I need track handling help from an expert!

[ryneen]

Help. I absolutely love my nearly stock '91 NSX, however it's very frustrating when I go to Willow Springs (streets) and I can't get past (or worse... get passed) by M3's, WRX's, Boxters and God forsake a damn Miata with a stock motor and R compound tires!!!

My driving skills are pretty solid. I've been to Skip Barber's 3 day racing school and I competitively race Go Karts once per month in a 6hr enduro (on a team with 3 other drivers). I feel very comfortable in my rear engine NSX. However, it needs better handling. I would like to be able to comfortably hang with 911's and Modena's without having to add F.I.

I would like to humbly ask for help in building my daily driver into a much better handling car. Thanks in advance.

Here are my concerns:
1) My NSX is my daily driver and I want to upgrade the handling & performance without destroying too much of the ride quality. (I have a wife to keep happy).
2) The only thing I've done is upgrade the brake lines to stainless and replaced the brake fluid with high temp brake fluid (not sure which brand, but I believe the temp limit was 500degrees?). I replaced the rotors with OE size drilled Brembo's with Brembo pads. I also added Dali air deflectors to the front brakes.
3) I want to buy some "track only" wheels and tires that are street legal so I can drive them to/from the track only. Does anyone have any suggestions on ideal wheel size as well as tire choice?
4) What do you recommend in regards to aftermarket suspension components? Remember, I don't want a rock hard setup like the Comptech Pro because it is my daily driver.

Thanks a ton for your time,
Ryan Rush

 

[Peter Mills]

Becareful Ryan. Every change you make favoring the "track" you take away as a daily driver. For the pass three years I've stayed with a stock set-up on my 97 NSX and like you was passed by everyone from VW's to Ferrari's. This past spring I decided to make the change and improve the NSX's suspension.
1. Replaced the rear beam and toe links with comptech. Gives predictable on track performance. No unloading of rubber bushings to surprise you in the corners.
2. Installed Comptech front camber plates, keeps the toe from changing under heavy track braking.
3. Installed Comptech sway bars front and rear.
4. Installed AP Racing brakes 13" rotors
5. When to 17 / 18 wheels
6. Using shaved Toyo RA-1 (235/40/17F 275/35/18R ) as track rubber.
I've also done 100 track days since 1999 and my driving skills have improved a bit.
This spring we're installing Comptech's Pro Suspension. That
will be the last mod I do.
My wife senses all the changes I've made in the car. She says I've ruined the ride of the car. I think it's fine. If you have any questions private me.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

Right off the bat, get adjustable shocks and track tires. This will make a HUGE diff at the track!!!! You will be able to set the shocks back to "soft" for your wife. Also getting a BBK will not change the street feel, but will greatly increase performance AND safety at the track. You will not believe the difference in your car after a simple adj shock/tire change. Good luck!

 

[Nimbus]

I say just keep getting more seat time at the tracks. I doubt you are anywhere near the limits of the NSX if you're getting passed by inferior handling cars. Jump in with a driver that's faster than you next time as a passenger, and see why they are much faster than you when you think you've gone the fastest you could in your NSX already.

 

[kenjiMR]

Get a cheap disposable car such as old Miata or 85-89 MR2 and flog the car without worrying of crashing.
That helps you learn to drive smooth and carry speed through turns. The NSX is still way too fast for me to extract its full potential, but I definitely have a lot more confidence by driving slower cars at the track.

 

[ncdogdoc]

You will feel inadequate next to those guys with R compound tires. They can just blow through corners much better than you can with street tires. A good driver with good tires and a light car (Miata, E30 M3) can outrun you in most parts of the track except the straights. It is just a different kind of beast, and does things better in some areas, worse in others. Nothing to be worried about.

Everyone is right about making your street car a track car. If you are really serious, get better pads and rotors, buy a cheap set of OEM five spokes and put Kuhmos on them, or Toyo/Yoko if you want tread their entire useful life. (There is a section in the FAQ about packing four track tires in the NSX so you do not have to drive on your R compounds) You should be really comfortable with street tires before changing to R compounds, but once you do, you will never go back!

There are lots of different opinions on suspensions. A larger anti-sway bar in the front and better shocks with "linear" springs instead of progressive will give you a lot of confidence in the corners and esses. You do not need a big brake kit and the $5-6 grand total cost it entails. Use the money you saved for more DE events!!

 

[ncdogdoc]

BTW, the Comptech Pro suspension is not rock hard. It is not any rougher than my Koni/Eibach setup in my street car. This is by far the best and easiest upgrade to the NSX for the track. You can always use less stiff springs if the stock 1000/600 is too much. Springs only run ~$50 each. JMHO.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

You do not need a big brake kit and the $5-6 grand total cost it entails. Use the money you saved for more DE events!!

$1500 for the complete Stoptech BBK

The first thing anyone should get for their car when going to the track is brakes, followed by suspension, followed by tires, and the last thing to buy is power adders.

I learned the hard way when I started 10 yrs ago!!! I did them in reverse!!! Not the way to start

 

[ryneen]

Thanks for the input:

Can anyone recommend a new suspension setup (shocks/springs/sway bars etc) that is still streetable and comfortable but can be adjusted for the track?

How would you compare the the Compteck Sport suspension to the Comptech Pro to Tein's?

What are the best R compound tires for track use? What size have people had success with. I would assume wider is better?

Ryan

 

[DONYMO]

The first thing anyone should get for their car when going to the track is brakes...

This is not really true.
The stock brakes are fine as long as you flush the brake system with new high-temp fluid before each event, remove the dust sheilds, use a good brake pad like Carbotech Panther Plus, and larger air deflectors.

I ran this setup for 2 years and NEVER faded the brakes, and I used the brakes pretty hard. NSXNUT and NCDOGDOC have the same experience...and they REALLY brake heavily and deeply and never fade.

My new NSX had the AP Racing bbk on it when I bought it.
There are DEFINITE disadvantages : you need big wheels, big tires, big brake pads, big rotors, etc. Basically, it is a VICIOUS cycle of big expenses that never seems to end.

 

[1BADNSX]

This is simple. Make sure the brakes are adequate (good pad, fluid, and cooling). Only make two mods: Dali Street/Track ARB's and Toyo RA1's. After these changes if you are still getting passed by more than a few cars the NSX isn't the problem.

Bob

 

[nsxtasy]

I agree with Gary(ncdogdoc), Aaron (Nimbus) and Kenji, getting more track time on the NSX is probably the way to go before investing more on the car.

I agree as well. Beginners such as yourself (and with 2-3 track events, you're still a beginner) too often blame the car. It's not the car, it's the driver! There's no shame in that. Everyone was slow when starting out. The proof is in the cars that are passing you. I bet you twenty bucks that the people driving the Boxsters, Miata, and WRXs that are passing you all have lots more track experience than you do. Someone with 30-40 track events can hop into a slow car and easily pass someone in a much faster car with 2-3 track events. It happens all the time (except that they usually put you in different run groups based on experience, not on the car - which proves the point).

If you do mods to your car, it won't make any difference. Right now you are nowhere near the limits of your car's capabilities. So even if you increase those capabilities, it won't make you faster. There is no substitute for seat time. So save your money on those mods, and spend it on doing more events. Once you build up lots of experience, you will probably be able to pass most of those others even in a bone stock NSX.

 

[Ponyboy]

I agree. Though it seems you have some experience, I think it's the driver...and tires. Which is nothing to ashamed of! A lot, if not all, of the fun in OTing is developing your talent and ability. Just make sure your suspension and mechanics are in good working order and practice basic techniques as perfectly as you can during regular driving and DE's (i.e. looking ahead and heel & toeing, etc.). Don't be hard so hard on yourself...remember you're having fun.

 

[steveny]

Someone here on Prime said:
"The best way to make the NSX faster is to upgrade the nut behind the wheel."
Makes a lot of sense if you ask me.

 

[ncdogdoc]

If you are cooking stock brakes, then you are braking too much (not a joke, but improper technique), or using the wrong materials. I run Panther Plus pads and Ford Super Duty DOT3 brake fluid. After changing to aluminum hat rotors (Project Mu - like the Stoptech setup but available front and rear), my front rotor temps dropped over 150 degrees F. I ran this setup on the red car and had no problems. Ran it everywhere, not just VIR. The stock brakes on this car are great if you treat them right!

BBK for $1500? Maybe used, but you still have to buy big wheels and tires. I still stand by my $5 grand total estimate.

 

[kenjiMR]

If you are cooking stock brakes, then you are braking too much (not a joke, but improper technique), or using the wrong materials. I run Panther Plus pads and Ford Super Duty DOT3 brake fluid. After changing to aluminum hat rotors (Project Mu - like the Stoptech setup but available front and rear), my front rotor temps dropped over 150 degrees F. I ran this setup on the red car and had no problems. Ran it everywhere, not just VIR. The stock brakes on this car are great if you treat them right!

BBK for $1500? Maybe used, but you still have to buy big wheels and tires. I still stand by my $5 grand total estimate.

Interesting... where can I pick up some of these hatted OE sized rotors? Btw, do you greese your caliper pistons whenever you change the pads? I have a feeling since my calipers are 9 years old now, I should be concerned with mechanical issues.

 

[the nsxnut]

Hicks' Brakes, you ask?...

How far can you go with 'stock' brakes?

My current config:
OE calipers
OE size slotted rotors
Carbotech P+ pads
Goodridge SS lines, all 4 wheels
Motul RBF 600 fluid (dry boiling point: 600F)
Remove OE dust shields on all 4 wheels
Add Dali air deflectors
Kumho victoracers (tires have a big effect on brake performance)

I CAREFULLY heat cycle pads and rotors whenever they get changed. It makes a HUGE difference in performance and life.

This set-up continues to be adequate for myself and Maria. We both enjoy late braking past Porsches and BMWs . We continuously double-stint the car at track events, and experience no significant fade. 2 weeks ago at VIR (LONG straights), we were hauling it down from nearly 150mph, twice a lap. Brake temps of 450+degrees are present, but the pads, rotors and fluid are rated for that service level. I have been running this set-up for almost 2 years/25+ track events, and remain unconvinced of the necessity to spend BIG $ on a BBK. It is fair to say that I am probably at the limits of what this brake pkg is capable of, and any additional horsepower from tweaking my BBSC will probably require some additional stopping power...

One key to effective braking, and I'm sure some will disagree, but, some experts say: get on 'em HARD, and get off 'em quick (aka threshold braking)! 1.5 secs of 100% braking effort is much more effective than 3 secs of moderate braking... but, this thread is not about braking, rather, what can you do to a stock car... I have run with NSXs on the track with BBKs that do not appear to have an advantage over my set-up. FWIW, YMMV, JMHO, this won't apply to all drivers.

 

[ncdogdoc]

Interesting... where can I pick up some of these hatted OE sized rotors? Btw, do you greese your caliper pistons whenever you change the pads? I have a feeling since my calipers are 9 years old now, I should be concerned with mechanical issues.

Chris sells the project Mu's at SOS. Stoptech may or may not still sell their setup, check with them or with Dali, as Mark carries most of Stoptech's catalog.

Hopefully if I have my way and some time, there will be another option for both early and later model NSX's, and it will not be as expensive. But I do not want to promise what I do not have yet.

I have not rebuilt my calipers YET, but plan to do that before the season starts this spring.

 

[docjohn]

Some good advice on this thread.My thoughts on this Question posed by ryneen,how do we know how good you are at track driving,I have no idea.I can only say that a stock nsx on street tires should be able to keep up with most of the cars mentioned.Doing some pro schools and carting may make you a better more informed driver,but not nessesarily faster in your nsx.Only seat time in your nsx with an instructer level driver and lots of laps will make you faster.If you have instructers saying (as they check you out) you are driving at the limmits of this car or your times are in keeping with what a good fast driver is capable of then yes its time to upgrade stuff.But I was stock for two seasons and Peter Mills had been stock for at least as long.I can tell you that I'm quick in my car,but if I hopped into someone elses or another make of car I won't be as quick,its all about familliarity with your machine,why I say that is because your carting and school cars don't help you go faster in your nsx,only practice in your nsx will do that.Last season Pete and I were at lime rock a short tricky momentum track.We both had toyo ra1 me with zanardi springs and koni shocks and most of the other mods Pete has,there was a young fellow who had just bought a well used 91 very stock 100k miles car and to my amusement and amazement was able to keep pace with us.I followed him and watched as his car was at the limmits all the way around and beyond!After the session I learned that he is a national level scca open wheel driver looking for sponshorship,so there you have it.if you are at that level then I would suggest Zanardi /koni or other well matched setup with stiffer bars and rear non compliance goodies.Ra1's are a good choice for tire.I agree that well ventilated stock size brakes with hbp fluid and track pads can take you very far,I also agree that alot of folks who claim the stock brakes are weak are probably overheating thier brakes by dragging the pads ie. braking too long.Good luck!

 

[ryneen]

Docjohn,
I think you're input/advice is excellent. I agree with everything. I do feel I'm an excellent driver in my Go Kart (my 6hr endurance team recently finished 3rd out of 22 teams in our 12 month series). I'm fairly comfortable in my NSX, but obviously not nearly as comfortable as my Kart. I'm still a bit sketchy and not very consistent yet.

I'm used to breaking late and hard and my NSX breaks never fade. I'm good at heel/toeing with the stock pedals. I'm good at studying the track and working one corner at a time until I feel comfortable and quick. My problem is that I cannot maintain the cornering speeds I would expect out of the car. I bought the car with Kumho Ecsta Supra tires (17/18" combo) and I believe this is a large portion of the problem. I don't know much about the tire, but I'm assuming they are not the best handling street tire available. Perhaps someone can confirm this and recommend a good tire/wheel combo. I'm interested in buying some new wheels and tires first, then upgrading the suspension after I get comfortable with the new tires. Any rocommendations??

 

[ncdogdoc]

........ I bought the car with Kumho Ecsta Supra tires (17/18" combo) and I believe this is a large portion of the problem. I don't know much about the tire, but I'm assuming they are not the best handling street tire available. Perhaps someone can confirm this and recommend a good tire/wheel combo. I'm interested in buying some new wheels and tires first, then upgrading the suspension after I get comfortable with the new tires. Any rocommendations??

I really like Bridgestone SO-3's. Not very expensive, great grip, handle well in the rain. They are not available in perfect stock sizes, but are available in good sizes for 17/18 wheels.

If you had the stock 16/17's, then the OEM Bridgestones or Yokohamas make great track tires, but will wear a little faster than the SO-3's, so will be more expensive.

Michelin Pilot Sports are great tires but much more expensive.

HTH

 

[Peter Mills]

Just to put in my $.02.
In 2001 my track rubber was Michelin Pilot Sports and I wasn't happy. The side walls are very plyable and required 10% more air pressure that stock( 37 F 44R ).
In 2002 I used Kumho 712, much stiffer side wall, better grip, better tire life and less expensive.
In 2003 like DocJohn said I used Toyo RA-1 shaved to 4/32. Love them tires!!!! I run tham at 33psi on all corners.
I did 10 tracks days on one set at Watkins Glen and Mosport and I'm starting 2004 with the same tires. Toyo claims that the RA-1's have unlimited heat cycle capability which so far has proved correct.
Blake Smith, an instructor friend, states that he can make a student an excellent HPDE/ race driver in three years on street tires and five years on Track tires. Learning on street rubber is very important as the tires will talk to you letting you know when they're reaching their limits. Track rubber is very quiet, until its too late.
In my previous reply to this thread, after I listed my suspension mods, I mentioned that I had one hundred (100) track days under my belt. That's 100 track days in my NSX. Experience is the best teacher and it's fun!

 

[nsxtasy]

The Kumho Ecsta Supra 712 is a budget street tire. It is not up to the demands of the track. End of story.

I think the OEM tires (Yokohama A022H and Bridgestone RE010) are excellent tires for combined street and track use. However, they are only available in the OEM sizes, none for your 17"/18" wheels.

Get a set of '91-93 stock wheels for track use. You can often find a less than pristine set for under $200. If you want to put street tires on them, get the OEM tires. If you want to put track tires on them, there are lots of good track tires in the stock '91-93 sizes. You can fit the track tires inside the car if you are driving to the track alone.

I think some of the brake advice above is good, and some of it is not true at all... but this topic wasn't about brakes to begin with. If you want good brake advice, check out the article in the most recent issue of NSX Driver (the newsletter of the NSX Club of America), the one with the cover story entitled "0 to 60 Modifications ...in under 3 months". There's a long article on prepping your brake system for track use.

 

[kenjiMR]

The Kumho Ecsta Supra 712 is a budget street tire. It is not up to the demands of the track. End of story.

712s may not be the best tire in the world, but they are good enough for track use if necessary. I ran 5+ track events on a set of 712s and they were fine. Of course I didn't have ultimate grip and they also got greasy after 10-15 minutes, but still ok tire to learn on.

 

[docjohn]

If you have a 17/18 wheel set and want to only use 1 tire wheel combo then get the so3's.BTW what wheels do you have?Also you have to remember that since the nsx is your daily driver and it is an expensive piece of Aluminum art to fix I bet your unconcious brain is sending speed governing slowdown signals to your feet!No harm in that.Remember though chances are that somewhere in your track life you will spin the car!So there are alot of issues that play into your original ? of wanting to go faster.If all you want is better mechanical grip and you know what and how that is achieved then you need to know where your alignment is currently and how old are your shocks,and please toss those mediocer tires.