I need track handling help from an expert!

ryneen,

Just for your comparison information: at Streets of Willow which is the track you originally mentioned, my lap times in a bone stock Zanardi with 16/17" Azenis Sports street tires are consistantly around 1:32s. I am no pro driver by any means, nor do I think I fully drive 100% of my NSX's potential. Since your NSX is a 91 coupe, I probably have about a second or so advantage. Are we close on lap times?
 
I totally agree with everyones comments that I need more track time. I am not totally comfortable in my NSX yet and I know an experienced driver like yourselves could squeeze way more out of my car than I currently am. I want to greatly improve my cornering speeds. I'm a big fan of slow in/fast out, but the damn car doesn't stick enough from corner entry through exit. I'm certain it's primarily the tires, so I'll start there and add suspension mods after a few more track days. Should I run the Kumho Ecsta Supra's for awhile or should I ugrade to better tires now?

I'm going to the Streets of Willow Dec, 27. I'm going to try to get an instructor to show me the ropes. Are any of you going to the SpeedTrials USA event there?

Peter Mills and KenjiMr - What pressure did you run on your Kumho 712's on the track and on the street? I have 17/18" wheels with 215/40/17f x 265/35/18r.

DocJohn - To answer your question. My street wheels are OZ Superleggera 17/18" with Kumho Ecsta Supra tires. I would like to get some track wheels/tires. I can either use my stock 15/16" wheels with Falken Azenis' or Toyo RA 1's or I'm OK with buying some black Forgeline wheels with RA1's or equivalent. Any suggestions?

1BadNSX - What do you mean by "Dali Street/Track ARB's"?

Anyone - What's an ideal street/trackable suspension for me? Shocks, Springs, Sway bars, etc. I'll be looking to upgrade my suspension after 5-10 more track events.

Thanks again everyone,
Ryan Rush
 
ryneen said:
I'm certain it's primarily the tires, so I'll start there and add suspension mods after a few more track days. Should I run the Kumho Ecsta Supra's for awhile or should I ugrade to better tires now?

I'm going to the Streets of Willow Dec, 27. I'm going to try to get an instructor to show me the ropes. Are any of you going to the SpeedTrials USA event there?

Thanks again everyone,
Ryan Rush
Click to expand...

Hi Ryan,

Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but have you had the alignment on your car checked ever since you bought the car?

How much toe-in do you have on the rear? how much negative camber?

By default the early year NSXs had a very aggresive alignment settings that were great for handling but bad for tire wear.

Most of the owners who don't track their cars have changed the settings to be less aggresive to improve tire wear.
I suspect that the previous owner of your NSX might have done the same, that decreases the amount of traction provided by the rear tires substantially.

Check the rear tires, if the insides of the tires are not getting worn out about 1.3 to 1.5 times faster than the outside it usually means that your alignment settings are not that aggresive.

I suspect that when you say that the car does not stick that you are having grip or lack of traction issues on the rear tires.

The Kumho 712's are rated as AA in traction and A in temperature, so it's actually an ultra high performance tire so I doubt that it's the tire. George (maomaonsx) ran fast times on his NSX with the same Kumhos and had no problems keeping up and passing all kinds of Ferrari's at a Ferrari track event at Laguna Seca this past spring, he was faster than some of the F cars running R compounds.

Do you feel that the tire starts losing traction as you put more laps? Or do you feel that the amount of traction is the same throughout the entire session? If you start losing traction it usually means that the tires are heating up, so play with tire pressures. If the traction is the same (after your warm up lap) then it's something else.

Do you feel like the rear of the car is "sliding"/"drifting" as you go through the turns? Or do you feel the front end pushing/understeering?

Are you powering through the fast turns?

Do you lift on some of the slower and sharper turns to help the rear end of the car rotate before getting back on the power?

Do you feel that you are not going fast enough on decreasing radius turns, constant radius turns, big sweepers, tight set of turns?

Sorry for the many questions, but it's hard to be helpful without more details.

BTW: The 215/40 17's up front and 265/35 18's on the rear should give you plenty of traction, given that the contact patch is higher than stock, that's what I currently use on my NSX.

The OZ Racing Superleggera are relatively light for being cast wheels, but don't go over too many berms at the track because they will bend ;).

Safe driving..

Ken

-------------------------------------------------
I won't be able to make it to the Streets on the 27th, I'll be at Sears Point with NCRC.

I have the following events scheduled for January:

2nd Laguna Speedventures
3rd Laguna Unlimitedlaps
8th Sears GGLC
24th 25th Sears Speedventures.

Send me a PM if you are planning to attend any of the above mentioned events.
 
Last edited:
Ryan:
I used standard NSX pressure setting 33PSI Front 40PSI rear when I used the 712's.
Have you had an instructor at these track days you've attended?
If not...ask for one. You'll learn the proper cornering technique.
Please get back to us after your December 27th event. Let us know how you did.
 
Nimbus said:
ryneen,

Just for your comparison information: at Streets of Willow which is the track you originally mentioned, my lap times in a bone stock Zanardi with 16/17" Azenis Sports street tires are consistantly around 1:32s. I am no pro driver by any means, nor do I think I fully drive 100% of my NSX's potential. Since your NSX is a 91 coupe, I probably have about a second or so advantage. Are we close on lap times?
Click to expand...

Aaron,

A 1:32 with street tires is pretty fast for Streets ;)

Ken
 
Ken,
Thanks for the info. I'm not sure what my alignment is set at. I'm not wearing the inside of my rear wheels and I've got 15k miles out of my Kumho's with 2 track events as well. I would say that I have good front traction but poor rear traction. The car definately oversteers. The thing that bothers me is that I cannot maintain good cornering speeds. Just not enough grip. Miata's are all over my ass in the corners. I'm fairly smooth, but I just cannot maintain traction at speed. Like I said, I'm not a great driver, but I know the car should be able to maintain better cornering speeds. The car feels better on large fast turns, than tight slow turns.
Ryan
 
I agree with what kenjiMR says about the 712s, but I suspect going with a different tire would make a huge difference. I had 712s on my car last year and do not think they performed nearly as well as stock tires (either Yokohamas or Bridgestone) do. I thought the stock tires performed much better. I was able to compare back to back and the difference was very noticable, even on the street. I am a novice on the track, but last year, an instructor at a HPDE commented on how my NSX did not handle like a stock NSX should, refering to the 712's low level of grip, compared to stock tires.
 
ryneen said:
Ken,
Thanks for the info. I'm not sure what my alignment is set at. I'm not wearing the inside of my rear wheels and I've got 15k miles out of my Kumho's with 2 track events as well. I would say that I have good front traction but poor rear traction. The car definately oversteers. The thing that bothers me is that I cannot maintain good cornering speeds. Just not enough grip. Miata's are all over my ass in the corners. I'm fairly smooth, but I just cannot maintain traction at speed. Like I said, I'm not a great driver, but I know the car should be able to maintain better cornering speeds. The car feels better on large fast turns, thantight slow turns.
Ryan
Click to expand...

Hi Ryan,

The stock alignment settings for the rear of a 91 was:

Total toe: 6mm +/- 1mm
Camber: -1 deg 30 min +/- 30min (-1.5 deg +/- 0.5 deg)

For the 93+ they were changed to:

Total toe: 4mm +/- 1mm*
Camber: -1 deg 30 min +/- 30min (-1.5 deg +/- 0.5 deg)

This is per the FAQ.

--------------------------------------------------

My alignment settings for the rear of my NSX are: 4mm toe in and Negative 2.2 degrees in camber, so I am in the high end of the 93+ settings as far as camber goes (more grip). The insides of my rear tires wear out faster than the outside, when my tires reach the wear markers on the outside, the inside of my rears show almost no tread left, this is with driving to and from track events + driving at the events.

The lack of negative camber will make a substantial difference on how much grip the rear end of your car will have as it goes through the turns.

Take a peek at the FAQ:
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/TireWheel/alignment.htm

BTW: You can visually tell that your rears have negative camber by taking a look at the rear of the car.

wheels with negative camber will look like:

/ --------------- \
L+++++++++++R

Of course it won't be as pronounced as in my lame attempt at ASCII art but you probably get the idea and you
should be able to tell if the wheels look like:

|------------------|
L +++++++++ R

Try to find a reputable shop that is familiar about alignments on the NSX. Almost any shop will be able to measure the alignment but only a few of the shops will know about the procedures that are needed to adjust it properly.

BTW: You probably want to get used to having the Miata's on the back of your car through the turns, in general they are great handling cars that are light and well balanced.

A good driver on a Miata with R compounds can probably generate times that are comparable to a good driver on a NSX on a short course where raw horsepower is not a factor.

Check the following site for laptime referencess:

http://www.speedventures.net/event_results_db.asp?

Finally, the other factor to consider is the "age" of the tires, 15k miles on a set of tires is a lot of miles. Depending on the material used on the tires, the inner layers might be harder than the outer layer or vice versa, it's kind of hard to tell.

One last thing, don't be fooled by Aaron's (Nimbus), he is a pretty good driver (and very humble) as you can see from Speedventures laptimes, a 1:33 at the streets with street tires is quite fast..

Ken
 
Last edited:
2slow2speed said:
The stock alignment settings for the rear of a 91 was:
.
.
.
For the 93+ they were changed to:
.
.
.
This is per the FAQ.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify - when the settings were changed, they were made retroactive for all years. So there are not different recommendations for different model years of the NSX.

However, you can decide which settings to use, regardless of the year of your NSX. You can use the original settings for a bit more precise handling, at the expense of rear tire wear, or you can used the revised settings for a bit less rear tire wear, at the expense of slightly less precise handling. You can use even less rear toe than the revised settings, depending on your preference for the trade-off between handling and treadwear.

I use the original settings for my well-tracked NSX and the rear tires wear uniformly across the tread.
 
nsxtasy said:

I use the original settings for my well-tracked NSX and the rear tires wear uniformly across the tread.
Click to expand...

nsxtasy,

Just wondering, How much actual negative camber do you use?

Since the original recommendations is -1.5 +/- 0.5 degrees you can be at -1.0 and still be within spec. But there is a difference in handling between that and -2.0 degrees..

Ken
 
Ken YOU don't know your own alignment settings:p This is surely a sign of the apocalipse or maybe cats and dogs living together:D
 
ncdogdoc said:
If you are cooking stock brakes, then you are braking too much (not a joke, but improper technique), or using the wrong materials.

BBK for $1500? Maybe used, but you still have to buy big wheels and tires. I still stand by my $5 grand total estimate.
Click to expand...

You must brake real early, and feather them if you don't cook them, or you only run short courses. Courses with straight speeds in excess of 120mph, you will toast a stock setup.

The Stoptech BBK BRAND NEW is as low as $1500 and up to $1800 depending where purchased. As far as big wheels, you can get a track set with tires for around $1000 so that is about $2500 total or 1/2 of your estimate.

Lastly, I agree with getting experience on the track, but every sports car I have ever driven with stock brakes, fade. So if you are trying to "learn" you shouldn't have to worry about inconsistant braking points, due to brake fade etc, not to mention safety. Get the brakes first! I can count hundreds of beginner incidents that were due to brake fade. I saw a guy roll his car, cause of fade @ turn 12 (RA) because he couldn't stop after braking at his normal marker due to fade. Instead of going straight into the litter (as an experienced driver would), a rookie has a tendancy to try to turn. He did this carrying too much speed, and slid sideways into the litter causeing a roll.

I still completly stand behind the order of brakes first, then shocks/springs. After you become pretty comfortable with your car, look at R-compounds and learn their characteristics slowly. Then after that, you are ready for the performance.
 
T Bell,

I have to take issue with two of your statements. Braking early, and or feathering will cook your brakes much worse than waiting until the last second, using them to the max, and then getting off the brakes. Heat is generated over time, not just by pressure. I brake from over 140mph twice in one lap (the second time down to 50mph, and from 125mph down to 35-40mph in between. This is a track with sixteen turns and very noticeable elevation changes (VIR). I cannot speak for the Integra. I have heard that they are severely underbraked in their stock configuration (not ITR), and even with really good pads can be overdriven.

As far as track wheels, have you been reading the thread on Stoptech wheel fitment. So far they have not found a single one-piece wheel that will fit this setup for the NSX.

I am not trying to flame anybody, but the NSX brakes with appropriate pads, fluid and cooled rotors will be fine for all but the most aggressive tracks. The DAL car in the Grand Am series HAS to run stock brake sizes due to regulatory constraints, and it was not the brakes that went out at Daytona.
 
docjohn said:
Ken YOU don't know your own alignment settings:p This is surely a sign of the apocalipse or maybe cats and dogs living together:D
Click to expand...

Watch it John, it is politically correct for cats and dogs to live together nowadays, even in the south:D
 
Don't know about braking early having to do with cooking brakes but I know that I have cooked my stock set up - using the "brake hard but brake short" method. So much so that I had to "lap" the pits at several events to keep air moving to the rotors - which made me the laughing stock from several of my cohorts. Even then the brakes would get so hot that moving the car a few feet back to move the caliper covered part of the rotor was necessary. God forbid you brake into the pits or the pad material transfer would cause your rotors to warp. Of course, 100+ temperature days in Oklahoma does nothing to allievate the problem. All this to say, it happens. Honestly, it really does. And yes, the DAL NSX does use stock brakes effectively and ER swears by them. But they ARE a lot lighter than 99% of us run. That counts for a lot.

Before, I used to worry about them after every session. Now, I won't have to.
 
Shawn,

Were you using stock pads? I would believe you completely if that was the case.
 
I don't remember exactly which one - I suffer bulemic memory and don't remember what I did yesterday sometimes - but I alternated b/t Carbotech Panther +'s, Porterfield R4S, and an older Cobalt track pad.

In addition, I'd check my brake fluid the week following the events and I'd always...ALWAYS...have bubbles in the lines. Sometimes a lot sometimes not so much. Had my mechanic do it once just to make sure it wasn't me introducing air in the system.

This makes me wish I had kept some detailed notes!
 
ryneen said:
Help. I absolutely love my nearly stock '91 NSX, however it's very frustrating when I go to Willow Springs (streets) and I can't get past (or worse... get passed) by M3's, WRX's, Boxters and God forsake a damn Miata with a stock motor and R compound tires!!!

My driving skills are pretty solid. I've been to Skip Barber's 3 day racing school and I competitively race Go Karts once per month in a 6hr enduro (on a team with 3 other drivers). I feel very comfortable in my rear engine NSX. However, it needs better handling. I would like to be able to comfortably hang with 911's and Modena's without having to add F.I.
Click to expand...

The Streets of Willow is a technical, handling type of course. A well-prepared Miata with R tires and a good driver can easily be on the ass of much more powerful cars.

I would do the following:

1. Agressive Alignment

2. Kumho Victoracers [On Edit: for R tires that you could drive to track on)

3. Get a "reliable" instructor to drive your car with you as a passenger. Go for a ride with a "reliable" instructor in THEIR car, so you can see what it should feel like. You will be shocked.

4. Stop. Take deep breath. Are your shocks the stock ones that are 12 years old? If so, they probably need to be replaced. Now you have a tough decision point, as once you start going to aftermarket shocks, as now you start to wander into the springs/beams/swaybars/camber kits/2x and 3x adjustible shocks/wing/splitter, and then you will be stuck hiring someone to figure out how to make all these variables work properly. :)

-Doug
You're gonna end up in the rathole like the rest of us! :D

p.s. It will cost you BIG bucks to try to hang with a Modena if you don't have forced induction.
 
Last edited:
ncdogdoc said:
Chris sells the project Mu's at SOS. Stoptech may or may not still sell their setup, check with them or with Dali, as Mark carries most of Stoptech's catalog.

Hopefully if I have my way and some time, there will be another option for both early and later model NSX's, and it will not be as expensive. But I do not want to promise what I do not have yet.

I have not rebuilt my calipers YET, but plan to do that before the season starts this spring.
Click to expand...

Cool. I just saw your reply. Thanks for the info. If my budget doesn't allow for BBK, I'm definitely going to look into this option.
 
ncdogdoc said:
T Bell,

I have to take issue with two of your statements. Braking early, and or feathering will cook your brakes much worse than waiting until the last second, using them to the max, and then getting off the brakes. Heat is generated over time, not just by pressure. I brake from over 140mph twice in one lap (the second time down to 50mph, and from 125mph down to 35-40mph in between. This is a track with sixteen turns and very noticeable elevation changes (VIR). I cannot speak for the Integra. I have heard that they are severely underbraked in their stock configuration (not ITR), and even with really good pads can be overdriven.

As far as track wheels, have you been reading the thread on Stoptech wheel fitment. So far they have not found a single one-piece wheel that will fit this setup for the NSX.

I am not trying to flame anybody, but the NSX brakes with appropriate pads, fluid and cooled rotors will be fine for all but the most aggressive tracks. The DAL car in the Grand Am series HAS to run stock brake sizes due to regulatory constraints, and it was not the brakes that went out at Daytona.
Click to expand...

Well my friend has wheels on his NSX with the stop techs?????

My Integra (and driving style) was still underbraked with 13" slotted rotors with 4 piston Wilwood calipers. The stockers couldn't handle driving to the grocery store! I drove other stock braked cars than just the Integra.

I think you are missing the point on fading. The DAL car didn't have brake failure, but they do fade, and would be faster IF they had big brakes. You think they wouldn't get them if rules allowed it? They would be a fool not to. Also you maybe can run your OEM brake equipped NSX just fine, but I would beat you every time in a 30 min session with a BBK equipped NSX. Do you want to be fast? or faster? To each their own.
 
Thanks for your valuable input everyone. I'm a bit overwhelmed with my options, but I think I'm going to do the following:

1) Learn to drive my NSX better and try to get as comfortable with it as I am with my Kart. Maybe get an instructor.
2) Replace my Kumho Ecsta Supra tires with Bridgestone S03's for street use.
3) Replace my stock shocks and springs with an adjustable setup (any final recommendation anyone?)

Regards,
Ryan
 
ryneen said:
3) Replace my stock shocks and springs with an adjustable setup (any final recommendation anyone?)
Click to expand...
That depends on what you're willing to live with for ride comfort on the street. There are all kinds of setups. A lot of folks like the Bilstein shocks with the stock springs, which also have an optional perch that allows you to lower the car if you like. That is a great compromise setup, which is comfortable on the street, but firms up nicely on the track - just like the stock shocks, if you've had a chance to drive with those when they were new. You can go to aftermarket springs and/or adjustable Koni shocks, which will reduce ride comfort on the street (even on the softest setting), or a full-blown coilover setup. It all depends on your comfort level (pun intended) in the trade-off between handling and comfort. And how much you're willing to spend, of course.
 

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