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Thats kind of hard to believe to do this everything you need a new clutch. But what do I know about the type r. That still looks awesome
High RPM NA1 Engine?
- Thread starter nismor32gtr
- Start date
I went to the spoon type one shop and spoon sports in Yokohama and they both said the same thing. It was produced with ITB but the few honda shops that had them didn't always keep it that way. The nsx-r gt car used in the motorsports international video was an original ITB car.
Which video is that? I'd love to see more information on these 5 mythical $500,000 cars since there really is no proof that they even exist. However there are quite a few clones / replicas of converted NSX-R's or NSX's with the R GT bodywork running around, some of which have ITBs.
Here's a link to FXMD owner Ken's review on the weekend and my own:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...ime-Experience-NSX-R-GT-v-Factor-X-Racing-NSX
According to both Ken and I 6 years ago (can't believe its been that long), Tatsuru Ichishima said this was one of the 5 real, (still 'mythical') $500,000 NSX-R GTs. And apparently my recollection of a couple being turbocharged and a couple stroked was accurate. Please read the above thread.
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That's cool. Thanks for posting that info Honcho.
I wonder if the NSX-R cranks are over- or under-balanced? Some engines prefer a particular balance.
For what it is worth, my engine build balance went like this:
1) Pistons less than 0.5gm difference. Wiseco piston weights were modified by shaving material off around the pins.
2) OEM titanium rods were balanced within 0.5gm by shaving material where necessary (big or little ends)... be careful to grind according to the titanium grain structure
3) Piston pins balanced within 0.5gm, then sent out for DLC coating (full-floating) and re-weighed (negligible) to confirm.
4) Counter weights calculated for pistons, rods, pins, clips, and rings...including allowance for oil. Dynamic balance at 1000 RPM.
5) Next, my RPS carbon clutch and a new OEM crank dampener installed and balance checked again. RPS carbon flywheel drilled in one place.
6) Decided at last minute not to run new OEM crank dampener. I assume the ATI is well-balanced.
It's a lot of time and (therefore) money to do correctly. Unheard of for production engines... at least until the NSX-R!
I wonder if the NSX-R cranks are over- or under-balanced? Some engines prefer a particular balance.
For what it is worth, my engine build balance went like this:
1) Pistons less than 0.5gm difference. Wiseco piston weights were modified by shaving material off around the pins.
2) OEM titanium rods were balanced within 0.5gm by shaving material where necessary (big or little ends)... be careful to grind according to the titanium grain structure
3) Piston pins balanced within 0.5gm, then sent out for DLC coating (full-floating) and re-weighed (negligible) to confirm.
4) Counter weights calculated for pistons, rods, pins, clips, and rings...including allowance for oil. Dynamic balance at 1000 RPM.
5) Next, my RPS carbon clutch and a new OEM crank dampener installed and balance checked again. RPS carbon flywheel drilled in one place.
6) Decided at last minute not to run new OEM crank dampener. I assume the ATI is well-balanced.
It's a lot of time and (therefore) money to do correctly. Unheard of for production engines... at least until the NSX-R!
It's a fun read, but those side scoops are not original. I don't think the spoon owner would lie about the body body but those side scoops are wider then the GT ones were. Looking from front to back the scoops should slant in at the bottoms to be flush not stock out on top and bottom. Well back to our original conversation if the oldest lead mechanic at spoons type one Shop tells me they were built with ITB from Honda then I would choose to believe that over anything else. He also said the honda president has one kept locked away. With the right connections someone like the spoon owner could have had Honda make the body parts for a nsx-r and get the body. Plaque made also. I've seen Nismo do that for high end shops that rebuild one for a Customer that wanted a Nismo GTR. Now it's not one of the original 500 Nismo r32gtrs but it is a plated and titled Nismo car. Just not assembled at Nissan
nismor32gtr - due to comments like this, it does not seem like you have a deep understanding how engines work:
-"For N/A building there are only 2 ways to get more power. Displacement such as building a 3.5L or balancing and engine and raising compression to achieve the same result."
(Improving the VE of the engine by improving the intake manifold design, header design, cams, larger valves, ported heads, adjustable cam gears, higher octane and more advanced timing, improving higher RPM flow and revving the engine higher, etc... there are a lot more than 'only 2' ways that to increase power NA)
You have also had many false, unsubstantiated claims:
-"I do know that the 02+ NSX-R was able to redline at 10,000rpms and did make power up to that point."
(not true)
-"The Spoon NSX-R copy that Spoon built was twin turbo and weighed 2200lb which is insane"
(The Spoon car is a single Turbo GT30 and was not that light.)
-"The race cars did have twin turbo set ups for GT300."
(GT300 NSXs are not turbocharged)
Thus far you have not proven to be a reliable source.
In regards to the side scoops, you can jump on the Major Stoner conspiracy bandwagon by saying they are not the same shape but in reality, I don't know of any pictures of a "real" NSX-R GT other than the official press images. Major Stoner does not even believe the car even exists. And the RGT press photos does show the scoops sticking out wider than the bodywork on top and bottom, with the major questionable difference being the trailing edge curvature of the top of the scoop.
On another note, there are some knowns:
-DOME is a well regarded Japanese constructor who was contracted by Honda to develop the chassis and aero for their JGTC effort.
-In 2001, DOME Carbon Magic was formed specifically for carbon composite development and manufacture.
-The Spoon NSX-R GT has a "DOME Carbon Magic" logo on the front bumper.
-The President/CEO of Spoon told Ken and I it was a real NSX-R GT, a Spoon shop car. (I am not going to question his credibility)
-Ichishima-san did say that the RGT made the car too low for loading the car in a container and too long to fit in the container, which is why it shipped to the states with 02 bodywork.
-Route KS is a well respected Japanese NSX specialty shop and Tuner who makes body kits for the NSX.
-Spoon is a well respected Japanese race team and engine builder who specializes in "Type-R" platforms.
-The Spoon NSX-R GT was at Route KS at one point in time.
-The president of Japanese-tuner Spoon bought the car. Various people from the industry who travel to the states from Japan have verified that the Spoon owner was one of the first to raise his hand to buy the NSX-R GT from Honda. As a respected Japanese Tuner, they put their own suspension and turbo kit on the car to further promote their abilities and performance of the company.
From the above, it's very conceivable that Ichishima-san did buy an NSX-R GT and took it to Route-KS to replicate the original bodywork which appears to be made by DOME. I also wouldn't blame him to put replica body panels on as he paraded the car around the world to promote his re manufactured/rebuilt NSX-R package cars since I wouldn't want to damage original $500,000 bodywork.
All I know is that Ichishima-san, the President/CEO of Spoon said it was real ($460,000, one of 5 NSX-R GTs of which 2 were 3.5L stroked NA cars, 2 were turboed, and I don't recall the last), it was turbo'd, the interior looked just like an NSX-R (even with the lightweight interior engine bay glass and half-mast antenna button, it had the NSX-R GT bodywork (the rear bumper is the exact same as the official pics despite the photos taken not clearly showing it), and had 1-pc rotors and Spoon suspension and front calipers.
I don't mind your or Major Stoner's skepticism and due to the significant lack of information, published unreliable contradictory information, and a lack of photos of a real, known car, the NSX-R GT will likely remain a mythical unicorn car.
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You definitely don't have to do that for a clutch change. You can change the NSX-R clutch only, just like any other NSX. But, you will lose the balancing. If you are a NSX-R owner, Honda Japan will ship you the entire balanced assembly like this to preserve the factory-level performance. Again, it's mega $$$$. These photos are from KSP Engineering, who purchased them for new engine builds. NSX-R in a box, so to speak.
The spoon nsx-r gt is not twin turbo, your right it was the esprit nsx I was thinking of and also typo on GT300 ment GT500. Also the spoon nsxr gt was 2160lb which is 980kg as confirmed by speed hunters from Ichishima. Yes the car was ITB when he first got it. And as for the 10,000rpm comment it's only a matter of time before I find that Japanese article about it or find a picture of the gauge cluster again now I'll except that it might not be a oem nsxr but a spoon Advance Mugen or Revolution tuned nsxr with a 10,000rpm cluster. And I'll even the spoon and esprit engines mixed up. But by no means am I wrong about the weight of the spoon nsx or that GT500 nsx were TT
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Besides your obvious infatuation with Ichishima posting links about other posts where you talk about your meeting with Ichishima I haven't seen any pictures of said meeting or you with the car. I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll go to spoon later this year and have a chat with them and take pictures so you know it really happened.
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Besides your obvious infatuation with Ichishima posting links about other posts where you talk about your meeting with Ichishima I haven't seen any pictures of said meeting or you with the car. I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll go to spoon later this year and have a chat with them and take pictures so you know it really happened.
I think the problem many of us are having is you started out by saying the oem NSX-R engine revs to 10K rpm and the car has an oem tach that shows a 10 K rpm redline.
We know that isn't true.
Since then you've made a number of other statements that have been refuted or questionable so no one really knows what to believe.
Perhaps before you make any future statements you could back up them up with facts rather some comment from a website you can't find etc. etc.
I never said the oem nsxr off the lot would do 10,000rpms. The Japanese article I read talked about how the engines could be taken to that rpm. I didn't save the page and when I went back to read how they did it I could not find the page again. I came across the page while googling something else. It could have been through springs and cams or other small stuff but I do know it said the engine bore was unmolested i.e not bored up to keep the shorter stroke. Finding any information about tuning for a nsxr in japan is hard enough. Last time I was in Tokyo I was busy showing a friend around and didn't have time to go back to actually sit and talk. The Spoon type one shop was closed the 2 days we stopped there and I didn't have time to go back a third on my last trip. I'm hoping to make a trip down in last sept early oct so we shall see.
There's no doubt in my mind that with enough money and engineering the engine could be built to spin over 10K rpm with reasonable torque. However, the powerband would be so narrow (on an NA engine) you'd need an eight speed plus sequential box just to keep it on the pipe. To make it go you'd need to drive it like you're racing a 125cc two stroke! Driving around town wouldn't be much fun.
You seem to be back-pedaling a bit, but i'll give you that. However, according to Wikepedia, the GT500 cars were primarily NA cars:
"Prior to rule changes beginning in the 2003 season, the Super GT/GT500 NSX was powered by a specially modified version of the C32B V6 engine. Using a stroker crankshaft from Toda Racing, the naturally aspirated engine displaced 3.5 liters and produced nearly 500 bhp. Beginning in 2003, Honda substituted a highly modified C30A, augmented by a turbocharger, which also produces up to 500 bhp."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_NSX
And every image of a GT500 car and motor shows it being NA:
http://www.wallpaperup.com/uploads/wallpapers/2013/07/14/118306/c1335a0666e4899f55c2d981aeb2852a.jpg
http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp122/1ac4u2nv/cutaway_2001a.jpg
http://www.toda-racing.co.jp/en/product/engine/gt-large2.jpg
http://nsxbuilder.com/media/2007_ARTA_NSX_GT500/img04L.jpg
I urge you to look into it and provide any sources or images of a twin turbo GT500.
Media is so often incorrect, which I stated in my previous post. Including the FXMD NSX being called a 'twin turbo' in many print and video media including a few articles in Japan, when in fact the car has always been a single turbo. I don't always put a ton of value in media. Ichishima said there were 2 turbo NSX-R GT cars and i'll take his word over magazines anytime.
In regards to the 2,160lb weight -are you sure that's not for the Esprit NSX? That is extremely light and unrealistic for a full interior car:
NSX-R weighs - 2,800lbs
F bumper (the Spoon car didn't have one) - 18lbs
R bumper (the Spoon car had a stock aluminum rear bumper) - 18.5lbs
Battery (40lb stock) - 35lbs
Lexan Hatch (13lbs vs. 25.2) - 12.2lbs
Carbon bumpers (probably insignificant over stock plastic, but lets go with the often quoted but overly optimistic): - 88lbs
Spoon Calipers: 5.7lbs vs. 12.4 OEM = 6.7lbs = 13.4lbs
Spoon Coilovers: 44.8lbs vs. NSX-R OEM suspension: 62lbs = 17.2lbs
=202.3lbs rounded to: 205lbs
=2,595lb NSX-R GT which is VERY optimistic given cushion of the above numbers, including a questionable and unverified 88lb weight savings from the bumpers.
Now add:
-Hatch-mounted "Snorkel"
-Turbo
-Air to Air Intercooler & ducting
-Muffler and piping (but remove the weight of the NSX-R exhaust)
-Turbo oil scavange pump
So lets take the optimistic 2,595lb NSX-R GT and pretend the turbo didn't add any weight. I have a really hard time trying to see where there was an additional 435lb weight savings over a base NSX-R when the Spoon car had a full interior including a radio and nothing visibly different under the hood, engine hatch, and under the car.
The Spoon NSX-R GT was a great handling car and was very light, however it did not feel like the same weight as a Lotus Exige.
You are again back pedaling since you clearly said:
"I do know that the 02+ NSX-R was able to redline at 10,000rpms and did make power up to that point."
I'm sure you saw A car with a 10K rpm tach since people modify their cars to whatever they want. Heck, I'm sure there's a car out there with a 12K rpm tach. The problem is you continue to to make unsupported claims and do not provide any sources and are changing your story.
Read above and provide sources.
It's not an infatuation, but rather taking his word over yours and using his statements as a credible source. Since you don't seem too interested in doing your HW to provide sources or a quick google search, here's the link to the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDkS60XJmMM
You did say and imply that a stock motor not only revs to 10K but makes power to 10K. Of course you can build an NSX motor (or any motor with enough work) to rev to 10K but I don't think you'll find proof of a stock or even lightly modified NSX motor making power to 10K. It would be a lot easier if you just admit you made a mistake rather than try to change your story again.
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Nismor I have an idea for you to mentsu wo tamotsu.
Nismor32gtr is an appropriate name when you post on the Nissan/GTR forums but on an NSX site like Prime, not so much.
Change your Prime nickname and come back with your homework done backed up with fact.
Nismor32gtr is an appropriate name when you post on the Nissan/GTR forums but on an NSX site like Prime, not so much.
Change your Prime nickname and come back with your homework done backed up with fact.
Ok, i'm going to go jump off a bridge now...
Ok so how is your information more credible? You said (All I know is that Ichishima-san, the President/CEO of Spoon said it was real ($460,000, one of 5 NSX-R GTs of which 2 were 3.5L stroked NA cars, 2 were turboed, and I don't recall the last), it was turbo'd, the interior looked just like an NSX-R (even with the lightweight interior engine bay glass and half-mast antenna button, it had the NSX-R GT bodywork (the rear bumper is the exact same as the official pics despite the photos taken not clearly showing it), and had 1-pc rotors and Spoon suspension and front calipers.)
now I hate to call the kettle black but you say that Ichishima said 2 of the 5 were turbo 2 were 3.5L NA and one something else would make his car a normal nsx-r with only the nsx-r gt body upgrades. Since he clearly says it was 300hp stock which is stock for a nsx-r not the gt car. Also that video clearly shows it's a 3.2L not a 3.5L. Looks to me like all your quoting is from videos and interviews of which you can't even quote accurately the information on the screen. of a guy that does not seem to know everything about the car. You should take your own advice and research your own posts to see how your information in contradictory. My was as follows. ( I do know that the +02 nsxr was able to do 10,000rpms and make power to that point but would have to go talk to mugen and spoon to ask how it's done. I read in several posts I came across on google japan saying the nsxr was capable of it. Hence why I said I would have to ask how it's done. Also other then posting links to a YouTube video (your not in) of Ichishima saying the car was 300hp stock making it a nsxr not nsxr-gt which were not a stock nsxr engine. You have shown no proof of anything your saying to be true. And just because you don't see a picture of something does not make it less real.
now I hate to call the kettle black but you say that Ichishima said 2 of the 5 were turbo 2 were 3.5L NA and one something else would make his car a normal nsx-r with only the nsx-r gt body upgrades. Since he clearly says it was 300hp stock which is stock for a nsx-r not the gt car. Also that video clearly shows it's a 3.2L not a 3.5L. Looks to me like all your quoting is from videos and interviews of which you can't even quote accurately the information on the screen. of a guy that does not seem to know everything about the car. You should take your own advice and research your own posts to see how your information in contradictory. My was as follows. ( I do know that the +02 nsxr was able to do 10,000rpms and make power to that point but would have to go talk to mugen and spoon to ask how it's done. I read in several posts I came across on google japan saying the nsxr was capable of it. Hence why I said I would have to ask how it's done. Also other then posting links to a YouTube video (your not in) of Ichishima saying the car was 300hp stock making it a nsxr not nsxr-gt which were not a stock nsxr engine. You have shown no proof of anything your saying to be true. And just because you don't see a picture of something does not make it less real.
Nismor this is such a poorly written response I cannot understand what you are saying.
The first paragraph is completely confusing.
In the last paragraph what does "My was as follows" mean?
As far as the 10 k rpm power-making OEM 02+ NSX-R engine you need to find some back-up for this statement or stop making it.
What did Spoon and Mugen have to do with the OEM NSX-R engine?
Yeah I had to read his response 3x to understand it. NismoR32GT You have failed to provide anything to back up your claims. I think Billy has done more than enough to back up what he has said, and since he has met with the individuals in question has more insight than you appear to have. All he is saying is if he is wrong prove it. Until you do your just typing words into a thread with nothing to back it up.
NismoR32GT I think you talking about this has helped raise some good info especially from Billy that i hadnt read before but mate put your shovel back in the garden shed and stop digging a hole for yourself
I'm sorry if my messages are difficult to read when I'm using my iPhone. What I mean is that everything that (Billy) has come up with other then telling me to prove the 10,000rpm nsx-r statement is all conjecture or just complete BS. He has not talked face to face with Ichishima and tell me and other not to believe media about the spoon car then posts a link to guess what a media interview with the guy who says his car was a 300hp stock which would make it a nsx-r not a nsx-r gt which where not stock C32B NSX-R engines. He says 2 were turbo 2 were 3.5L NA and one something else. While the spoon car was only a stock 300hp 3.2L which is a NSX-R. I haven't found a interview with him were he states that his car is in fact 100% one of the 5 nsx-r gt cars. In the video the American makes that statement. Here's a nice write up about the car. In which it explains what I've suspected. The spoon nsx-r gt not a legit one of five ever built it was a car they cloned to look like a nsx-r gt for their 20th anniversary. http://570sx.blogspot.jp/2011/04/spoon-nsx-r-gt.html?m=1
http://ansaikuropedia.org/wiki/ホンダ・NSX
http://m.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/q11109982436
http://m.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/q1382970253;_ylt=A2RAEF1atNBTb0YATwt5Pvh7
http://minkara.carview.co.jp/smart/car/honda/nsx/spec/unit108314/
There's some light reading for you. I have a feeling you won't agree with any of it even the sites showing the cars real specs but I know what I believe.
http://ansaikuropedia.org/wiki/ホンダ・NSX
http://m.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/q11109982436
http://m.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/q1382970253;_ylt=A2RAEF1atNBTb0YATwt5Pvh7
http://minkara.carview.co.jp/smart/car/honda/nsx/spec/unit108314/
There's some light reading for you. I have a feeling you won't agree with any of it even the sites showing the cars real specs but I know what I believe.
So according to the Japanese the nsx-r gt was as far as anyone knows a nsx-r with body and suspension mods with other small stuff. No one really knows to what extent if any was done engine wise. From all the different sources I've read and seen, only the Honda pres himself bought one. There's no proof anywhere that says Spoon bought one of the original 5. And no information about where the genuine 5 are located. Speculation is that Honda made them all in house and then turned them into track cars. Some of the information in one of those links I posted talks about that.
Nismor32gtr you started the thread about a high rpm N/A engine.
Then came your statement that the oem NSX-R engine revved and made power to 10K rpm.
Why don't we forget about who bought an NSX-R GT because it's not relevant to the thread anyway.
Still waiting for you to provide the facts to back up your 10 K rpm statement.
Have you got anything?
I was able to find the gauges but it looks like they might be a Advance or Route KS custom gauge. I could very well have been wrong as Japanese does not always translate over to mean what we think it means. I asked my other Japanese buddy that owns Refil speed in Morioka and he also owns a nsx and says that the NSX-R is capable of making good power to at least 9500rpms with some Toda springs cams and spoon valve guides. But past that they don't make much power. He said with said mods and better oil pump I.e dry sump 10k is possible but pointless without ITB because even though the nsx-r has a slightly better intake manifold the single TB design is a bottleneck. He said even with a bigger TB it just can't get the air in fast enough like ITB's can. He also thinks the gauges I found are from a top sports shop from down south and are for their high rpm builds. Advance builds whatever the customer wants and have their own in house developed ITB kit. I met a older Japanese guy at Tatsumi PArking area that have one of their 400hp 3.5L engines
Okay so no facts on an oem Type-R engine revving and making power to 10 K rpm and no oem tach in Type-R models with a 10 k rpm redline.
So can we agree the statements you made to that effect were wrong?
Now I'm interested in this latest bit about your comment that the oem NSX-R engine having a different intake manifold?
Is there a Honda part number on this manifold?
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