I need track handling help from an expert!

[ryneen]

I just got back from Streets of Willow

I just returned today from an event at Streets of Willow. Here's my thoughts on the car (and me): The handling problem is 70% me and 30% the car.

I felt good about my driving most of the day. I definately was making progress and getting quicker and more comfortable with the car until I made a driver error and SPUN the car at the end of the front straight at full bore! I just finished making a pass and my car was a bit further to the inside than normal. Therefore, I had to hit a slightly earlier apex and got in way over my head because I had less room to track out. I turned a bit too sharp and the rear broke loose slightly and I foolishly let off the throttle which immediately spun the car around backwards before I could correct. Rookie move! Fortunately I've done this dozens of times in my Go Kart and was able to keep my 360 degree spin on the track with no harm to the car, just my ego. I can't belive how quick the NSX can end up backwards.

After this escapade, I decided to get an instructor in my car. We ran a few laps with me driving and he showed me the proper line. We were progressing until he said I could carry more speed into the turns than I was doing. He proceeded to tell me when I needed to finish braking and I followed his orders. Needless to say, this ended up in another spin. I was driving the correct line, but the rear broke loose and we spun. I told him that the front feels planted, but the rear is loose. He then decided he would drive it to show me how it's done. Wow, I learned alot. I had no idea my car was that fast. I must admit, I was scared, because I thought we were going too fast for the car and were going to spin. I was wrong. We definately were close to the cars limits. The car was in an on-power oversteer situation exiting many corners, but the car was very controlled and very fast. He commented that the tires weren't great, but that the car felt fairly neutral. (I still believe the front feels planted, but the rear needs traction).

Here's what I learned about the car and more importantly me:
1) Damn the NSX is fast in the correct hands. Honda kicks ass! I could only imagine how fast Doug H. is in his Pulp Mobile.
2) I have a tendency to get myself in trouble by commiting "trail brake oversteer". I come into corners too hot with too much brake pressure and get the back end loose. This is a habit from Kart racing that I must get rid of immediately in my NSX. It shows no mercy in this situation.
3) I need a lot more time in the car with instructors.
4) I need to get some better tires and more agressive alignment. It looks like I have zero camber and not much toe in. I got 16,000 miles out of my tires with street driving, 3 track events and several canyon runs. I think my setup is for optimal treadlife, not optimal handling.
5) When an NSX wants to spin it's nearly imposible to save.
6) I'll worry about upgrading my suspension after I upgrade my driving skills in the NSX.

Thanks for all of your help and wisdom,
Ryan

 

[2slow2speed]

Hi Ryan,

Nice to hear that you had fun and were able to learn quite a bit at the track today.

From your description, you might want to focus on braking a bit earlier so that you don't have problems of inadvertendly trail braking. It's better even if it forces you to be on neutral throttle sooner, threshold braking is relatively hard to do with street tires so you might want to concentrate on that later when you have gained a bit more experience.

Most of the time, you don't usually need to trail brake on the NSX, since it likes to turn so much.

The other option is to back off on the speed and concentrate on the line and car control. Even if your corner entry speed is not that high, you can force the NSX to have a controlled power oversteer (that's the feeling of drifting that you are probably describing) and learning to get a "feel" and "control" of it.

Something that was not mentioned earlier, is turning the TCS off for the track. You want to be predictable, TCS can be a bit intrusive at times when it detects wheel slippage, and the results can be very unpleasant to say the least. Removal of even a bit of throttle can upset the car in turns if you are not expecting it. (This applies to the previous paragraph, so I am assuming that your instructor turned the TCS off for his run)

And finally if you know that you are not going to make the turn, it's better off to track out and go off rather than trying to force the car to stay on course, or to try to yank the car back into the course, that's what causes most of the spins at the track. This might not apply 100% of the time, but if you know that you can go safely off, then that should be your preferred choice.

Ken

 

[RP-Motorsports]

you might want to focus on braking a bit earlier so that you don't have problems of inadvertendly trail braking.

Ryan, like Ken said, most "rookies" tend to be "fast-in slow-out" in learning how to take a corner. Work to be "slow-in fast-out" There are a few reasons why this is the way to drive...(1) it is safer! no 360 spins, no running out of room @ track out etc (2) if you can be "fast-out" vs another driver, you will have a few more mph than them at the end of that straight, possibly alowing you to pass them.

Keep up with the instructors, you will learn something every session, even after you believe that you are Schumacher!!!

 

[nsxtasy]

After this escapade, I decided to get an instructor in my car.
.
.
.
3) I need a lot more time in the car with instructors.

I would suggest you sign up for events held by a different organization, events in which an instructor is in your car all the time until you have the experience to drive solo safely.

 

[CDub]

I went to the same event with Ryan. I'd have to say that it makes a lot more sense with some of the things that were mentioned by some of you track gurus. e.g. slow-in, fast-out, learn the line,

First of all, I totally agree with Ken's point about attending an event with one instructor per student. There were 6 or so instructors and were out numbered by the number of students in each run group by 3 to 1.

Since they didn't go through any technical skills, things that I've learned from this event without an instructor:

1> Memorize the track - without any prior track experience, things don't come naturally. Knowing what is coming up next is important. e.g. In Streets of willow, right after the back straight are a few s-turns that you can't see. I swapped end there because I was surprised by them while going in too hot.

2> Concentrate - Know the speed of the car, the gear you are in, and what's ahead.
e.g. what caused the spin was because all the previous sessions I was following other cars. I kept thinking that I could have been able to go faster without them. The last session they were mixing us with the advanced group and on the first lap, I had no cars in front or behind me. I was going way too fast on the back straight entering the s-turns on 3rd gear. When the s-turns appear in my face, it was too late to save it. I forgot to down shift before entering the turns.

3> Be consistent - I was just happy to be out there. So I was just out there braking and shifting whenever I felt like it. That's why I was entering the s-turns on 3rd. Why? I just didn't know better.

4> Get all the braking done before you make the turns and accellerate out of the turns.

5> Aim for the cones

6> Take it easy when the tires are cold.

I know that it may sound trivial to most, but for a beginner, I felt that it was important lesson to learn.

For those hot shoes out there on the streets, it'll be a humbling experience to be out on the track. Track driving demands respect. I tip my hat to those who do it and do it well!

 

[Lud]

A couple quick comments:

Another common mistake, in addition to trying to go into turns too fast in general, is that new drivers particularly go too fast into tight slow turns. They are more comfortable pushing the car to 10/10ths through a 35MPH turn but are afraid to go past 7/10th through a 100MPH sweeper. But there is little to gain going fast into a slow turn. The most important thing is to be fast OUT of a slow turn and onto a straight. After that, it is more important to be fast through a big sweeper than a slow turn that does not exit onto a major straightaway (that is a throw-away turn).

Try leaving the car in 3rd gear the whole time, particularly on a tight or technical track. Not having to think about shifting is a good way to focus on the line, braking, etc. There's no trophy at the end of the day so don't worry about it slowing you down. Then you can add shifting in later.

Most important: Have fun!

Ryan - I would leave the alignment and tires upgrades until down the road as you already mentioned about suspension changes. If your instructor said the car was neutral and you think it is oversteering, I believe you should work on your driving and not the car at this point. Sure everyone has a different style to a point but I believe you are not to that point yet. Changing the car to suit your driving at this point will simply be a crutch to cover up a problem with your technique. Once you have that down then yes, fiddling with alignment and tires is a good way to pick up more speed.

Just my humble opinion...

 

[2slow2speed]

Ryan - I would leave the alignment and tires upgrades until down the road as you already mentioned about suspension changes. If your instructor said the car was neutral and you think it is oversteering, I believe you should work on your driving and not the car at this point. Sure everyone has a different style to a point but I believe you are not to that point yet. Changing the car to suit your driving at this point will simply be a crutch to cover up a problem with your technique. Once you have that down then yes, fiddling with alignment and tires is a good way to pick up more speed.

Just my humble opinion...

Hi Lud,

I would normally agree about not making too many mods, but having less negative camber than stock on the rear actualy makes the NSX more prone to oversteer because it's closer to neutral, so it would be safer for Ryan to get his alignment checked and dial it in to the stock specs. From what I recall the stock specs should make the car understeer a bit more.

Like you stated not having to shift reduces complexity, and not being worried about oversteering should help Ryan concentrate better on other aspects of HPD.

Just my 2cents.

Ken

 

[Lud]

Mmm. I re-read it and saw he may not be at stock alignment to start with. I was skimming through before and did not catch that. It's definitely worth checking. I agree stock alignment is a good place to start if that's not where it is currently set. I would not change from stock so soon though.

 

[ryneen]

I'm pretty sure it's not stock just by looking at it. It looks like zero camber. The wheels are vertical. I can't tell how much toe-in I have by eyeballing it, but I bet it's not much since I got 16,000 miles out of the rear tires including 3 track events and 4 canyon runs.

All I can say is that the front is planted and the rear is loose. It begs to oversteer. I would be much happier with a little more of a neutral feeling or even a bit of understeer.

I'm going to get my alignment checked when I buy a set of S03's in a few weeks.

Ryan

 

[ryneen]

Need alignment help

I'm getting my Bridgeston S03's installed today (215/40/17, 265/35/18). I would like to get my alignment done before I go to Buttonwillow on Feb 8th. I have a few questions:

1) Do any of you know a good alignment shop in Orange County that is familiar with the NSX?
2) Is the '91 stock alignment specs the best recommendation, or is there another setting that is ideal? My NSX is my daily driver and I go to approximately 1 track event every other month.

Thanks,
Ryan

 

[NSXLuvr]

Ryneen,

by now you realize that the NSX has a significant learning curve on the track. I was in the same position as u when I first got the NSX. I took it to the track stock. I Spun out on my 3rd run session due to the dreaded "snap oversteer". I went to the hotel that night thinking maybe I should have bought the z06 instead. Then the next morning, I got one of the NSX instructors to drive the car around. Holy Molly, I was stunned by his ability to control the car. I came back home, looked up the prime and came to these conclusions:

1. The car is awesome, the driver sucks.
2. I need more track time(see #1). So far I have done only 3 events.
3. I will stay with the stock suspension for 4-5 events. Then I will start with ARB's and see how I do. IF my skill improve, then I will reward myself with Springs, and finally track rims and R1 compounds. I have already changed my brake fluid, and have upgraded my brake pads.

Remeber, at the end, we are there to have FUN. Most of us will never race professionally(Duarte, Hayashi, Andie among others excluded). So, my goal is to have fun first, get smoother, and quicker second.

Good luck.

 

[ryneen]

NSXluvr,
I agree with your post. However, my alignment specs are not stock and therefore are not optimal. I bought the car used and the settings I acquired are to help prolong tire life, not to help traction. I would like to get the car dialed to either the '91 or '93 stock specs.

I understand I need more track time in my NSX, and with all do respect, I don't need this advice anymore. However, it would be foolish to start driving the car with less than optimal alignment and poor tires.

1) Do any of you know a good alignment shop in Orange County that is familiar with the NSX?
2) Is the '91 stock alignment specs the best recommendation, or is there another setting that is ideal? My NSX is my daily driver and I go to approximately 1 track event every other month.

Thanks,
Ryan

 

[ncdogdoc]

Stock settings are ideal in this situation. Unless you have the original '91 service manual. all settings you will find at all shops will be the Honda updated settings, reducing toe in the rear. Still an excellent compromise for street and track.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Ryan, like Ken said, most "rookies" tend to be "fast-in slow-out" in learning how to take a corner. Work to be "slow-in fast-out" There are a few reasons why this is the way to drive...(1) it is safer! no 360 spins, no running out of room @ track out etc (2) if you can be "fast-out" vs another driver, you will have a few more mph than them at the end of that straight, possibly alowing you to pass them.]

Work to be fast in - fast out. In racing you need to be fast in or you will be out brake and passed.

Keep up with the instructors, you will learn something every session, even after you believe that you are Schumacher!!!

this is a very sound advice. I still take experienced driver out with me to hear their input any chance I have.

 

[kenjiMR]

All advice here is really good, but a mod that helped me was the steering wheel modification. The 91 OE steering wheel is heavy and sluggish in feel. I would suggest getting a smaller diameter aftermarket wheel with the appropriate hub. This should help your confidence in being able to correct faster and more accurately.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

Work to be fast in - fast out. In racing you need to be fast in or you will be out brake and passed.

We are talking rookie level here. With fast in, and fast out, we would have to cover trail braking, drifting, blocking, clobering the rumble strips @ track out etc!!!! I wanted to cover the rookie steps first.

But I do understand your point (I can't even get people to agree that a BBK is needed, so talking about full race skills here is a tough sell

 

[RP-Motorsports]

this is a very sound advice. I still take experienced driver out with me to hear their input any chance I have.

I constantly ask "quick" guys ideas on technical areas on a track. I also like to see where I gain on other advanced guys, and where I don't, and then I re-think my previous few corners prior and ask myself if I can improve my track-out speed at any of them.

You also have to set goals too. We know we can't be the fastest right out of the box, but if you can get a sec quicker each year, you (or your car ) have improved.

 

[ryneen]

I really like Bridgestone SO-3's. Not very expensive, great grip, handle well in the rain. They are not available in perfect stock sizes, but are available in good sizes for 17/18 wheels.

Docjohn and others,
I just ditched my Kumho Ecsta Supra's and got some 17/18" Bridgestone S03's. What tire pressures do you recommend for street and track usage?
Thanks,
Ryan

 

[docjohn]

I used to like a neutral to understearing car when I was starting out on street tires.I was happy with the so3's at ~40 lbs hot rear and 38 lbs hot front.But I would'nt get too hung up on tire pressures on a street car as long as you don't exceed the suggested max inflation pressure hot and you don't go below say 35 lbs hot.The so3 havs pretty stiff side walls anyway.fwiw.

 

[2slow2speed]

Docjohn and others,
I just ditched my Kumho Ecsta Supra's and got some 17/18" Bridgestone S03's. What tire pressures do you recommend for street and track usage?
Thanks,
Ryan

With my current suspension setup I run 34/36 cold and either 42/44 hot or 40/42 hot depending on the track temperatures.

BTW: 42/44 feels *very* slippery on a track that has surface temperatures that are high (100 degrees+)

(Used to run 36/34 prior to changing my rear sway bar settings in order to reduce oversteer..)

Whatever you do stick with the same Air Pressure gauge to measure tire pressures on your tires.

 

[2slow2speed]

I went to the same event with Ryan. I'd have to say that it makes a lot more sense with some of the things that were mentioned by some of you track gurus. e.g. slow-in, fast-out, learn the line,

First of all, I totally agree with Ken's point about attending an event with one instructor per student. There were 6 or so instructors and were out numbered by the number of students in each run group by 3 to 1.

Since they didn't go through any technical skills, things that I've learned from this event without an instructor:

1> Memorize the track - without any prior track experience, things don't come naturally. Knowing what is coming up next is important. e.g. In Streets of willow, right after the back straight are a few s-turns that you can't see. I swapped end there because I was surprised by them while going in too hot.

2> Concentrate - Know the speed of the car, the gear you are in, and what's ahead.
e.g. what caused the spin was because all the previous sessions I was following other cars. I kept thinking that I could have been able to go faster without them. The last session they were mixing us with the advanced group and on the first lap, I had no cars in front or behind me. I was going way too fast on the back straight entering the s-turns on 3rd gear. When the s-turns appear in my face, it was too late to save it. I forgot to down shift before entering the turns.

3> Be consistent - I was just happy to be out there. So I was just out there braking and shifting whenever I felt like it. That's why I was entering the s-turns on 3rd. Why? I just didn't know better.

4> Get all the braking done before you make the turns and accellerate out of the turns.

5> Aim for the cones

6> Take it easy when the tires are cold.

I know that it may sound trivial to most, but for a beginner, I felt that it was important lesson to learn.

For those hot shoes out there on the streets, it'll be a humbling experience to be out on the track. Track driving demands respect. I tip my hat to those who do it and do it well!

Chris and folks, after attending the 2 day event that SpeedTrial (West) held down at BW, all I can say is that all of you guys are better off running with a different group, you will learn more and will get more tracktime with other groups that are tailored more for Drivers Education who have dedicated instructors for beginners, and optional instruction for intermediates and advanced drivers.

I've run with about 8 different organizations, and I used to think that NASA HPDE's were the worst of the bunch, but now I know that it can get much worse..

I don't ever recall being in an event where people spun over 12+ times driving towards the front straight in a single day (Saturday) , and losing control and spinning inwards toward the wall, that's unheard of. Normally the entire group would be black flagged and told to sit out the session so that they can calm down and cool off, and get their act straight.

And I've never heard of an organization that does mock rolling race starts with newbies with over 25 cars on the track, that's really boneheaded considering that a lot of car to car contact can happen while folks try to move upfield.

Check the following website for a list of other organizers, there are others that are not listed as well:

http://www.opentracking.com/track_events.htm

Many of these event organizers will charge about 50% to 100% more but you will get 2x to 3x the tracktime. (I only had about 1:40 minutes worth of tracktime in 2 days!!, argh.. ) That is in comparison to the 3 hours of tracktime that I had on Friday at Laguna Seca on a single day. with almost no off track incidents, and *0* spins. And those guys were more consistent and faster than the folks at SpeedTrial.

It's a lot better to run with organizations that limits the number of cars to somewhere between 50 to 75 cars total per track event, things go a lot smoother and having dedicated instruction will be very beneficial for all of you. Not sticking to the schedule is a good indication of a poorly run organization, it's easy to make the schedule look good on paper but reality is rarely the same thing.

Ken

 

[nsxtasy]

It's a lot better to run with organizations that limits the number of cars to somewhere between 50 to 75 cars total per track event, things go a lot smoother and having dedicated instruction will be very beneficial for all of you. Not sticking to the schedule is a good indication of a poorly run organization, it's easy to make the schedule look good on paper but reality is rarely the same thing.

Different groups run track events in different ways. Ask around for recommendations. And think about your individual needs.

If you are a relative novice, then you will be looking for a group that emphasizes instruction, has lots of classroom time, puts an instructor in your passenger seat, etc. There are lots of groups like this out there. BMW CCA does an excellent job nationwide, as do the more expensive for-profit organizations. There are regional/local groups that do a good job as well.

If you are fairly experienced, you will be more interested in how much actual track time you get, the amount of traffic on the track, and the extent to which safety is emphasized and enforced. All of this will vary from one organization to another.

I don't know that sticking to the schedule per se is an indication of a poorly run event; however, the need to deviate from a published schedule is often due to shutting down the track to clean up an incident, and that is an indication of a poorly run event.

As for the number of participants, this is how it works. The number of participants equals (a) the number of run groups times (b) the number of participants per run group. (a) The number of run groups determines how much track time you get; with three run groups, you will get about one third of the total track time during the day, and with six run groups, you will get about one sixth of the total track time during the day. (b) The number of participants per run group determines how crowded the track is. As a general rule, 8-9 cars per mile of track (for example, 16-18 cars on a 2.0-mile track) allows enough spacing between cars to prevent them from bunching up for most of the track session. Much more than that, and you have too much traffic for the event to be fun.

Again, ask around for recommendations, and decide what works best for you...

 

[CDub]

First of all, thank you Ken for offering to give us rides, although I missed the one and only chance towards the end of the day.

Being lack of instructor was the reason it took me so long to decide whether to sign up or not. After reading the first half of the Skip Barber's "Going Faster" book, I went ahead and signed up hoping that the reading info is sufficient even if I wasn't able to grab an instructor, which I did. Again, they had around 6 instructors for a group of 25.

Although I agree with Ken S. that schedule delay could have been caused by accidents, but it wasn't the case yesterday.

Track time was enough for a newbie. So the amount of time is different from an advanced driver like Ken to us newbies.

I do intend to attend other events host by other organizations in the future. Just like a vegetarian tasting a hamberger for the first time. It's fine until you taste a porter house steak.

I want to thank Andrie, Aaron and Ken who shared your wisdom and track experience to help me prepare. Andrie, your recollection of the BW track is spot on!

 

[Ponyboy]

I don't ever recall being in an event where people spun over 12+ times driving towards the front straight in a single day (Saturday) , and losing control and spinning inwards toward the wall, that's unheard of. Normally the entire group would be black flagged and told to sit out the session so that they can calm down and cool off, and get their act straight.

That's CRAZY!!! I never seen that many spins in a DE event, a race perhaps, but not a DE event. Wow.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

I want to thank Andrie, Aaron and Ken who shared your wisdom and track experience to help me prepare. Andrie, your recollection of the BW track is spot on!

Thanks Chris.

I can pretty much run any track I've been to in my mind and put it in paper.