How good is the NSX? really.

[nsxnut]

I agree with Billy.

I go to the track frequently. My car is still street legal.
I am an instructor. I have been in a wide verity of track prepared cars and street cars.

A few years ago my car was down waiting on a Tilton clutch.
I debated about getting another car. For the equivalent money I could not think of another car that was better suited than my nsx.

My car is fairly modified, most would consider my car not street able.
There is more I can do.

Currently I can get around almost any car on track "street or race".

As previously noted there are some shortcomings that need to be addressed.

Another thing to consider is reliability. I have 115k miles and more than 125 track days on the motor.
It’s now time for a rebuild. I think you would be lucky to get 1/2 amount of time on a motor from other cars.
My motor has a CT 9lb supercharger. Not to aggressive.

My car has more to offer.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I agree with Billy.

I go to the track frequently. My car is still street legal.
I am an instructor. I have been in a wide verity of track prepared cars and street cars.

A few years ago my car was down waiting on a Tilton clutch.
I debated about getting another car. For the equivalent money I could not think of another car that was better suited than my nsx.

My car is fairly modified, most would consider my car not street able.
There is more I can do.

Currently I can get around almost any car on track "street or race".

As previously noted there are some shortcomings that need to be addressed.

Another thing to consider is reliability. I have 115k miles and more than 125 track days on the motor.
It’s now time for a rebuild. I think you would be lucky to get 1/2 amount of time on a motor from other cars.
My motor has a CT 9lb supercharger. Not to aggressive.

My car has more to offer.

What are you running for safety gear?

 

[CL65 Captain]

Dave I think the answer to your dilemma is keep the NSX as a 5 day a year HPDE car as-is and buy a Spec Miata too.

First off, you can get a Spec Miata that is already built and ready to go. Secondly, you learn ALOT more driving a car that has proper safety gear and isn't $45k+ and you aren't so concerned about wrecking. And finally, they're fun cars to run on a track, there is a wealth of knowledge about setup, etc and a good market when/if you want to get out.

But --- be prepared for spending $$$ on a trailer, tow vehicle, and lots and lots of tires. :wink:

BTW: You will get to the point where you are a good enough driver and plateau in your learning where the risk/reward ratio to get over that hump in the NSX is too great and you will either stall out or find a "disposable" car to get to the next level accepting the risk. For example if you are driving 8/10ths in the NSX the risk to go to 9/10 may not be acceptable. However, if you have a miata or Integra, etc you don't mind the 9/10ths risk or 10/10ths. Or borrow someone else's car.

 

[Mike-san]

Dave, My unsolicited, non track experience advice :

Yank the CTSC off your NSX and sell the car as a still pristine, low mileage NSX.
Take the cash from the NSX sale and buy an Audi R-8 to scratch your exotic/fast/nice car itch.
Get an early 90's NSX for 25 K or less, stick your CTSC on that, and make it your track rat.
The NSX is the only production car on the planet that had Senna's imput regarding design---That still counts for something !!!
(You do have a 3 car garage right ? )

 

[TURBO2GO]

I just looked at some SM classifieds... man their parts are cheap. $400 for a rollcage, $1900 for a motor.... even an enclosed trailer for $5000.

 

[W]

Yes you can modify the car, but John made a great point: When it comes to real performance, the days of "tinkering" are over. A factory effort with the kind of technology available is just far superior. The DIY guy is really playing more than he is making a real difference.

Please provide some examples of what you mean because how I interpret this statement I highly disagree with you. Are you saying a modern factory stock car is far superior to an older car modded? If so, it's not even close the other way around. I need to understand what you classify as tinkering and far superior how.

 

[Mac Attack]

Dave, My unsolicited, non track experience advice :

Yank the CTSC off your NSX and sell the car as a still pristine, low mileage NSX.
Take the cash from the NSX sale and buy an Audi R-8 to scratch your exotic/fast/nice car itch.
Get an early 90's NSX for 25 K or less, stick your CTSC on that, and make it your track rat.
The NSX is the only production car on the planet that had Senna's imput regarding design---That still counts for something !!!
(You do have a 3 car garage right ? )

+1

My $0.02: It seems to me from all of your posts that you've really agonized over this for quite some time.

Just sell yours, buy whatever other "nice" car you want (or save the $), and buy a salvaged or beater NSX to take to the track.

A 2500lb stripped NSX for ~$18k would be a blast on the track. Stock brakes (with cooling) and OEM 15/16" wheels are more than adequate. You can put in the safety features you desire and go have fun.

While I also agree on a SM, I think the beater NSX is a better way to go if you're not competing in a specific class because it is a more rewarding car to master at the limits (and it's quicker).

Good luck, just do something!!! :wink:

 

[nsxnut]

What are you running for safety gear?

I have a Comptech Rollbar and Harness with a sub.

 

[nsxnut]

+1

My $0.02: It seems to me from all of your posts that you've really agonized over this for quite some time.

Just sell yours, buy whatever other "nice" car you want (or save the $), and buy a salvaged or beater NSX to take to the track.

A 2500lb stripped NSX for ~$18k would be a blast on the track. Stock brakes (with cooling) and OEM 15/16" wheels are more than adequate. You can put in the safety features you desire and go have fun.

While I also agree on a SM, I think the beater NSX is a better way to go if you're not competing in a specific class because it is a more rewarding car to master at the limits (and it's quicker).

Good luck, just do something!!! :wink:

I can't afford to race an NSX. I may be able to afford to race a SM.
There is competition any ware in the grid.

With that said. A prepaid NSX will run circles around an SM.
SM is a momentum car. A FI NSX is not a momentum car.

 

[FXMDBilly]

There aren't too many classes for the NSX to be competitive in without FI and taking a lot of work. If you want to race and have the budget, go for it if you really like the car that much. If you just want to race against many similar cars and always have a packed field, get a SM or a E36 M3, both have classes everywhere you can run in, and will teach you alot, have great competition and opportunities to work on your racecraft.

IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT YOUR GOALS ARE. For me, I love the NSX, I like it with alot of power, I want to track it once and a while -a "clubsport" application if you will. Your needs most likely will be different.

Just my opinion but if you are referencing the NSX as an HPDE track car then your mindset is all wrong. If you want to actually race a car get something other than an NSX unless you are in the "rare" class of enthusiasts such as Billy willing to build something that is not really a "true" NSX any longer

What do you define as a "True" NSX? I beg to differ. Sure the car is gutted, has a wide body, and a cage. But it's as much of an NSX as any out there with the stock suspension geometry, control arms, pickup points, etc... It's not tubbed or tube-framed, but i *might* agree with you after were done building the car for 2010, but still, stock suspension and suspension geometry, chassis, etc... -to me, that's a 'true nsx' and not like a JGTC car.

My personal street car (and even Jim's) is not a 'track-car'. They are both daily driveable, mine will eventually be turboed with full interior, A/C, navigation, subwoofers, and will be a daily driver that i occasionally have fun with on the track. You don't *have to* have stock-ish power to be called a street car.

The safety issue is what triggered that conversation. I understand people have differing opinions but man I would like to at least have a Hans when I am flying down a straight at 140. That is fast enough to kill you. Even if you have done 20 days of pro race school, are careful, don't go 10/10ths, etc. Yeah I know the whole "everything in life is a risk you just do the best you can", but I can't even run a Hans, because I have nothing to attach it to. A harness bar offers a questionable level of safety improvement... a cage is MAJOR work. If I do go and get a proper cage, then I have essentially gone down a different road with my NSX. Then suspension, then this, then that, then next thing I know in 5 years I am where Kip, Billy, and John are at now. Will I look back and say "I should have done XYZ instead?" .

You CAN die driving 40mph. Do you feel comfortable and 'safe' only going 110mph? -and 140mph is 'more dangerous'? While this is somewhat true, you can have a nasty wreck at 110 or even 40mph as I said. In all reality you are statistically more at risk on the street -with the idiots on the road, semi trucks, cross traffic, light posts, trees, etc... (driving like normal as one of the millions of drivers out there, not talking about driving like a jerk) than you are at the track. Traffic goes in the same direction on a track, with usually bigger runoffs and room and again, are statistically safer than just driving on the street. Getting T-boned by another car running a red light, hitting a tree, or being hit by a semi will ruin your day (and possibly kill you) far more (statistically) than accidents at HPDE events.

 

[Coz]

I totally agree...

My car is nowhere near a dedicated track car...it would take more than I'm willing to do at this point.

It also has A/C, Stereo, GPS, DVD player, sub-woofer, a full interior and a radar detector :wink:
I built my car as a street driver first, track use car second.

My personal street car (and even Jim's) is not a 'track-car'. They are both daily driveable, mine will eventually be turboed with full interior, A/C, navigation, subwoofers, and will be a daily driver that i occasionally have fun with on the track. You don't *have to* have stock-ish power to be called a street car.

 

[Ty B]

I am making this thread with sincere hopes that the replies will come from guys that know what they are seriously talking about, ....

How good is an NSX as far as performance these days? The design is 15 years old. The stock engine is anemic in comparison to other modern cars. There exist oiling issues. The stock brakes and suspension are just OK. The chassis on the newer (hence targa) models flexes to a degree. It is difficult to put a proper cage in without really ripping the car apart....

So by the time you get an NSX to be a real machine, you blow a ton of money. ....

So how good is the NSX really? has its time come and gone for it being competitive on the track?....

I am starting this thread, sincerely hoping that guys like John, Kip, Shad, Billy can chime in. Just a real honest discussion with all your valuable opinions.

Howdy Turbo,
Hope you don't mind the added discussion, but I'm kinda stuck in a parallel line of thinking here. It's just that I'm asking slightly different questions. If you are bugged that I'm posting in your thread say the word and it will vanish.

Here is the base of my thinking. I used to realy enjoy riding my dirt bike off road and was realy realy into how you just became one with the road. Transitions of weight, balance and technique, you just felt the road and traction available. The experience was the reward; for me riding good lines and executing smooth technique were my focus.

Whenever I'm out on a drive I still dig that kind of harmony and sensation. Obviously not at 10/10ths, but there is still that sense of balance and execution that I'm looking for. The miata by the way does a realy great job of road feeling and feed back for that sensation of being one with the car and not just driving the car. This is also what I dig about the NSX, I'm not so concerned if I'm faster than everyone else or have quicker lap times. The NSX is just such a great driving experience where so many other cars are wooden and non responsive. Executing well in the NSX or miata is rewarding because you have so much feed back that you become one with them.

What do you realy want from your track experience? Do you want to be the fastest beast on the track? Have the newest it car? Have the most computers on board to sort out all the nuances of driving skill for you? What does the NSX do for you? I guess what I am asking is what do you get from driving the NSX rather than some other car?

What I get from the NSX that I haven't found with other cars is a purest driving experience where I'm not driving a car so much as driving the road. I feel everything about the road through the car and what I am thinking about the car just does. What I end up thinking about is the perfect line and execution, not how I am going to drive around the cars limitations.

Reading the book on the McClaren F1, I was struck by Gordon Murray's revelation that he was driving the NSX to judge where he was at for driver sensation and road feedback while developing the F1. Even going so far as approaching Honda to supply a motor for his project. Would you be asking the same questions about the NSX if it had a 10 or 12 cylinder in it and only made 350 hp?

 

[Track Addict]

i own an NSX and love tracking it. for a whole mess of reasons.

right now i'm just HPDEing it so i'm not too worried when joe schmo passes me by in his TT Evo/viper/vette/ whatever

i drive the NSX because i enjoy the car, yes there are many cars that are faster for the same money (sometimes cheaper) but it all comes down to if it is worth it for you. it is for me i will continue to HPDE my NA1 until i bite the bullet and purchase a spec mx5 lol.

owning a car like this and driving on track is a special thing that a lot of people never experience, because they're too scared of what could happen to the car. I reality, i fear the drive TO and FROM the track more than i do actually on it, i'm just more likely to get into an accident on the street with my car than on a track (just basic number of cars on the roads vs. track) at least if i ever DID stack my car at the track it went down on my terms and not by some a-hole that decided to drive home drunk that night.


just my $0.02

 

[DrivingAmbition]

"So by the time you get an NSX to be a real machine, you blow a ton of money. I wonder how Kip feels about an NSX chassis. For this same money, what can you buy? A GT3 seems like quite an advanced automobile these days.

So how good is the NSX really? has its time come and gone for it being competitive on the track? It certainly is cool and rare but is it just too old a design? will the new NSX come out and just spank a highly moddded current NSX that cost more money to modify?"


Hi Turbo,
I am not sure you will find the answer to your questions. But I fell (and I think Kip does too) that you can not beat the NSX as far as performance vs value. Look at this qualifying sheet and show me a cheaper car to race (other than Paul Brown's Older Mustang) with close to the same performance? We can build two + NSX World challenge cars for less money than almost any other car in this field. Cheers, Shad

 

[Coz]

Nice going Shad and Kip !

Look at this qualifying sheet and show me a cheaper car to race (other than Paul Brown's Older Mustang) with close to the same performance?

 

[asylum]

Considering you go first through wheels, track tires, suspensions, sway bars and weigt saving (as you would do on any car) the NSX has not a lot of bad aspect at the track.

Cons :
- misses 100 hp... in straight lines... to be in par with GT3s and others.
- not easy at the limit (but if you want to go gast without knowing hoy to drive, take a Sub or an Evo).
- expensive to mod.

Pros :
- not expensive to use at the track (tires and brakes friendly thanks to its weight).
- fast in curves.
- fun, light,...

 

[Track Addict]

Look at this qualifying sheet and show me a cheaper car to race (other than Paul Brown's Older Mustang) with close to the same performance? ... Cheers, Shad

thanks that was an enlightening read!

I recently repaired your guys tilton clutch, i hope that it is working out well for you. if you need any more help let me know, i run the repair department there.

GOOOO NSX!

 

[NSXLuvr]

Personally - I feel that a NSX has many MANY shortcomings when it comes to track use. Oil starvation issues, lack of power, cage issues, braking issues, limited aftermarket support issues. On top of that you really don't have a series where you can run it- NASA or SCCA.

Personally, I would highly recommend getting a 996 GT3 if you really want a dedicated track car and can't stand the thought of driving a SM(see my sig). It can be bought for $70K and do all the things you are looking for in a track car.

my 2 cents.

Btw, Are you subconsciously trying to justify a reason to keep you NSX? It sure seems like it. Just move on to whatever car you want. If you really miss your NSX then get another one.

 

[BioBanker]

I think that Dave is finding himself in the same situation that I did a couple years ago. At some point, if you go to enough events, you will find yourself lapping fast enough (and maybe often enough) to start thinking more and more about safety equipment.

When that happened to me, I picked up seats, 6pts, HANS and ultimately John@microsofts old cage.

IMO, if you want to install proper safety equipment (and Johns old cage is probably not "proper safety equipment"), you have to be really committed to using the car for that purpose for many years.

I told Dave that I never installed Johns old cage (it remains in my garage in the box John shipped it in) because when I reflected upon where I was headed with the car, and with tracking events, I thought that I was probably nearing the end of my tracking phase. I had gotten to the point where I had no more goals left; I was lapping as fast as I wanted too on the single track (Mosport, not Tremblant as Dave said) I could get to, and I was getting bored. Without goals and variety, I was over-tracking! Lapping Stu in his 500hp 944T Cup car multiple times every session is fun for only so long. If you cant commit to advancing every year, I think this will probably happen to everyone. And I dont think that very many want to hang out at racetracks all the time, so for most it's a matter of when, not if, this will happen.

I think that Dave is asking this question because he is deciding to commit to the NSX or not. I decided not to commit to mine (as a track car) at the same point.

I think Daves decision would be easier if he had an early car.

FWIW, I loved tracking my NSX. Its fast enough with the SC to give anything that I came across a run for its money (and even surprised more than a few drivers), reliable, the chassis is phenomenal and just hunkers down whenever you ask it to, the driving position cant be beat and its crazy fun to drive.

HTH

After spending a bit of time in Seans 996 GT3, I would get one of those instead if you want a better track car. Prob about an even swap cash wise too - but you'll be just another weenie in a pcar!

 

[docjohn]

Dave I think the Canadians hit the nail....I also think you are still ascending the hpde excitement curve,whereas guys like myself and bio are on the downslope....I was able to happily ascend and descend in the same car,and like Bio I was satisfied.....now track time is dictated by family...but I will do events that include other nsx owners,mostly to give joy rides.You are too focused on the miriad of choices out there and need to commit to a path or plan with your car and your own skillset.In truth I can bet that the really fast guys who are wheel to wheeling thier nsx are doing so partly because they feel dedicated to the car and have an emotional atachment to it.Shad also has a love for the nsx and a familiarity that whether he and Kip realize it or not draws them to it.....What car you bring to an hpde has alot to do with your finances...but it has as much to do with your personality,pride,and habits.

 

[djb_rh]

I started out racing wheel to wheel in SM. I've had some good finishes, and in 2005 me and my team won the 13 hour endurance race at VIR in SM. Then I got the bug and wanted to win overall.

Since then, the field has had some pretty fast cars enter, but the overall winner is usually something like an E36 BMW that's not terribly big on HP or even terrifically fast. But they are built and driven well and don't spend time off track. We tried upgrading an old Grand Am ST RSX first. We got the car to lap six second per lap faster than the winning BMW last year, but we were never able to make it reliable enough (and we had it up to 2.5 hours per stint on fuel!).

Along the way, I bought a Cayman S as a street car (and my prior rides have included a Lotus Elise, 996TT, M Roadster, E46 M3 convertible, 2005 STi, and others). I got one of the first Cayman's in the US (same with the Elise) and found it less than stellar, ultimately. Had it listed for sale for near six months when I decided to keep it and have Farnbacher-Loles do their "GTR" conversion on it. 3.8L X51 engine, GT3 suspension upgrades, Motons, 997 front bodywork, time trial legal roll bar, RS seats, etc. If it weren't for hitting a deer near the end, that car would have won the small bore class of the One Lap of America in 2008 and come in third overall (behind a factory Dodge Viper effort and a 600HP 996TT that won for the fifth straight year). That car is now amazing. But even it needs things like additional gearbox oiling!

So after all that, and considering all my options for my next 13 hour car, I decided to build an NSX. My line of thinking went like this...I set out my "requirements" list and looked for what car best fit it. The list went like this:

• must be under 53" tall to fit in the upper compartment of my liftgate trailer (seems easy, but an E46 M3 in race prep doesn't fit that!)
• rear wheel drive
• coupe (ie. no convertibles even with added tops)
• prefer double wishbone suspension
• needs to be able to hold a "big" fuel cell (ideally 25 gallons)
• able to be built to VERY reliably run 2:05's in qualifying trim on VIR full
• must have reasonable aftermarket support
• must be able to fit a 6'4" driver

Now, the 25 gallon fuel cell thing could be a problem, but we know we can do 18 and likely something between that and 25 gallons. Motons exist for the car, which is good because we have Moton training and our own shock dyno. There's "enough" aftermarket support otherwise, we've found. Our huge supply of RSX wheels are perfect for the front on the NSX. The Stoptech brakes we were already using on our RSX will transplant to the NSX easily with a few more parts that we already know we can get a la carte. I found a 1991 donor car for $15k. It runs and drives great, but it is a salvage title. We've got it nearly completely stripped and there is no sign of any frame tweak or damage at all, so it's perfect.

A stock NSX won't fit a 6'4" dude reasonably in a helmet. But we checked around (and Billy was a BIG help!!!) and found a stripped one with custom seat sliders (yes, we need sliders because we will also have a driver on this team that's, err, much less than 6'4") will fit someone that tall just fine.

Our RSX ran 2:09's on 235's with 230HP at 2600 pounds. We feel comfortable that we can get the NSX to 2600 pounds and near 300 reliable horsepower. It'll have 235/275's. Given the obvious advantages the NSX gets "for free" over the RSX (lower Cg, lower Cd, MUCH better suspension, better off the shelf aero, better balance, etc), we feel like hitting that 2:05 mark is possible. Yes, putting a cage in it isn't easy, but a custom cage is a custom cage. Being harder is a few hundred bucks extra in labor. Not a big deal.

We're going to start out with a few bolt ons and the stock engine and cage and go from there. It'll probably be just shocks, springs, brakes, NA2 ABS upgrade, and race tires to start. Well, that and EVERYTHING non-essential will be stripped (pretty much already is). We'll do the easy weight savings, too (bumper, battery, rear glass, etc). From there we'll start working on aero, fuel cell, and engine and transmission (not necessarily in that order). We definitely feel like the JDM 5sp will handle what we want quite well. There's an awesome LSD for it. And 300HP or so in NA form should be easy to get in VERY reliable form.

Cost for our fully prepped 2:05 machine? Should be well under the sticker of my Cayman S was originally. Perhaps under $50k with a lot of the work done ourselves. I don't care what anyone says, I don't believe you can build a Corvette NEARLY as reliable as the NSX for nearly the same money. It might go faster once done, but reliability? I just don't see it. Viper? Nope. Porsche? SURE, but you'll have 3x in it and be VERY afraid to hit anything. *shrug*

That's why I'm doing it. But if it were a $25k proposition for the donor car, well, I might be back on the E36 side of the world, too. But I really hate struts.


--Donnie

 

[shawn110975]

Re: How Good Is the NSX? really. I say Re: How many people Care? really.

Being a TRUE NSX Owner isnt about being the fastest or the best on a Track since not alot of us Track Our cars, no need to.

Everywhere we go, we get looks, and smiles from people that love this car.
you see any BMW go by no-one looks,
see any Porcshe go by no-one looks,
see any Corvette go by no-one looks,
see any Mercedes go by no-one looks,
see any Audi go by no-one looks, (there are a few exceptions)
see a Viper go by people will look,
see a Ferrari go by people will look,
see an NSX go by people will look,

see a Ford Focus with 22inch rims and a Spoiler thats sticks up so High as to make you think its has a second floor for passengers like those buses in london people will look,lol

Point is we own the NSX because we love the car for its looks, style, reliability, If I had Money to burn to the money god, I still wouldnt get any other car but this one, 1.7 million for a Veyron, I would Buy an Island and be happy with my pet monkey that came with the purchase of Island

 

[NSXDreamer2]

Re: How Good Is the NSX? really. I say Re: How many people Care? really.

Being a TRUE NSX Owner isnt about being the fastest or the best on a Track since not alot of us Track Our cars, no need to.

WHY NOT??
you aware this is the track talk thread right? :biggrin:

 

[Kip Olson]

Interesting thread and even more interesting opinions and viewpoints. I'm not sure if I can give an unbiased opinion but here it goes.
Track car era:
I have been fortunate enough to have had my car at every version I wanted (Street, Track, Race) and have taken it as far as I wanted to in every form. There were other cars available but I stayed true to my passion for the NSX.
As far as tubo's original question goes, I have just the opposite question. I don't understand why more people dont' use the NSX for their track/race cars. My reasoning for this is that at whatever performance level you are interested in, the NSX can compete. I do understand that it takes additional dollars to do this but the cars that have been compared to the NSX have some pretty hefty price tags attached to them and are great cars but with the current value of the NSX and the aftermarket support, you can have a car that meets and/or exceeds that of the said competition. When my car was in its track form and supercharged I had a great time running with the p-cars, F-cars, Vipers, L-cars. Even the cup cars and challenge cars. It kept up easily and in most cases beat them and did it reliably. Yes, there was a cost involved but in almost all cases it was less than the competition. Maintinence has also been alot less than the others.

Race car era:
Shad and I entered our first season with a new race version and after a full season and two classes of racing I can tell all of you that compared to other cars we race against that the NSX is a reliable cost effective race car. As Billy has previously stated (AND I AGREE) , FXMD and us have built cars for different purposes but have had great sucesses. We use the stock suspension arms, pickup points, hub assy's, etc. We competed against cars with FAR more $$$ of investment and won! Some of the top Time Attack cars Billy has humiliated (Dam him for being so FAST!) have several times the money invested and drivers that are amazingly talented. I can't think of to many cars you can do with and do it reliably. In our class I raced against many cup cars and other than the World Challenge bunch (that was so much fun) we prevailed. So I guess what I am saying is that in stock form the NSX is undersprung, under braked, and underpowered. With the current cost of an NSX and the available support like Shad @ drivingambition.us and others, you can have a competetive car @ any level (please don't use miatas as a comparison) for the same or less money. You get exclusivity if that's important to you and you can have the Honda reliability to boot. Why would you want anything else??? Guys, understand that these are just my personal experiences and opinions. The NSX is an AMAZING car even today. I have no intention of converting to anything else. For the $$$, nothing else comes close for me! Thanks, Kip

 

[Coz]

Nicely said Kip.