High RPM NA1 Engine?

[JD Cross]

Back to the Type-R engine nismor32gtr said makes power to 10K rpm.

I've searched the web looking for this engine but can't find any data on it.
I got interested in being able to order Honda oem high performance parts to build a 10 K rpm engine.

Unless we get some facts I'm now thinking what Nismor32gtr said is only rumour and lacks credibility.

 

[docjohn]

what did the old comptech spice race car rev to....it had a built 3.0 motor.?That car still runs we watched it at an old xpo.

 

[L_RAO]

If/when I ever get around to it, I will post up my results on my NA build.

My own research has led me to believe that in order to make usable NA power up to 8800-9500 RPM, the C30 needs:

1. An upgraded oil pump gear, at the bare minimum. The OEM oil pump gear was made of a material that doesn't like life above 8500 RPM.

2. An upgraded valvetrain. The components (valves, valvesprings, retainers) are fine up to 8200, but the stress on the valvetrain increases exponentially as the RPMs climb. In addition, the OEM camshafts are very tame on the VTEC lobe. Like someone else said, if you're going to pursue NA power, you need to run the Toda cams or find a set of the old Comptech cams.

3, ITBs, or a no-compromise plenum intake manifold. The OEM intake manifold was a compromise in drivability and spacing. An all-out plenum/TB'd will have no restrictions (short, wide, direct-angled runners) and let every single cylinder breathe to its potential. I'm still waiting for gsrboy to sell me his ITB setup. :biggrin:

 

[greenberet]

A straight shaft is a pretty efficient way to transfer power between two spinning assemblies. Unless there is a big benefit to them spinning at different speeds or to the change in flow layout, I suspect you would lose too much in the mechanical-electrical-mechanical conversion and transmission.

I don't know. The electric motors in those solar race cars operate at something like 98% efficiency. There would definitely be some losses on the generation and power sides of such a system but I don't know how large they would be or how large the gains would be from less convoluted intake and exhaust piping and turbines that are able to spin at different speeds.

It would have to be good to capture the energy that usually gets blown off through the wastegate but that could be done by upping the recuperation of a shaft-driven turbo as well.

All fairly far afield from a high-RPM naturally aspirated motor, but interesting.

Agreed – back to high rpm n/a engines…

 

[nismor32gtr]

I think we can all agree It would have to be ITB to make it worth while and make breathability

 

[JD Cross]

I think we can all agree It would have to be ITB to make it worth while and make breathability

What about the 10K rpm Type-R engine you've been talking about with 10K rpm redline on the tachometer?
Do you have any facts, or pics?

 

[greenberet]

I think we can all agree It would have to be ITB to make it worth while and make breathability

I don't think we can agree on that. The benefit of ITBs is that they can give you a sharper throttle response (by minimizing the volume of air between the throttle plates and the intake valves), not that they can inherently breathe better than a well designed manifold. The 2014 Ferrari 458 Speciale, which produces 135 PS per liter at 9000 rpm, uses an intake manifold and not ITBs.

If you want to read about what Honda did to make the NSX-R's engine special, have a look at the Honda Japan website: http://world.honda.com/NSX/technology/t5.html.

To see the redline of a stock 2002 NSX-R, have a look at its instrument cluster: http://machinespider.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2011-Honda-NSX-2.jpg.

 

[JD Cross]

If you want to read about what Honda did to make the NSX-R's engine special, have a look at the Honda Japan website: http://world.honda.com/NSX/technology/t5.html.

To see the redline of a stock 2002 NSX-R, have a look at its instrument cluster: http://machinespider.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2011-Honda-NSX-2.jpg.

I'd read the Honda piece on the Type-R some time ago and didn't find any reference to a 10K rpm redline which prompted me to ask nismor32gtr where he got his info from.
Thanks for the tachometer pic. As expected it shows the same redline as the regular NSX's
Nismor32gtr isn't answering the question asked so I'm assuming he posted a rumour from some website rather than fact.

 

[scammy]

Yeah i never heard of a 10,000rpm factory NSX, i did hear a rumour that a lot of the later model engines where built the same as the R model's as they were making so few anyway, they just didnt get all the lightweight bits and aero enhancements and tuned ecu. But no proof as such

 

[docjohn]

two very knowledgeable nsxperts from our NE region felt that the type R's they rode in at fiesta in the motherland were noticeably quicker than the standard.

 

[scammy]

like i said rumor however i wonder if that had more to do with the different tune and gearing from the standard NSX than from a blue printed engine as such. maybe never know the answer to that apart from they are quicker regardless.

 

[Rope]

I will say that more aggressive gearing makes a bit of difference.

 

[Honcho]

NSX-R also has re-mapped ECU and different DBW throttle stepping. 10,000 is possible, but the stock NSX-R has the same redline as the regular NSX. I have a Best Motoring called battles at 10,000 rpm and there is a Esprit NSX that is tuned to that level in the race. Tsuchiya is shifting at 9,000.

 

[nismor32gtr]

I am trying to find a japanese reference for the NSX-R GT because i think thats what version its in. I have only seen the gauge cluster once and even the NSX-R gauges are hard to find. There is only one for sale online now.

 

[stuntman]

Fwiw: The NSX-R GT that I drove didn't rev past 9k rpm..

 

[nismor32gtr]

Oh yeah and when did you drive one of the 5 NSX-R GT cars?

 

[docjohn]

Oh yeah and when did you drive one of the 5 NSX-R GT cars?

it was a spoon version

 

[JD Cross]

I am trying to find a japanese reference for the NSX-R GT because i think thats what version its in. I have only seen the gauge cluster once and even the NSX-R gauges are hard to find. There is only one for sale online now.

Wasn't the NSX-R GT engine turbocharged and putting out 500 hp at the time?
Did the five factory NSX-r GT's have a turbo or n/a engine?

 

[nismor32gtr]

The NSX-R GT did not come twin turbo. They came with changes to the body aero and suspension and more weight reduction as well as ITB and better tuning.
I have been scouring to find a used NSX-R engine but they just dont ever come up. In the words of its maker, the NSX-R engine will be built to meet or exceed that of any race engine or better. The NSX-R engine balancing process took around 4-5 hours to complete all by hand. They would micro polish every part and assemble it ensuring that with each part added the balance was withing 1-2 grams, then after the engine was assembled and pullys and flywheel put on they would externally balance the engine by drilling small holes into the flywheel at 0.5-1 gram at a time until it would completely zero'd. Much like how modern tire machines balance a wheel with the tire on they balanced the engine with the pullys and flywheel on. Truly Honda's pinnacle car.

- - - Updated - - -

The Spoon NSX-R copy that Spoon built was twin turbo and weighed 2200lb which is insane. Im around 2500lb and i cant think of much more to take off of the car.

 

[greenberet]

The NSX-R GT ... came with changes to the body aero and suspension and more weight reduction as well as ITB and better tuning.

I don't think the NSX-R GT had ITBs.

I have been scouring to find a used NSX-R engine but they just dont ever come up.

You could try contacting Detlef from Procar Specials in Germany. He has good contacts to Honda Racing and had several NSX-R engines up for sale over the years.

In the words of its maker, the NSX-R engine will be built to meet or exceed that of any race engine or better.

Don't tell the guys who build Formula 1 engines that they do sloppy work compared to what Honda did with the NSX-R!

 

[JD Cross]

The NSX-R GT did not come twin turbo.....In the words of its maker, the NSX-R engine will be built to meet or exceed that of any race engine or better.
I'm around 2500lb and i cant think of much more to take off of the car.

I believe the race car GT did have twin turbos. Whether the engine in the five homologated versions was turboed or not is still a question.

Here's the actual words of the maker. Not quite the claim you have quoted above.



Perhaps you could send a list of what you've taken off your car to reach 2500 lbs. and when you weighed it?

 

[stuntman]

Oh yeah and when did you drive one of the 5 NSX-R GT cars?

Google: Spoon NSX-R GT Factor X

Wasn't the NSX-R GT engine turbocharged and putting out 500 hp at the time?
Did the five factory NSX-r GT's have a turbo or n/a engine?

The NSX-R GT is a bit of a vague 'halo' or 'unicorn'. I'm not sure if Honda was required to manufacture 5 cars to homologate the bodywork which influenced the dimensions and directions of their Super GT car at the time. Either way there is no solid record of the rumored 5 cars. However, IIRR from the weekend with Ichishima-san, the 5 cars varied from a couple turbo cars, to an ITB stroked car. None of them were the same. The car I drove had a GT30 single turbo and was making around 400whp.

The NSX-R GT did not come twin turbo. They came with changes to the body aero and suspension and more weight reduction as well as ITB and better tuning.

It also had Spoon front brakes and not all of them had ITBs.

In the words of its maker, the NSX-R engine will be built to meet or exceed that of any race engine or better. The NSX-R engine balancing process took around 4-5 hours to complete all by hand. They would micro polish every part and assemble it ensuring that with each part added the balance was withing 1-2 grams, then after the engine was assembled and pullys and flywheel put on they would externally balance the engine by drilling small holes into the flywheel at 0.5-1 gram at a time until it would completely zero'd. Much like how modern tire machines balance a wheel with the tire on they balanced the engine with the pullys and flywheel on. Truly Honda's pinnacle car.

Honda did spend more time on the NSX-R motor but it's nothing revolutionary and most good engine builders already balance rotating assemblies just as good to yield the same benefits. Same with micro polishing. Honda just did this from an OEM standpoint to squeeze more power out of their halo car that was designed during the gentlemen's agreement of 280bhp. No questions the processes make for a slightly more powerful motor, but nothing out of this world and certainly not better than race engine practices.

The Spoon NSX-R copy that Spoon built was twin turbo and weighed 2200lb which is insane. Im around 2500lb and i cant think of much more to take off of the car.

Spoon assembled the car at my friend's shop when it was imported to the US. I don't know if he weighed it but it certainly wasn't 2,200lbs and it was a single GT30 turbo.


0.02

 

[Honcho]

This is what a genuine NSX-R rotating assembly looks like as shipped from Honda. Note the balance marks on the flywheel AND and the harmonic pulley. The entire unit is carefully balanced. Makes you wonder what happens when you have to replace the pulley or clutch? Apparently, Honda will send you a complete new assembly like this one. I am sure that is mega $$$$$.

 

[nismor32gtr]

I have my weight reduction posts in the extreme weight reduction area. Pretty much the only thing left in the car is the dash. And I'm working on a carbon dash to replace the heavy leather one. Door panels are going to be completely gone soon and replaced with carbon Kevlar ones. All the interior paneling is long gone and sound deadening gone. All the outer body panels are frp now and bumper beams all aluminum now. Lots more little stuff but yeah

- - - Updated - - -

The race cars did have twin turbo set ups for GT300. But the 5 street legal cars were N/A with ITB

 

[stuntman]

I have my weight reduction posts in the extreme weight reduction area. Pretty much the only thing left in the car is the dash. And I'm working on a carbon dash to replace the heavy leather one. Door panels are going to be completely gone soon and replaced with carbon Kevlar ones. All the interior paneling is long gone and sound deadening gone. All the outer body panels are frp now and bumper beams all aluminum now. Lots more little stuff but yeah

- - - Updated - - -

The race cars did have twin turbo set ups for GT300. But the 5 street legal cars were N/A with ITB

The GT300 Super GT cars are not turbocharged:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/16686-JGTC-NSX-Engine


I think you are thinking of the Twin Turbo GT1 cars that raced at LeMans in 1995 (both did not finish). In 1994-1996, Naturally Aspirated NSXs ran in the GT2 class and won with Keiichi Tsuchia, Akira Iida, and Kunimitsu Takahashi as drivers in 1995.


A quick google search found this quote on Wiki:

"The NSX-R GT was created by Honda solely to comply with the Super GT production-based race car homologation requirements. As JGTC rules required at least five production cars for any race car version to compete, the NSX-R GT was limited to a production run of only five cars."

-Again, the car is a bit of a 'unicorn' and nothing has ever been published on any of the mythical '5 cars' -if they even exist at all. The body shape was derived for homologation purposes and Honda fudged their way into making more competitive racecars though building this "NSX-R GT".

IIRC, Ichishima-san said the 5 NSX-R GTs varied from Turbo to stoked motors and none of them are the same. However, there's still no proof that any of them really exist, or if this was one of the 5 or not. I can't remember but I thought I was told it was one of the "5". Either way Spoon has a very close relationship with Honda.


Jalopnik says it was one of the 5:

http://jalopnik.com/5083478/spoon-honda-nsx-r-gt-first-drive

Road & Track says it was one of the 5:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/car-comparison-tests/bling-quartet-spoon-nsx-r-gt

Modified says its not one of the 5:

http://www.modified.com/features/sccp_0902_2005_honda_nsx_type_r/


Either way it really does not matter...