).
I can look into supplying you with Aquamist setups should be a problem at all.
Regarding the ratio issue.
I'm personally not a fan of MAF sensors they inhibit flow and are prone to failing I see this all day long on Subaru and Maserati.
You should look in to using the RPM feed to setup up the pressure or number of injectors.
Other possibly easier but rather crude way would be to run it of the V-Tec sensor basically running to jet runs.
A pneumatic setup might be a idea (thinking along the lines of old vacuum advance ignition systems)
I'm working on a few designs one would have a single feed line and internal channels within the "injection manifold" to a multipoint setup.
I'll be having a discussion with tomorrow with the machinist and material supplier regarding technicalities.
Multipoint setup would make for a even spray pattern with multiple small nozzles to create a even spray in the supercharger outlet.
As for the injectors there seem to be a few versions many of them don't have clear technical details.
I'm looking in to a different setup retrofitting motorcycle carburetor jets which i can order in 0.001 inch increments (0.02 mm).
I can look into supplying you with Aquamist setups should be a problem at all.
Regarding the ratio issue.
I'm personally not a fan of MAF sensors they inhibit flow and are prone to failing I see this all day long on Subaru and Maserati.
You should look in to using the RPM feed to setup up the pressure or number of injectors.
Other possibly easier but rather crude way would be to run it of the V-Tec sensor basically running to jet runs.
A pneumatic setup might be a idea (thinking along the lines of old vacuum advance ignition systems)
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I guess if you would like to provide the plumbing to the nozzle it wouldn't matter if you sold it with metric or NPT nozzles. NPT is the standard here in the US from what i've seen so for your US customers it would be easier to source parts (in case you get run over by a bus or something). The popular kits i've seen all use high grade 1/8" hard plastic tubing rated at +300psi so all you would need to do is provide a fitting to receive this hose from the my pump/checkvalve via a connector like this.
or better >>> 
Of course, all this is dependent on overall cost. I hope this won't break the bank
Keep in mind that the distance and volume in between the intake plenum and the runners are very very short. If you sprayed after the supercharger the efficiency of how quickly the water molecules can dissipate heat will be compromised. The water molecules need some time to cool the air. I trust your judgement since you probably have a CTSC intake plenum on-hand to see for yourself.
In regards to the delivery input method. My tuner and I will build a map in the HKS F-Con that combines both boost and rpm parameters. This map will dictate the progressive delivery of the spray. On the other hand, I also received my MAF sensor today. Just looking at it the sensor blocks about 5-8% of the air flow and that sucks. I still think it's a great way to acquire a progressive 0-5v signal but it's good to know they have been unreliable for you. I will note that.
Plan A. Try the MAF in the next couple of weeks.
Plan B. Create the Boost/RPM map in the F-Con to input into the meth controller.
We talk about this here.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/171365-MAF-sensor-install-on-the-NSX
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btw.. Aquamist, even though they're superior, is out of the question for me. I don't see anyone using that here either. It's complicated and expensive.
Of course, all this is dependent on overall cost. I hope this won't break the bank
Keep in mind that the distance and volume in between the intake plenum and the runners are very very short. If you sprayed after the supercharger the efficiency of how quickly the water molecules can dissipate heat will be compromised. The water molecules need some time to cool the air. I trust your judgement since you probably have a CTSC intake plenum on-hand to see for yourself.
In regards to the delivery input method. My tuner and I will build a map in the HKS F-Con that combines both boost and rpm parameters. This map will dictate the progressive delivery of the spray. On the other hand, I also received my MAF sensor today. Just looking at it the sensor blocks about 5-8% of the air flow and that sucks. I still think it's a great way to acquire a progressive 0-5v signal but it's good to know they have been unreliable for you. I will note that.
Plan A. Try the MAF in the next couple of weeks.
Plan B. Create the Boost/RPM map in the F-Con to input into the meth controller.
We talk about this here.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/171365-MAF-sensor-install-on-the-NSX
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btw.. Aquamist, even though they're superior, is out of the question for me. I don't see anyone using that here either. It's complicated and expensive.
Update,
I've head a quick discussion with the machine shop, right now the multipoint injection with single feed line is the best option.
That being said the part will be using some unconventional materials to stop heatsoak.
Distance between injector and runner is rather tricky that's the first thing that i noted (i made a mock up in my office cylinder head + whipple ctsc intake manifold)
There is only one option for the manifold injectors, add more smaller injectors so the spray a fine mist over the full area.
Prototype now can run equal nozzle or staggred nozzle.
Potentially I can design it as such so you can run multiple sets of nozzles (large and small) so that you can change up spray pattern and volume.
I've head a quick discussion with the machine shop, right now the multipoint injection with single feed line is the best option.
That being said the part will be using some unconventional materials to stop heatsoak.
Distance between injector and runner is rather tricky that's the first thing that i noted (i made a mock up in my office cylinder head + whipple ctsc intake manifold)
There is only one option for the manifold injectors, add more smaller injectors so the spray a fine mist over the full area.
Prototype now can run equal nozzle or staggred nozzle.
Potentially I can design it as such so you can run multiple sets of nozzles (large and small) so that you can change up spray pattern and volume.
- Joined
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Sweet, keep us posted
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