Meth Kit with CTSC
- Thread starter RYU
- Start date
lol! Indeed
I just stated my observation because one of the assumptions in this thread is that the factory ECU will run the car super rich, retard timing, resulting in a drop in HP when IATs are high. That appears to be exactly the case for my car. It's no surprise people were getting passed at the track after heat soaking. Again, this is all heresay until I can provide actual data. I get that. FWIW, I've been boosting it everywhere at sea level but that's for short stints on mixed street/fwy driving. My mpg still hovers around 20-22mpg (25+ w/o CTSC).
I'm excited to figure out my gauge package so I begin to log this stuff. It's a $1k+ decision though so I want to get it right :redface:. Realistically, it might take me a while to decide.
I hope some other folks can chime in with their observations as well.
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I have the 6lb comptech sc would I need bigger injectors to run the Meth kit since its making 30-40 more whp?
lol! Indeed
I just stated my observation because one of the assumptions in this thread is that the factory ECU will run the car super rich, retard timing, resulting in a drop in HP when IATs are high. That appears to be exactly the case for my car. It's no surprise people were getting passed at the track after heat soaking. Again, this is all heresay until I can provide actual data. I get that. FWIW, I've been boosting it everywhere at sea level but that's for short stints on mixed street/fwy driving. My mpg still hovers around 20-22mpg (25+ w/o CTSC).
I'm excited to figure out my gauge package so I begin to log this stuff. It's a $1k+ decision though so I want to get it right :redface:. Realistically, it might take me a while to decide.
I hope some other folks can chime in with their observations as well.
Have you gotten any closer? I like the dashdaq but that tiny screen kills it for me. Did you read the ipad ipod thread I had in electronics? EAC is doing a Galaxy Tab in a nav pod.
Not sure I understand your question but you must be talking about fuel injectors not the meth spray injector. There's no direct correlation between Meth and fuel injectors. A good EMS can compensate for some variation in sizing for both.
Lots of research later... still no optimal solution that fits my needs perfectly. I'm leaning towards a zietronix lcd stealth display but it's all preference.
Finding the perfect gauge setup (and sensor location placement) is a huge PITA i've come to realize.
Yes i was talking about the fuel injectors. I bought the car witht he CTSC on it and looked on comptechs website and it doesnt say what injectors the kit came with so i didnt know if they were big enough to support the extra power i would be making by adding the meth kit
They don't come with injectors. They use the stock ones. I don't know if the meth kit would require that to change, I asked the same question.
What are you using to data log? How about alerts? So far the Dashdaq does that for me paired up with a Zeitronix alert system and sensors. If only the Dashdaq had a composite video out of some type then I could display it to a 7" screen that doesn't look as god awful as the dashdaq. However, when thinking of going down this path... it makes more sense to spend a little more to integrate this with the AEM EMS. It's a slippery slope...
My other choice is to stealth mount a small LCD screen somewhere with just the bare essential 4 sensor parameters. This will be plan B.
There's really no one slam dunk option
:frown::redface:Darn... this really belongs on a new thread I guess.
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BTW... for anyone still following this thread...we had another hot canyon run this wknd. It didn't heatsoak as bad as last time but I wasn't driving it nearly as hard either. It did sputter for a microsecond when I did push it after a few long 100mph 3rd gear pulls. I'm not sure wtf that was all about. I'm hoping that was just a hickup and the stock ECU was seeing really really high IATs and retarded the timing so much it made it sputter. I *really* need to start datalogging. All this guess work is killing me. Anyway, I might just get some cheapy AEM/SPA/PLX gauges temporarily so at least I know what the car is doing. I'm not going to push it anymore until I do so. I don't want to do a stroker motor build that bad! lol
First of all if you've read through this entire thread you will know that haphazardly adding a Meth kit to the stock comptech fueling system can be disastrous.
I'm using the meth to augment the fuel system by cooling down the intake charge temps but it will be a delicate and heavily monitored process especially if I don't go with a FIC or EMS. I don't want to rely on the meth just because it also increases the octane rating which in turn allows me to up the timing prior to detonation. I just want that extra safety buffer. The fuel system (i.e. Fuel Injectors) is a bit of a separate issue which is why I really don't understand your question that you're correlating meth and fuel injectors directly. You will also see in this thread that adding meth/water alone doesn't always add power (well, not a lot of power) but will most certainly cool IATs depending on how much you're spraying. So i'm just looking into it to prevent the LOSS of power from heatsoak.
The experts can correct me but it's more that Meth/Water has a positive effect on detonation, timing, and IATs. Fuel is more a function of air density (boost). Higher boost requires more gas and possibly less compression and less timing depending on your tune. Then again cooler IATs from the meth will create denser air. Over your head? it's over mine.. which is why I will gladly pay for good tuner time.
You should talk to a good tuner and let him/her know your goals for the system and what's your threshold for safety.
Your stock low boost CTSC uses the factory OEM (250cc?) injectors from Honda. Only the high boost kit came with higher flow injectors but who knows what the previous owner did.
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Then get a fuel management system and more importantly get a good tuner.
Initially when I started the thread I simply wanted to prevent heat soak and the resulting loss in power. I'm perfectly happy with 350hp and be at 180deg IATs all day long. Oh, and still be smog legal.
If you guys are looking into discussing "more air needs more fuel..." then the recipe for success on that is easy.
Again, i'm no expert!
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If you follow the CARB certification to the letter then any changes to the "kit" will nullify the certificate. However, in real-world practice the smog tech isn't really going to care if your injectors are different as long as it will pass the sniffer and you point him to the CARB sticker.
Keep in mind.. if you mess with injector sizing you should retune the RRFPR.
I'm with you on using meth just to cool. But when you cool IAT's by 100 degrees, you are seriously changing the need for fuel. I know you are fine with an AEM and injectors, I am trying to figure out what can be done legaly on a OBDII car. With a FIC for example... can the factory injectors be used.
For one thing... my threshold for how much I want to cool the IATs with the factory CT fueling provisions is more like cooling by 50 to maybe 75 deg. 180degs of IAT is still on the hot side but i'm ok with that. At 180 degs you shouldn't really change the need for fuel. 100 degs of delta puts you around 100-130 degs of IAT. That will up the timing issued by the factory ECU a lot more than i'm comfortable with unless i'm on race gas...maybe. At that low of temps then maybe you'll want more fuel to create more power.. but can your internals really handle that?
There's no way i'd go that far w/o at least a good tune on the FIC to compensate for the timing. My pocket book and balls just aren't big enough for that.
EDIT: Again, this is also why I asked about a meth/water solution that is triggered by not only boost but also by IAT temps. I don't want the meth to come on only under boost but also under really hot IAT conditions. Mac_Attack provided a really interesting and cheap solution to trigger this but I have not had a chance to look into it more closely.
EDIT 2: I missed your last question. Yes, you can certainly use the factory injectors with the FIC. You're just at the limits of the flow rates/duty cycles of the factory injectors. You also have to run them at 90+psi which is A LOT and risk injector lockup probably. I'm actually considering going with an EMS just so I can run bigger injectors so i'm not maxing out the stockers even while still low boost. Guys, this is all a question of how much margin if safety you want. Lots of these combinations will "work" and it's been proven to work for many years. I've come to the conclusion though that most guys with the stock-as-can-be CTSC don't drive their cars as hard as some of us do or else this heat soak issue would have been a more prevalent problem.
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Thank you for your help and response. I was planning on going with AEM Standalone if i run the Meth kit.
It would have saved me a lot of typing if you had mentioned that in the first place
With a good tune you will be faster than me!
Then you will begetting injectors and a pump.
Gents - just fyi... after trying to think thru this from many different angles i'm leaning towards a full on AEM EMS. Here are my reasons.
* A proper tune should still pass CA smog
* I can use bigger injectors (RC500) at the factory fuel rail pressure with the factory pressure regulator and a Walbro 255
* Keep it at low boost but still achieve a stout 340-370hp
* But most importantly keep the AFR correct all throughout the power band. The RRFPR is either rich or lean up top or down below depending on where you're at in the RPMs.
Unfortunately, this was the most expensive way to go but i'm convinced it's the optimal setup. Wish I would have thought this thru better before!
In terms of the heat soak... I'm hopeful that a proper tune via the EMS will make it a bit less of a problem. The Meth/water solution is still on the table but now i'm considering a small 10-20 shot of Nitrous as a valid option to cool IATs.
The AEM will also let me run the dashdaq or something equivalent. I'm OBD1 afterall...
Ugh.. this was an agonizing process! lol
* A proper tune should still pass CA smog
* I can use bigger injectors (RC500) at the factory fuel rail pressure with the factory pressure regulator and a Walbro 255
* Keep it at low boost but still achieve a stout 340-370hp
* But most importantly keep the AFR correct all throughout the power band. The RRFPR is either rich or lean up top or down below depending on where you're at in the RPMs.
Unfortunately, this was the most expensive way to go but i'm convinced it's the optimal setup. Wish I would have thought this thru better before!
In terms of the heat soak... I'm hopeful that a proper tune via the EMS will make it a bit less of a problem. The Meth/water solution is still on the table but now i'm considering a small 10-20 shot of Nitrous as a valid option to cool IATs.
The AEM will also let me run the dashdaq or something equivalent. I'm OBD1 afterall...
Ugh.. this was an agonizing process! lol
Oh no ..... when do you have to decide, I just got back from SEMA and AEM has something new on the horizon, will still work with the DashDAQ and is going to be the mac-daddy of the Stand-a-lone world if it works as advertised.
There is some info out already but they are not shipping yet and have no plug-n-play harness applications for the NSX yet, but htat just means you have to be able to wire/solder your own harness.
http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.php/topic,28808.0/topicseen.html
This could be a one box soution for OBD1 and OBD2 cars, still no idea on price yet but we will have to wait and see, hopefully soon.
Dave
Dave, you're killing me! In a good way...
I can wait a bit and i'm comfortable adapting my own harness. It just means no more track days for a while but it's also winter season so the timing might work out.
I missed SEMA this year but can you share some highlights for us laymen in terms of this Infinity 10 unit vs. EMS?
Well the main thing is this unit can drive upto two drive-by-wire throttle bodies and has enough in/out digital and analog to drive almost anything out there, you can run a V20 in wasted spark and batch fire if you needed to or a V10 with full sequencial fuel and spark. It has a CAN bus and can talk to just about any CAN enabled device, on the DashDAQ update rates will be insane like 100 times a second for every available PID. It should be able to be configured to run OBD1 or OBD2 cars without using the OEM ECU as a piggy back, for the throttle by wire cars, that means ditch the OEM ECU and everything will work, programmable tunable traction control not just boost control by gear, but control the throttle plate to reduce wheel spin. There really is nothing that this baby will not be able to handle if everything works as advertised. That is a big IF but things look good.
The EMS-S2 will be less money but for the OBDII guys the IN-10 will be the best solution since everything will be on one ECU and not running as a piggyback.
For the Domestic market AEM introduced a drive shaft dyno, a sensor that replaces the factory yoke at the transmision and feeds data to a gauge and software to calculate real time torque and HP numbers, for the drag racers this will be a great tool to find out what the engine, trans, suspension and tires are doing on every run.
Dave
No updates the FIC carries over as is, but they did add a new/repackaged F/IC for motorsports aplications and I was assured the F/IC is not dead or dying they sell alot of them I was told.
Dave
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