In Shape, Out of Shape....

So need to get in good shape by Dec 1st. Have been doing one muscle routine per day at the gym (monday-chest, tues-bicep/tricep, wed-back/shoulder, thurs-rest. fri-start over).

Question is, would going 2 times a day help a lot more? If so, how would i attack the muscle groups?

Trying to drop middle stomach weight, get toned, and put on a bit of muscle/defintion.

Help appreciated.
 
lafun2 said:
So need to get in good shape by Dec 1st. Have been doing one muscle routine per day at the gym (monday-chest, tues-bicep/tricep, wed-back/shoulder, thurs-rest. fri-start over).

Question is, would going 2 times a day help a lot more? If so, how would i attack the muscle groups?

Trying to drop middle stomach weight, get toned, and put on a bit of muscle/defintion.

Help appreciated.
It looks like you're forgetting about legs. You may not care what your legs look like, but training your legs will dramatically affect gains that you see all over your body. This is fact. Also, you're forgetting about cardio. Strength training helps lose body fat when combined with a good diet, but cardio is really key to pulling off body fat all over.
 
I put a StairMaster PT4400 in my office. It helps that I only have to move 10' to get to it and that it's within view all day long. I get to work before everyone else anyway, so that's a good time to hop on. I crank up the Maiden on my PC, hop on for 40 minutes, and by the time I'm cooled down, cleaned up and changed, I'm STILL the only one in the office. I had the cable company put a TV jack in here when they wired up the place for data so that may come in handy as well. I still eat mostly like $h1t but I've been trying to at least think about what I eat rather than just eating anything I want.
 
johnny010 said:
and lay off the weights for the first one to two weeks while your body adjusts to your new routine of working out.


:eek: Never knew this part. I have been doing weight/cardio as I started my training :frown: :confused:
 
SaberX said:
It looks like you're forgetting about legs. You may not care what your legs look like, but training your legs will dramatically affect gains that you see all over your body. This is fact. Also, you're forgetting about cardio. Strength training helps lose body fat when combined with a good diet, but cardio is really key to pulling off body fat all over.

Saber--yeah I wasn't very clever in my post. I am doing 1 hour of workout. 20 minutes cardio, 40 minutes weight.

I have been skipping legs, you are right. But I feel if I do
Monda-Chest
Tues-Tri/Biceps
Wed-shoulder
Thurs-Off

Friday-Chest

See in this routine each muscle is getting 3 day rest. If I throw legs in there, then I feel like the muscles are getting 4 days in between, and too much rest? I am an amatuer, and trying to learn from you guys. I appreciate the help.

My main goals are:
1) Larger biceps
2) Larger shoulder muscle
3) Bigger Chest
4) Get rid of love handles/a little more definition of stomach (no need for six packs).
 
robr said:
I put a StairMaster PT4400 in my office. It helps that I only have to move 10' to get to it and that it's within view all day long. I get to work before everyone else anyway, so that's a good time to hop on. I crank up the Maiden on my PC, hop on for 40 minutes, and by the time I'm cooled down, cleaned up and changed, I'm STILL the only one in the office. I had the cable company put a TV jack in here when they wired up the place for data so that may come in handy as well. I still eat mostly like $h1t but I've been trying to at least think about what I eat rather than just eating anything I want.


:eek: 40 minutes on Treadmill? Amazing! I can't stay on for more than 20 minutes. Treadmill is sooo boring, and I keep running out of breath.

If I don't do 2 a day gym session, I may instead do 1 hour cardio/weight in the morning, and in the evening go out for a 1 hour bike ride.
 
lafun2 said:
:eek: 40 minutes on Treadmill? Amazing! I can't stay on for more than 20 minutes. Treadmill is sooo boring, and I keep running out of breath.

If I don't do 2 a day gym session, I may instead do 1 hour cardio/weight in the morning, and in the evening go out for a 1 hour bike ride.

It's actually a stairmaster. I was in the market for a treadmill but I couldn't turn down the price on this ($3600 stairmaster I got on craigslist for $400) and I enjoy the stairmaster too. I'm still looking for a good treadmill to put in here as well.

40 minutes goes by pretty quickly... I just try and set everything up before hand... Shut off the lights to stop the glare on the readout, crank on some good tunes, have a big bottle of water, and go. I'm overweight but I'm still in decent shape aerobically. It wasn't all that long ago I could run a half marathon with a 10 minute pace. My last long run was Sept 2004 which was a 10 mile run at a pathetic 11 minute pace. I weighed in at 210# before that run. So in 2 years I've gained 40# but I still do the occasional 3 mile run but it's murder on my feet when I run on the street.

I love gadgets (duh) so I'm currently trying to figure out if someone makes a heart rate receiver compatible with Polar transmitters that I can plug in directly to the PC. It would be great to get real time visual feedback on my PC while I'm on the stairmaster and historical logging to watch performance gains without having to resort to getting a watch that does logging, then downloading the logs.
 
You are certainly motivating me! I hit the gym in about another hour..Will try to push it to 25 minutes today..and see if I can do it.:smile:
 
Lafun you better incorporate legs into your routine,and you can do so by including at least two muscle groups per workout.I like to mix muscle groups that oppose each other,ie. pull and push muscles in the same day so as not to fatigue or overuse the same muscle group.I do pecs- lats/ shoulders-biceps/ legs-triceps and mix in abdomon and low back each day.
 
Thanks Doc!

So maybe something like this:

Monda-bicep/shoulder
Tues-Tri-legs
Wed-chest
Thurs-day off

Firday-bicep/shoulder again?

I do cardio/abs everyday I am at the gym.
 
lafun2 said:
Thanks Doc!

So maybe something like this:

Monda-bicep/shoulder
Tues-Tri-legs
Wed-chest
Thurs-day off

Firday-bicep/shoulder again?

I do cardio/abs everyday I am at the gym.
Don't forget about your back :). Personally, I would split it up more like the following:
Mon: shoulders/triceps
Tues: quads/hamstrings
Wed: back/biceps
Thurs: off
Fri: chest

That's just me though. Some people like to do push/pull type splits and others see great results from grouping opposing muscle groups - etc... etc... etc. I think I'm more old-school in my routine. IMO, you should try many different training styles until you find out what fits you the best.




BTW, Ski - thanks for getting my back. :wink:
 
Individual routines can vary all over the map, the key is to hit the large muscle groups each day in a well configured plan that lasts for 2-4 months,then mix things up a bit.You also need to slowly increase the resistance and or weight over time,or the # of reps.Our bodies will adapt to a routine over time and you will reach a stasis or plateau.Now in reality most of us here are recreational average joes,not competitive bodybuilders or athletes per se,so you need to figure out what your goals are and tailor your routine to achieve that goal.You will know you have succeeded when the scale and your mirror as well as unbiased friends have told you so.Don't forget your other parameters of overall health,such as diet/lipid-cholesteral levels,and aerobic capacity.For those of you into drinking to satiate hunger try to limit the amout of carbonated beverage as these in large amounts can reduce calcium absorbsion.:smile:
 
lafun2 said:
red--what would you say are 3-4 "back exercises"?

I didn't realize this thread was still going, no noitifications.

not that you asked my opinion but here are a few

Lat pull downs
Cable rows
Cable cross overs for the back.
close grip pull downs
underhand pulldowns


For your goals your plan of 40 minutes on weights and 20 minutes on cardio sounds good. Do the weights first. As its been pointed out don't forget legs...otherwise you will end up as I call them martini glasses. Your goals seem to be based around the mirror muscles...hence the bi and no tri, chest and shoulders. If you ever look at a well developed physique you need both bi and tri, chest and back..upper and lower etc. Switch up your routines I tried all kinds of things and still switch around.

Back and chest (this was too much)
Bi and tri
shoulders and legs (this was too much)

Chest and Bi
Back and tri
shoulders
legs

Chest and tri
Back and bi
shoulders
legs

Currently I am doing this

Chest, traps and cardio
Back, calves and cardio
Bi's and tris
Shoulders and Cardio
legs (hamstrings and quads)
abs fit in wherever

I don't have set days for doing any part, I just rotate whatever comes next is what I do.

Figure out how many days you can work out and shuffle things around to see what works for you, its differnet for everyone, plus what owrks for a couple months might not after a while. Next thing to think about is rep tempo, from fast to slow, high volume to low volume...
 
I talked to a bodybuilder tonight and he gave me a tip I've never heard before.

He explained, like most of us know (and some just found out), that working the legs can dramatically affect the rest of the body; however, he said he does a quick/light two sets of squats before each workout, and this has increased his gains drastically (for his entire body, rest of his routine is the same).

I typically hits legs on Wednesdays.

Calves and abs are five days a week since the muslces rebuild much faster/overnight.

I am down about 16 pounds right now. I'm also hungry, and been very up and down emotionally. Ephedra does work though, and supresses my appetite during the day, but when I pop a pill before my workout in the evening to keep me going through the entire workout, it ends up keeps me awake at night....
 
Are you taking Ephedra alone or with Caffeine+Aspirine? The effect using the stack is so much more intense... 1+1=5 in this case (where the 1,1 are the two stimulants). The explanation is long and complex but I can tell more if you need...

Anyway, never take ECA after 5pm ot you will have a lot of problems falling asleep before 2am...
 
Ok, then this is a MUST-READ article, I found it on newsgroup years ago, written by a guy, Sandeep De... I wonder where he is now :tongue: . Anyway, read it all and then decide... I can confirms it works very well but before it is better to know about advantages and disadvantages of it! :cool:


In so far as "fat loss supplements", we can safely say that there is a lot of snake oil out there. Infomercials laden with worthless garbage, quacks who pretend to know what they're talking about, celebrities hawking magic potions that worked "wonders" their fat butts. Of all supplements, the intelligent athlete is probably the most wary of those that claim to enhance "fat burning". However, there is a "magic bullet" that not too many people know of. It is easily available, perfectly safe and highly effective for its cost. The Ephedrine / Caffeine / Aspirin stack is one of the most effective supplements that you can buy. Period. As you may already know I'm not a big fan of supplements. So you can probably guess that if I think highly of the ECA stack, it is the real deal.
The effects that you get from this simple combination are pretty amazing when you compare it to the ineffectiveness of the majority of supplements out there. One does not only "see results" from the ECA stack but "feel them" as well. There is no placebo effect. This is the real deal. Before we get into how the stack is beneficial to athletes, it is first important to understand how it works.

Mechanisms of Action
The Ephedrine / Caffeine / Aspirin stack is obviously composed of three different agents. Ephedrine, Caffeine and Aspirin. Duh.
Ephedrine is what is known as a beta agonist. It stimulates the beta receptors in the body; which are responsible for burning fat. Ephedrine is also what is known as a thermogenic compound - it raises body temperature and metabolism. But this is not all it does. There are two types of adipose tissues (body fat) in the body, one type that most people have never heard of. Brown Adipose Tissue (BAT) exists between the shoulder blades and differs from normal adipose tissue (bodyfat) in that it is metabolically active. This means that it expends energy to survive, unlike normal fat tissue, which just hangs over your belt and cushions your butt. Ephedrine has been shown to stimulate BAT to expend energy, raising metabolism. Ephedrine is also a bronchodilator - meaning that it opens up the breathing passageways. You can find small amounts of ephedrine in many sinus and cold remedies (however, it is sometimes substituted with pseudo-ephedrine, which is not the same as the name suggests. Pseudo-ephedrine will not function the same way as normal ephedrine if substituted into the stack). Finally, ephedrine is known to release the hormone epinephrine, commonly known as adrenaline. Now we all think of adrenaline as being the "fight" hormone, that thing that helps mothers lift cars off trapped kids and other neat stuff like that. But Epinephrine is also a vital hormone in fat loss. This is because it acts directly on adipose tissue, enhancing the process of lipolysis (fat burning).
Ephedrine, the chemical, can be obtained in two basic forms: as Ephedrine Hydrochloride (the most effective form) and Ephedra/Ma Huang, the herbal equivalent. Since Mahuang/Ephedra (interchangeable names) are not concentrated forms of ephedrine like Ephedrine Hydrochloride is, you need significantly more to get the same effect. Approximately 300 mg of Ephedra/Mahuang converts to 25mg of pure Ephedrine, whereas 25mg of Ephedrine Hydrochloride = 25mg of pure ephedrine. However, depending on the quality more or less Mahuang/Ephedra may be needed to be equivelant to 25mg of pure ephedrine. Look for a standardization percentage on the label of the mahuang/ephedra you buy, it will tell you what percentage of the ephedra/mahuang yields how much ephedrine. Both Ephedrine Hydrochloride and Mahuang/Ephedra are readily available in health food stores, however, ephedrine in both forms has been banned in some states in the US (I will fully explain this issue later in this article. Don't get scared yet).
Caffeine is the next part of the "stack". Caffeine has long been known to boost the central nervous system and to help the body use fats for fuel by stimulating the process of lipolysis through the release of epinephrine (adrenaline). It is also a thermogenic compound (raises body temperature). Caffeine is obviously readily found in society; you can find it in soft drinks, coffee, tea, etc. Caffeine is also available in tablet form at just about any drug store.
Aspirin has many beneficial effects, but its contribution to the stack is as a blood thinner. Aspirin improves the circulation of the blood (and therefore the nutrients it contains) in the body. The better the blood circulates, the more effectively the stack can affect body fat lipolysis.

So how do they work together?
Ephedrine and caffeine are "okay" fat burners when used alone. However, once they were combined together, they complement each other's effects. Instead of 1+1 = 2, when ephedrine and caffeine are combined, you get a synergistic effect where 1 + 1 = 3. They enhance fat burning much more efficiently than if utilized alone. Now, when you add aspirin to the mix, the effects of ephedrine and caffeine are more efficiently distributed throughout the body. The efficacy of the stack is further enhanced.

Effects of the ECA Stack
The first noticeable effect of the stack is a stimulatory one. Ephedrine and caffeine are by nature stimulants. Because of the epinephrine releasing effects of caffeine and ephedrine, you get a giant "kick" from the stack. For most people, this means that for 2 hours after ingesting the stack, they get the same "amped up, wired and ready to take on the world feeling" that they do when they are fighting or very aggressive. The first time you get this feeling is incredible. This stimulatory effect is why the supplement Ultimate Orange boasts being a method of breaking through past records and pushing workout intensity to new levels. It contains ephedra and caffeine, and consequently the increased stimulation makes for stronger, more intense workouts. This stimulatory effect is also beneficial during low calorie dieting phases when the "energy" a person has is generally low. It gives you the energy to push through grueling workouts despite low caloric intakes.
The ECA stack, however, is not just valuable as a preworkout stimulant or as a booster to blast through past performances. It is far more important as a dieting aid. Personally, I am amazed at just how many benefits you can derive from such a simple and inexpensive supplement.
The first effect that the stack has is that it enhances metabolism through thermogenesis (raising body temperature). By raising the body's temperature, you expend significantly more energy. This makes dieting phases all the more efficient. You burn more fat without actually trying harder, exercising more or doing anything to your diet. Your "engine" is cranked a little faster, and you burn more fat just by living. <grin>
The ECA stack also has appetite suppressing effects. It blunts hunger for 4 hours after ingestion, making dieting and restricting calories very easy to do. You don't have to even think about it because the ECA physiologically slows down hunger.
The stack produces more efficient and higher quality weight loss. During normal calorie restriction diets, most people end up losing a great deal of muscle along with fat. Consequently in the long run their body fat composition does not improve that dramatically. However, with the ECA stack, the composition of the weight lost is much better. More muscle mass is retained and more body fat is burned instead. The quality of your dieting phases is immediately improved by the ECA stack. Improvements in bodyfat composition are much better when the stack is in the mix. When one considers the enthusiasm with which people diet down - hard training, restricted calories - preserving every bit of muscle mass is vital indeed. In fact, subjects using the ECA stack lost 7.5 more lbs. than other subjects on a similar diet and using a placebo. In another seperate study, obese subjects lost 10 lbs. more fat and 5 lbs. less lean body mass than subjects who did not utilize the stack during dieting phases.
One negative side effect normally associated with dieting phases is the fact that HDL cholesterol - or good cholesterol - goes down in the bloodstream. This is not good. However, the ECA stack has been proven through research to preserve HDL cholesterol levels in the bloodstream despite fat loss. This is another benefit of the stack.
Ephedrine has also been shown to spare glucose during dieting phases. What this means is that the body relies more upon energy from breaking down bodyfat than on glucose. Blood glucose has been shown through study to increase while utilizing the ECA stack. This is again beneficial for dieting phases. What this means is that your body will first want to run off stored bodyfat, and "save" valuable glucose for demanding endeavours. If one is not utilizing the stack during dieting phases, the body equally uses up glucose and bodyfat for energy demands, and will also use a great deal of protein from muscle mass for energy needs as blood glucose gets low. Obviously, using more bodyfat and saving blood glucose (thereby preserving muscle mass) means more effective and less lethargic dieting phases.
There is one caveat though, the stimulatory effects of the ECA stack do attenuate (slow down) as usage progresses. This means that the amped up feeling grows less and less noticeable over time. The adrenal receptors in the body grow more accustomed to the greater levels of epinephrine and as such downgrade. However, the important thing to note is that the effects of the ECA stack on the beta receptors - those responsible for fat loss - do NOT downgrade. Fat loss continues just as effectively long after the stimulatory effects of the stack diminish. In fact, one subject in a study lost 145 lbs. of bodyfat over 13 months. This is highly significant. Why? Normally during calorie restricted phases the body tries to protect itself after a certain amount of time and limits the amount of bodyfat being lost. This is why fat loss is usually excellent the first few weeks of a diet but becomes very difficult once the person has been dieting for months on end. The ECA stack ensures that fat loss is steady and does not allow this point of diminishing returns to approach.
The ECA stack was actually proved more effective at reducing bodyfat safely and effectively than the popular diet drug dexfenfluramine (commonly known as Phen/Fen). It provided greater fat loss than the drug, but did not produce as much gastrointestinal distress (i.e. diarrhea, upset stomach, etc.) as Phen/Fen. Interestingly enough Phen/Fen has just been pulled off the market by the FDA! Another reason for the ECA stack.
The stack is not addictive. There are no withdrawal symptoms or physiological dependencies associated with cessation of usage. This is not the case for most diet drugs, which have very harsh withdrawal symptoms. Usage can stop at any time.
Finally, the stack enhances the process of lipolysis, or fat burning - by increasing the activity of the main enzyme responsible for it (called lipase). It makes fat burning more active and more efficient.

Problems with the ECA Stack
As with all things, there are certain negative side effects associated with the ECA stack.
During the first week of usage the user normally encounters a few small annoyances. Firstly, the the body is so stimulated by epinephrine and the boost to the CNS that they get a case of the "jitters". Their fingers shake mildly even though they are not agitated. However, studies have shown that this effect recedes as time progresses (i.e. after the first week, it is not as apparent). This is, however, an important consideration for those who need steady hands in their occupation. This effect can be minimized. Firstly, one has to ease into usage and not immediately start with heavy doses. For myself, I gradually started using the stack over two weeks, slowly working my way up to 5 days of the stack 3x a day. As a result, I did not notice "the jitters" as badly as people have when they just started popping the stuff like breath mints at a singles bar. Furthermore, there is evidence showing that adding the amino acid tyrosine to the stack can minimize this effect. Adding 1 gram of L-tyrosine to the stack can help increase the effectiveness of the ephedrine by nearly 50%. What this implies is that you can reduce ephedrine dosages to half the normal dosage and thereby help curb off some of the stimulatory effect.
Secondly, the stack can cause a bit of diarrhea if taken on an empty stomach, like creatine monohydrate. This effect, however, can be minimized by taking the stack with a meal. I believe that the diarrhea is mostly due to the caffeine - so if you are used to a bit of caffeine in your diet, then this might not even be a problem. However, taking the stack with a meal will ensure that the chemicals are buffered and are not as harsh on your stomach. Choose the optimal time of ingestion appropriate for you.
Since the stack is stimulatory, it is not a smart idea to take a hit of it after 6:00 PM (assuming you're in bed by 11:00 PM). Remember that you can "feel" the stimulatory effects of the stack for a good 3-4 hours after taking it. Taking the stack too late in the night will keep you awake and restless when you normally go to bed. Most people like a good night of sleep; so unless you're some kind of twisted nocturnal freak, don't take the stack too late in the night.
Myself and others have noticed that after you cease your final dosage of ECA for the day, you do get a bit of a headache and do feel somewhat lethargic. The lethargy is easily explained. The ECA stack produces a stimulatory effect, so the body will try to maintain homeostasis by trying to balance out the stimulation with interaction from the parasympathetic nervous system. Since the stimulation is exogenous, i.e. of the body, once it is removed (i.e. ECA dosages are stopped), the parasympathetic system can operate unopposed - which is the reason why you feel tired. The headache is most probably a sign of caffeine withdrawal. Ephedrine itself does not seem to have any physiological withdrawal symptoms but if you are not to a certain amount of caffeine in your diet you might get a bit of a headache or feel irritable after ceasing dosages. In any event, a few Tylenols will easily take care of any headaches. It should be noted that headaches are not to be expected but do nonetheless occur occasionally.
Ephedrine does raise blood pressure, but only temporarily. This is NOT a permanent effect (unlike eating excessive saturated fats in the diet). As soon as you cease usage, i.e. even in the same day, blood pressure returns to normal. It is not necessary to worry about negative impacts on blood pressure.
There are people who should NOT use the stack. You should not use ephedrine is you have heart disease, high blood pressure, thyroid disease, diabetes or an enlarged prostate. Furthermore, if you are taking any MAO inhibitor drugs for depression or appetite suppression, you should stay away from ephedrine. St. John's wort is a supplement that is currently blowing it up - and while the studies have not yet determined the mechanism through which it works - two possible ones are hypothesized. 1] SJW might work through very low level monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibition and 2] it might work by blocking the reuptake of serotonin in the brain. It is better to err on the side of caution, no? So for now - atleast until the mechanism through which SJW works can be isolated, it is better to avoid taking SJW and Ephedrine together. Others (included myself) have combined the two in the past and have no noticed no ill effects - but we're talking brain neurochemistry here- not something you want to screw with. If you have peptic ulcers - aspirin and caffeine can aggravate that situation.
Aside from that, you will notice an increased amount of perspiration, but that is to be expected as the metabolism is being increased beyond normal levels. Sure, you'll look like a dork with pit stains - but think about how you'll look after 4 weeks when you're off the stack and shredded like a cole slaw in a blender. My personal reccomendation would be to wear dark, baggy clothing while dieting prevent any social embarassment.

The Lies of Ephedrine Risks
Ephedrine is a banned substance in several US States. I will explain the politics around this situation. This is not going to be a rant on any kind of "government conspiracy" theory or anything kooky like that. It's just the nature of the public to overreact before fully comprehending a situation.
In our society, we have become psychologically conditioned to respond frantically to anything alarming. People respond more than they think, they act before they understand. All someone has to do is utter the words "studies show blah blah is dangerous..." and people will run away screaming without thinking. I am not one of these people, I would rather know the information for myself and make a decision based on what I think - rather than someone else telling me what to think.
Recently, the FDA has questioned the deaths of three wrestlers who used creatine and died before a competition. Now, in ten year's of medical study, never once has there been any fatalities associated with creatine usage. In truth, millions of people are using creatine at present. There isn't any apparent mechanism through which creatine cause death. But hey, these wrestler's died - and they happened to be using creatine. So let's blame the creatine. It's akin to someone drowning in the ocean while wearing blue swimming trunks and there suddenly being a controversy over how blue swimming trunks cause drowning.
Anyone who knows anything about competitive wrestling knows that wrestlers are notorious for using dangerous methods of losing weight before a competition. The quickest way to lose weight is to get rid of bodily water. However, you need water to survive. Wrestler's don't care. As you may or may not know, wrestling is divided in categories by weight. Obviously, if you weigh more than your opponent you will have an advantage. So wrestlers will always try and make the lowest weight class they can manage. They do this by sucking all the water out of themselves when they are to be weighed at the competition, and then quickly regaining it before they actually compete. This is a dangerous practice. They will wear rubber suits, use saunas, and make use of dangerous diuretic drugs like Lasix - drawing so much water out of their body that their blood becomes thick and cannot properly circulate. The ratio of the chemicals in their blood goes out of proportion to the water in their body. Their bodies stop functioning. Remember the saying that you can go weeks without food but only a few days without water? These wrestler's died because of diuretic usage. Not because of creatine usage. But what people do not understand, they will blame. The university will not say "Look, our wrestlers were using illegal drugs, but everyone is using them. Will you people still buy tickets to the competition?".
Another example of how society reacts before they think is how people try to mistakenly take all the fat out of their diets in an effort to become leaner. As anyone who is educated knows, there is such thing as an "essential fatty acid" which the body needs to survive. The body cannot produce essential fatty acids on it's own. They must be supplied through the diet to survive, and they can only come from dietary fats. Without these essential fatty acids hormone production is diminished. Nerve conduction becomes inefficient. The membranes of the eyes, brain, adrenal glands and sex organs start to break down. Despite the damning truths, you never cease to hear airhead bimbos and moron trainers say that "fat is bad". Fat is not bad. Fat is vital to survival. Overeating is bad. Without the essential fatty acids the body needs, you WILL sicken and die. But this is not what the media and most of society understands. The consensus is not always the truth.
Juris Shibayama has a very interesting story on just how alarmist our society has become. "A student at Eagle Rock Junior High won first prize at the Greater Idaho Falls Science Fair, April 26. He was attempting to show how conditioned we have become to alarmists practicing junk science and spreading fear of everything in our environment. In his project he urged people to sign a petition demanding strict control or total elimination of the chemical "dihydrogen monoxide." And for plenty of good reasons, since: 1. it can cause excessive sweating and vomiting 2. it is a major component in acid rain 3. it can cause severe burns in its gaseous state 4. accidental inhalation can kill you 5. it contributes to erosion 6. it decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes 7. it has been found in tumors of terminal cancer patients He asked 50 people if they supported a ban of the chemical. Forty-three (43) said yes, six (6) were undecided, and only one (1) knew that the chemical was WATER. The title of his prize winning project was, "How Gullible Are We?" He feels the conclusion is obvious."
So why have I mentioned all of these things? To point out the fact that alarmist garbage often drowns the truth. These are just a few examples of how popular thinking is not close to the truth. So let's get to the meat of the matter regarding ephedrine.
Several deaths have been linked to ephedrine. Don't run away scared just yet. Look up the studies in the references below and hear me out.
In all of these deaths, the amount of ephedrine consumed was at insane levels.
It is not reccomended that you use more than 90 mg of ephedrine daily, this is more than sufficient for even morbidly obese individuals. Studies have been conducted where significantly more ephedrine than this amount was consumed daily and no ill effects were observed. But going back to the fatalities; in most of these cases, as much as 250mg of ephedrine was used at one time! Some of these deaths have occured in teenaged "ravers". "Raves" are all night parties consisting of underground dance music, held in secretive locations (such as warehouses, etc.). Drug usage at raves is an accepted and common practice. Drugs such as ecstasy, methamphetamines, cocaine, etc. are all readily available. One type of drug that is available is called "Herbal Ecstasy". In some concoctions, a single hit of herbal ecstasy can have as much as 150 mg of ephedrine in addition to other more dangerous stimulants and drugs. Anyone with a shred of common sense can tell that this is a dangerous game to play; but most teenage drug users aren't exactly Nobel Prize winners. I repeat, all deaths occurred involving ephedrine occurred when it was used in maniacal doses. One of the studies even recognized that many of the victims had histories of drug abuse. Even with the moderately dosages used in some studies (i.e. 80 mg ephedrine 3 x daily = 240mg ephedrine daily), subjects tolerated the ephedrine well and no ill effects were observed. The reccomendations for fat loss purposes are even lower than those in the studies. Obviously 90mg of ephedrine daily is significantly less than 240mg daily; which was shown to be well tolerated. 240mg is still below the levels found in those who died from overdose. Autopsies have shown that some of the teenagers who died as a result of ephedrine overdose had as much as 500mg in their dead carcasses! It becomes obvious that stupidity, not ephedrine, is the murderer of these kids.
In an effort to stop irresponsible usage of ephedrine, most manufacturers now bind Guafeneisin to the ephedrine. What this does is ensure that it is not possible to overdose on ephedrine. If excess ephedrine is taken, the guafeneisin also becomes excessive and irritates the stomach. Vomiting is induced and hence the risk is diminished.
Toxicology reports actually show that ephedrine is within a safer usage bracket than ibuprofen or aspirin. More deaths have occurred because of these two common pain killers, and yet they are never heard of causing any controversy. Why is this so? I not about to go political on your ass, but think about the economic implications of pulling aspirin and ibuprofen off the market. How many billions of dollars would be lost? Maybe that will give you a bit of a clue as to why the FDA is being so stupid regarding the most potent fat burner available to society. Think about all the companies and pharmaceutical giants that they would alienate if people knew that something simple and cheap, something that you could pick up for $10 bucks at your local store was more effective and safer than expensive diet drugs such as dexfenfluramine. Drugs that need doctor's prescriptions and time. Drugs that require suppliers and retailers, pharmacists and transportation. Drugs that require MONEY. What you decide to do is your choice, but I encourage you to go into Medline and look at the studies yourself. The truth will become obvious very quickly.

Reccomendations on Usage
The ECA stack works best when ephedrine and caffeine are utilized in a 1 to 10 ratio. Since most Ephedrine Hydrochloride tablets came in 25 mg sizes, one should utilize 250mg of caffeine for optimal effects. The only problem with this is that most caffeine tablets are NOT divided in 250mg sizes. I would suggest cutting up and combining the caffeine tablets until you have the equivelant of 250mg. For example, I use "Wake-Ups" which are 100 mg of caffeine per tablet. I break a tablet in two with a knife, and take one half along with two le tablets - giving me a total of 250mg. I would prefer to use the tablet form over liquids such as coke or coffee because ore difficult to quantify exactly how much caffeine you are taking with the liquids. With tablets you can be sure you are maintaining the optimal 1:10 ratio between ephedrine and caffeine. If you would like an exhaustive list of the caffeine content in various foods and drinks, please consult the caffeine article that I wrote. Aspirin's primary function in the stack is as a prostaglandin inhibitor and to improve the efficacy of the the ephedrine and caffeine components. Large doses of aspirin have been associated with higher risks for ulcers. Empirically many have noticed nose bleeds accompanying usage of the standard 325 mg aspirin tablet, 3x daily. It is therefore suggested that you use 1/3 to 1/2 a normal sized 325 mg. aspirin per hit of the stack. Alternatively, you can utilize the baby-sized aspirin tablets which are 81 mg. per dose.
Personally, I would avoid buying the pre-made stacks such as Ripped Fuel and Thermadrene. Not because they are ineffective. They are great supplements - I have used Thermadrene before and it's pretty good. I suggest this only because it is very cheap to put together the stack on your own. Plus, you can be sure that you are getting the "perfect" ratios in your own stack. That cannot be said for premade products. Brooks Finnegan (aka "The Supplement God" from the Bigboys site) states that ephedrine is so cheap to manufacture and buy in bulk that there is little risk of buying "bogus" ephedrine. Nonetheless, as with all things, stick to reputable companies.
From personal experience, I think the optimal time to take the stack is between meals, atleast 30 minutes before. The stimulatory effects are much more pronounced this way than if you take it with a meal. Furthermore, I think that the metabolic effects of the stack are used to burn off a meal when you take the stack with food. That burning of the meal would occur normally in your body - you might as well amp up your metabolism when it is least active.
Because the stack protects your muscle mass against being catabolized, the stack should be taken 30 minutes to 1 hour before exercise of any kind when you are dieting. Cardio, weights, whatever. When you're dieting, you're prone to losing muscle, so you might as well ensure that the protein sparing effects of the stack are in action when you're most at danger. Remember, the more muscle you maintain and the more fat you lose, the better your body fat composition becomes. Improving bodyfat composition is ALWAYS the ultimate goal of dieting phases; not just "losing weight" in general. Losing muscle is not the goal!
Wait 4 hours between doses. Do not take more than 3 doses (or the number of doses that equal 75-90 mg ephedrine ) a day. Remember, three doses a day is plenty for a large, 200 lb. athlete. If you are smaller than this you will not require as much. Use the number of daily that you think is appropriate. Drink plenty of water along with the stack - caffeine is by nature a diuretic and can draw water out of the body. In any event - while dieting, you should be drinking water like a fish!
Try to find powdered ephedrine in gelatin capsules if possible. Tablets and caplets take longer to digest than capsules; therefore, the rate of absorption is lessened. You will probably not be able to find caffeine and aspirin capsules, though.
The stack is extremely inexpensive to put together. Around here, you can find 100 capsules of ephedrine hydrochloride for $14 CDN, 250 tablets of caffeine for $10 CDN, and a bottle of aspirin for $3 CDN. So for 100 doses the cost per dose is approximately 25 cents. Even my poor, sorry ass can spare 3 quarters a day to get shredded like razor wire!
I would highly reccomend tapering dosages both when starting the stack and when going off it. Slowly ween yourself on and off the stack and you should notice no ill side effects. (i.e. jitters).
The appetite suppressing effects of the stack are profound. You can't truly understand it until you try it. You just don't feel hungry, at all, while the stack is in action. However, this can be both a good thing and a bad thing. Make sure that you eat at least 3 solid and balanced meals for every 3 times that you hit the stack. Do not starve your body. Even though the stack will protect you against a great deal of muscle loss, it will not make up for stupidity. Effective fat reduction is not starving, it is intelligently manipulating the diet.
Don't ever take more than 25mg of ephedrine at a time. It does not seem dangerous to go above this - my training partner regularly uses 50mg of ephedrine before a workout and a lot of the estudies examining ephedrine used as much as 80mg at a time. However, I think that it's always best to play on the side of caution, and I just don't think that you need more than this.
In my humble opinion I think that the ECA stack works best when used with low carb (40-30-30), isocaloric (i.e. 33% fat, 33% protein, 33% carbohydrates) or cyclical ketogenic diets.
If you are using the stack, do not use it excessively. At the most, I would use it for 5 days on and two days off per week. Furthermore, I would not use it for months on end because of the effects of the stack on your adrenal receptors. Taking a month or two off the stack after a month or two on it will allow your adrenal receptors to upgrade and return to normal. Although fat loss will always be effective, by taking this time off - when you use the stack again, you will feel the stimulatory "kick" that you did when you first start using it.
Finally, an issue that keeps on presenting itself in the online training forums and in email queries. I am sick and tired of getting these Q's so let's put an end to it here. Where can you find ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin? Because of the aforementioned garbage, ephedrine is not readily available everywhere in the world. If you can't find it at your local health food store then it is probably banned in your area. You have several options. 1] Purchase AST Dymetadrine (25mg ephedrine hydrochloride) from online stores such as Netrition and The Power Store. These companies also sell guarana (herbal caffeine) supplements as well as pre-made stack supplements such as Ripped Fuel and Thermadrene. Caffeine and aspirin tabs should be readily available in any drug store. 2] T&M has been a long time distributor of stack constituents (items #5 and #22 are what you are looking for.) and has excellent prices. Sun Lab is another very inexpensive source (800-999-9990). Other than Netrition, I have never ordered from any of these companies so I can't qualify their service. I am only providing pointers for those who need them.
The ephedrine / caffeine / aspirin stack is a weapon that I believe should be in every dieter's arsenal, and one of the few supplements that I truly believe in. If you've never felt as though you've gotten more bang for your supplement buck, give the ECA stack a shot. You will not be disappointed.
 
I had thought that ephedrine had a federal ban, it's state by state? Also re: ECA, I used this years ago when lifting, it was always pushed in conjunction with lifting. It sounds like it would also be beneficial for someone just doing cardio and trying to lose weight.

Anyone have a recommended ECA stack brand they use at a reasonable price point? Looking at froogle and reading the blurbs, it's hard to tell which is "real" ECA and what the dosages of each compound are.

I wonder how ECA compares to Clenbuterol :).

Update: wikipedia has this to say about ephedrine... it's sort of confusing because on one hand it says it's legal again, on the other it says companies are still fighting court battles.

As of 4/14/2005, U.S. District Judge Tena Campbell struck down the FDA's ban of supplements containing ephedrine alkaloids in the US, which may pave the way for its reintroduction as a weight loss supplement in the US.

Although ephedrine has been banned from the United States as a weightloss supplement, it is still commonly available as a bronchodilator in several Asthma medications from companies such as Biotek and Vasopro.

The ephedrine ban at the moment is being challenged by several companies. A judge in Utah has ruled in favor of a pharmaceutical company that challenged the FDA's ban and the company may once again release products containing ephedrine back into the market.
 
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clr1024 said:
For your goals your plan of 40 minutes on weights and 20 minutes on cardio sounds good. Do the weights first. As its been pointed out don't forget legs...otherwise you will end up as I call them martini glasses. Your goals seem to be based around the mirror muscles...hence the bi and no tri, chest and shoulders. If you ever look at a well developed physique you need both bi and tri, chest and back..upper and lower etc. Switch up your routines I tried all kinds of things and still switch around.

Thanks for the help! Much appreciated. I do think you might have misread my posts. I was initially skipping legs (which I won't do), but I ALWAYS wrote Triceps in my routine. :)

Interestingly you say do the weights before cardio, and I hear others say do the cardio first.:confused:
 
lafun2 said:
Thanks for the help! Much appreciated. I do think you might have misread my posts. I was initially skipping legs (which I won't do), but I ALWAYS wrote Triceps in my routine. :)

Interestingly you say do the weights before cardio, and I hear others say do the cardio first.:confused:

Ephedra is currently legal in 10 mg amounts (just in the last few months), but is going to court again. Grab it while you can.

Great article by the way.
 
johnny010 said:
I talked to a bodybuilder tonight and he gave me a tip I've never heard before.

He explained, like most of us know (and some just found out), that working the legs can dramatically affect the rest of the body; however, he said he does a quick/light two sets of squats before each workout, and this has increased his gains drastically (for his entire body, rest of his routine is the same).

I typically hits legs on Wednesdays.

Calves and abs are five days a week since the muslces rebuild much faster/overnight.

I am down about 16 pounds right now. I'm also hungry, and been very up and down emotionally. Ephedra does work though, and supresses my appetite during the day, but when I pop a pill before my workout in the evening to keep me going through the entire workout, it ends up keeps me awake at night....
Speaking of bodybuilders....I learned everything I know from a Pro bodybuilder who is my good friend and workout partner Michal Kindred. http://www.michalkindred.com/ I train with him 4 to 5 times a week and its just amazing the intensity he brings to his workouts. I'm talking total and complete failure with relatively (for his size) low weight. I've learned its all about the quality of the exercise, the form and the speed and not about weight at all.
I am not a Pro bodybuilder but I am a Personal Trainer part time - about 15 hours a week. I also work my primary job another 50 hours on top of that. I just try to stay in good shape and find a balance that works in my life. I'm 6'1" 195lbs around 14% bodyfat (bulking up at the moment). I find that my clients love the fact that I can be in great shape and work a normal job. It takes some work, but its a wonderful feeling to be healthy and fit.
 
Looks like the cheapest way to get a real ECA stack is rather than go with the supplement business, go with the pharmaceutical business.

One Bronkaid = 25mg Ephedrine
http://www.drugstore.com/products/p...=152878&trxp3=1&trxp4=0&btrx=BUY-PLST-0-BRAND

One No Doz = 200mg Caffeine

One 325mg aspirin

Not quite 1:10:10 or 1:10:15 but reasonably close.



Shipped By drugstore.com
Expected delivery date for these items: 9/26/06 - 9/30/061
1 Rite Aid Aspirin, 325mg, Tablets - 500 ea $ 4.19
2 NoDoz Maximum Strength Alertness Aid, Coated Caplets - 36 ea $ 11.78
2 Bronkaid Dual Action, Coated Caplets - 60 ea $ 19.98

drugstore.com Subtotal: $ 35.95
drugstore.com Shipping: FREE
Discount: $ -5.00
Tax: $ 0.00
Total: $ 30.95
 
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robr said:
Looks like the cheapest way to get a real ECA stack is rather than go with the supplement business, go with the pharmaceutical business.

One Bronkaid = 25mg Ephedrine
http://www.drugstore.com/products/p...=152878&trxp3=1&trxp4=0&btrx=BUY-PLST-0-BRAND

One No Doz = 200mg Caffeine

One 325mg aspirin

Not quite 1:10:10 or 1:10:15 but reasonably close.
Also, it is much cheaper than you listed. You made a typo. The Bonkaid is $9.99, not $19.99



Shipped By drugstore.com
Expected delivery date for these items: 9/26/06 - 9/30/061
1 Rite Aid Aspirin, 325mg, Tablets - 500 ea $ 4.19
2 NoDoz Maximum Strength Alertness Aid, Coated Caplets - 36 ea $ 11.78
2 Bronkaid Dual Action, Coated Caplets - 60 ea $ 19.98

drugstore.com Subtotal: $ 35.95
drugstore.com Shipping: FREE
Discount: $ -5.00
Tax: $ 0.00
Total: $ 30.95


any chance we'll end up dead like Elvis? Seems like some really strong uppers here.
The Bonkaid is oly $9.99, not $19.98.....nevermind you have 2 quantities.
 
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