Forbes article on Acura with NSX references

Do you agree with this author?

  • Yes - right on the money

    Votes: 20 51.3%
  • Sort of - but over simplified

    Votes: 15 38.5%
  • No - this guy needs rehab

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • I don't know / have an opinion / Can't read

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    39
I agree with some of his points, but not others. Let's take his charges one by one:

1. No eight-cylinder engine.

The question here is, do people really care whether or not there is an eight, if that's not the engine they're buying anyway? My opinion is that this is not a critical factor. Look at all the cars that the competitors are selling, and you'll see that most of their cars do not have an eight. The eight (or more) is only in the high end of the market, and all the entry-level ($30-40K) cars sold, which is the bulk of unit sales, do not have eights.

2. Undistinguished styling.

I agree, absolutely, that the styling is bland, and that sales are lost because of it. But then the question is, how does this compare with the competitors? With few exceptions (Lexus SC430), almost all of the models from Lexus and BMW and Mercedes are (IMO) also afflicted with bland, boxy, cookie-cutter styling. The one exception is Infiniti, which (as mentioned elsewhere) is an also-ran, a non-player in this market. So while Acura is guilty, so is the competition. What does that tell you?

3. No rear-wheel-drive car.

Is this a factor? Yes and no. Many of the cars sold by Lexus are FWD, yet that hasn't held them back. They laud Audi for their AWD cars, but Audi too is an also-ran, with sales less than Acura's.

4. Car names.

They criticize Acura for alphanumeric model designators, but that's exactly what all the competitors are doing. Again, this doesn't explain why the competition is selling more cars than Acura.

So, all in all, I think the things that the author accuses Acura of, are mostly just as true of the competition. Which means that they are not responsible for their greater sales.

I think a better explanation arises from looking at what sells cars - and I think what sells cars is product, marketing, pricing, and service.

In product, I don't think Acura has as wide a variety of vehicles as the others. Lexus has nine models. So does Mercedes. BMW does but only by claiming high-performance M variations as separate models. Acura has only six, and one of them is the slow-selling niche model, the NSX. I don't think Acura is able to spend as much on product development as its competition; as a result, it has fewer eggs in its basket. This is why it took Honda so long to sell its own mid-sized SUV; they sold Isuzu's models while its designers and developers were working on the Odyssey. Acura just does not have the variety that its competition has, and that hurts.

In marketing, I just think Acura has not done a good job. The television and print ads are as bland as the car styling. Why should Honda have better television commercials than Acura? I believe that the bland styling and bland ads are a symptom of conservatism, a feeling that luxury buyers won't accept anything outside of the norm. And I don't believe in that principle.

Pricing is one area where Acura is superior, no question, and without this, the sales decline would surely have been much worse.

Service, though, is another area where, IMO, the competition just does a better job, and the dealers have a reputation for treating the customer well. Certainly, in today's environment driven by customer satisfaction and surveys, all dealers are trying to do better. But my sense is that Acura has not put in place the processes and mechanisms for monitoring customer service and rewarding those dealers that are really good at it. And the fact that some Acura dealers are much, much better than others says something about the degree to which consistency is not being enforced on a division-wide basis.

So, in a nutshell, I think product, marketing, and service are far more responsible for Acura's relatively poor performance over the years than the factors mentioned in the article.
 
The Acura brand does needs a little marketing kick start. If sales keep declining I wonder if Acura will be around 3-4 years from now. Remember what happened to the Prowler... it got changed from the Plymouth Prowler to the Chrysler Prowler. I could see the NSX being sold under the Honda name, like they do in Europe, if Acura gets desolved.
 
As a Honda stockholder I probably should care about numbers of
units sold, but as a driver, I don't. The author makes some valid points, particularly about alphanumeric names. I find it interesting that Honda cars are getting the bolder styling changes, new Accords, Element, CivicSI, etc. (granted some are for the better, some are not). I also agree that horsepower is important in marketing in the segments that Acura is trying to compete in. I think Acura needs a redesigned, V8 powered flagship with a new (or old-ie-Legend) name and a new NSX to compete with the European marques. Maybe Honda is concentrating more on engineering and racing than marketing.
Maybe petroleum prices will be so high in 2-5 years that Honda will be way ahead of the competition by developing hybrid technology, hydrogen power, and further refining small displacement gasoline engines. I, for one,am not too worried about Honda's future, but I am worried about our beloved NSX's future.:confused:
 
1. One of the biggest problems with Acura is that they are Hondas everywhere else in the World. Even the most successful Acura ever, the Legend. I actually own a 1989 HONDA Legend. It's a superb car. Kind of hard to justify a premium for the Acura badge when it's a really a luxury Honda. We all know that. I'd pay for the Luxory but not for the brand. Lexus has been smarter here making the Lexus brand more...ehh Luxurious. I've only heard of one domestic japanese market Toyotas that have been sold as Lexus in the states, all other models are lexus in the whole world.

2. The world has become more informed, so people in the States read about Japanese or European car shows, where their "expensive" Acure is branded as a Honda. Customers of luxury cars want to be a part of that special compay and pay a premium for that. That's the reason the top model Fiat is called a Ferrari everywhere in the World, a top model VW is called Audi (or Lambo) everywhere in the world.

3. I don't see th huge problem when Honda sells some 50000 less Acura Cars in the US compared to the competition, when the Honda Company sells some 3 million cars per year. They don't need to sell more. BMW is close to 1 million. If BMW sold 3 million cars, they too had to make up a luxury brand, because it would them be too common and that's a problem to any luxury car buyer.
That's why I don't care if the Acura brand sell few cars. They probably sell enough, keeping the brand alive. Honda makes the big bucks anyways. Maybe it's the other brands that are in trouble?? BMW for the people....do they want to go there? They might have a problem if sales rise like they have in the past.
 
NSXtasy_MD said:
If sales keep declining I wonder if Acura will be around 3-4 years from now.

Keep in mind that the author is looking at a decline in car sales over a 17-year time span. Acura is actually doing quite well, having successfully prepared for the shift from cars to trucks that virtually all automakers (even Porsche) are experiencing. Acura sales have been flat the last few years, but with a shift - car sales decreasing, truck (MD-X) sales increasing. The author is only focusing on the decrease in car sales, not on the increase in truck sales. Which is another fallacy in his argument.
 
I agree with some of what he says.

I think the naming convention is fine. Why is an E-class or 5-series naming convention any better?

I do think the RL is outclassed by its competition. I do think they need a V8... and I also think that V8 should be used in the NSX :)

Most luxury car makers are coming out with rear-wheel drive models. I think Acura should follow suit... or at least offer all-wheel drive like Audi.
 
The naming conventions really don't matter I don't think, call the thing whatever you want.

The V8 issue I think IS an important one, both BMW and Mercedes offer V8s (BMW even has a 12), and both have an in house tuner available on factory cars (M and AMG). Having big HP numbers to advertise with a big V8 can sell a lot of cars (think if the NSX had a V8, do you think it would sell more cars?).

Third the marketing aspect, we all know that many of Acura's cars are great values, the TL is a really nice car for ~30K, so is the RSX, but they don't sell, having a good product which doesn't sell shows me that their marketing is lacking.

The NSX we all think is one of the finest cars on the planet, yet the sales of it are pathetic, heck most people don't even know it exists, this shows how bad the marketing is.

Dealers & service. My local dealer is absolutely atrocious, they try to screw people every way they can on car purchases and on service, I refuse to take any of my families 5 Honda/Acura cars there. When I've complained about specific events to them (crashing a car when it was being serviced and trying to deny responsibility and do a shoddy repair) Honda of America just gives the company line that they are an independent entity and they can do as they please.
 
I agree with most of what you say, Chris. BTW...

cmarsh90 said:
we all know that many of Acura's cars are great values, the TL is a really nice car for ~30K, so is the RSX, but they don't sell

Actually, both those models sell quite well. They sold over 60,000 TL last year and over 30,000 RSX. That's not bad at all. The problem is that those are the only two Acura cars (not counting the MD-X) that sell well; sales of the CL, RL, and NSX range from slow to dreadful, and (along with the just-introduced TSX) those are the only other models. Contrast with the wider range of Lexus or M-B and you can see the effect that a greater selection has on sales.
 
Actually, both those models sell quite well. They sold over 60,000 TL last year and over 30,000 RSX. That's not bad at all. The problem is that those are the only two Acura cars (not counting the MD-X) that sell well; sales of the CL, RL, and NSX range from slow to dreadful, and (along with the just-introduced TSX) those are the only other models. Contrast with the wider range of Lexus or M-B and you can see the effect that a greater selection has on sales.

Fair enough Ken, I made an assumption, and you know what that makes:)

I don't have any experience with the CL or RL really. However, it is my impression that the RL costs too much for the car you get, perhaps if it had a V8 or a higher HP V6 it might sell better.

The NSX I think isn't marketed well, and is stuck in a niche market where people seem to want either cars with lots of perceived racing heritage (ie porsche) or lots of HP (ie Viper). So perhaps if Honda could increase the HP of the NSX (they could just slap a factory SC on the thing and accomplish that with the current car) and advertise it using Honda's long racing heritage (which is impressive, but seems to be forgotten by most) their domination of F1 in the early 90's (when this car was designed) and their current entries in F1 as well as Speed WC I think could accomplish that.

What cars do you guys think are the main competition for the NSX?
 
in 1987 when the brand was launched , I feel the corporate support was not there then. this article is well written in the sense Acura has always been second on the list in terms of product development, marketing support. It is a stand alone brand only in the States and the volume actually is quite small compared to the sales of Civics. This brand needs to go international and also at one time in the ealry 90's, there were plans to go to a new magic wagon/SUV.. it just taken too long and with the Odessey, we all know the volume there. Also naming the car RL, TL etc. was just me-too. V-8, will it ever happen?? the technology and expertise is there, but the corporate culture is a conservative one. why risk V-8, RWD and we are making money almost with every model we launch.. sad.. the next NSX.. will it be a reality is still to see.
 
cmarsh90 said:
What cars do you guys think are the main competition for the NSX?

Number 1 - NA Porsche 911. Closely matched in price and capability.

Number 2 - I'm not sure...

Ferrari? When the NSX was introduced, it cost a lot less than the Ferrari 348 and had much higher performance. Now the 360 Modena is Ferrari's bread-and-butter model and while it still costs a lot more than an NSX, its performance is a definite step up (if not quite equal to the 911 Turbo).

Corvette? Not a close match for the NSX in price - although the same was true when the NSX was first launched. Performance numbers on the Z06 version are better than those of the NSX, which was not true of the Corvette in late 1990 (not even the ZR-1).

Viper? Maybe. A close match for the NSX in price, but the philosophy is SOOOO different.

Lotus? They are just a blip on the sales chart.

Fact is, there aren't a lot of $73K sports cars out there right now. So my answer is, the Porsche 911 and not much else.
 
I agree Ken. So is that part of the problem with the NSX? That it DOESN'T have any competition? Kind of sounds weird, but all the other cars under 100K seem to be clustered at certain price points.
 
I'm genuinely curious about the desire for a V8. I've seen this mentioned on many threads over the past year. Do customers want a V8, or do they really just want more power?

I work in the software industry and, when discussing requirements with clients, focus on <b>what</b> they want the software to solve, not <b>how</b> they want the problem solved. We refer the <b>how</b> questions as implementation issues/details/designs. We believe that it should be left up to the vendor to produce a product that sates the clients' needs.

So (let me get back on track)...Relating to the article (or the NSX). What are the customers' needs?

My guess would be 'more power', although that may not be correct. If, in fact, it is more power, I wouldn't care how it is delivered as long as my other desires aren't sacrificed.

I realize that the issue isn't always 'more power'. Honda introduced a V6 in the Accord several years ago. The V6 wasn't <b>that</b> much faster than the I4 Accord, but the V6 did offer less NVH (and the perception of more luxury). Lotus also went through a similar change with the Esprit.

The E36 M3 and E46 M3 <b>feel</b> like they have V8s in them. To me, these engines are great (when they don't blow up). I'd never want a V8 in these cars that would offer the same performance and sound as the I6.

So, what are our desires? Power? Speed? Sound? Perception? NVH? Something else?

Thanks in advance
 
cmarsh90 said:
I agree Ken. So is that part of the problem with the NSX? That it DOESN'T have any competition? Kind of sounds weird, but all the other cars under 100K seem to be clustered at certain price points.

That last part is true. You have a bunch of cars at the $28-35K point, with more coming every day (350Z, WRXSTIABCDEFG, Evolution-Don't-Call-Me-Evo, RX8-9-10, S2K, etc) and a few more at the $50K point (Z06, M3, Boxster S).

I think the problem with the NSX is that it needs a styling update (not that it looks bad, just that it needs to look different after 13 years) and it needs more horsepower to quiet the naysayers (at least 400 hp). I also think they should lower the MSRP and make it closer to dealer cost. And last but not least, it needs some more aggressive marketing, including floor planning so that dealers don't have to pay to keep one in every Acura showroom.
 
What is Acura?

I agree in part with many of the comments here but I think that Acura's problem is differentiation.

Think about it - what is Acura and how does it differentiate itself from its competitors?

- Is it safety? Volvo / Merc
- Is it performance? BMW / Infinity
- Is it the highest quality? Lexus
- Is it the best service/support? Merc / Lexus
- Is it luxury? Merc / Lexus
- Is it style/design? Audi / Infinity
- Is it cutting edge technology?

As GM found after billions of dollars - "it is the product stupid". The idea of brand really means little compared to compelling products that differentiate themselves from their competitors.

In St. Louis the big Acura and Lexus dealers are owned by the same man and share the same lot for all intensive purposes. I go back and forth during service and the difference in the sales people, the service area, the donut quality, and most of all the luxury feel of the cars is dramatic.

It is OK if Acura is not as luxurious as Lexus - but it seems to me they are trying to be a "jack of all trades and the master of none" at a slightly lower cost. This is really dangerous territory since you will see more pressure from the Koreans IMO.

Acura hit a home run with the Odyssey/MDX/Pilot but the competition is getting smarter and many new crossover products with seating for 6 or more are here. It will be tough to maintain MDX sales over the next 3-5 years IMO and I don't see the product development and new model previews like I see from GM, Nissan, etc.

There is a great book by Jack Trout that has been reprinted and regenerated several times called - "Differentiate or Die" I would recommend to anyone that covers some of the concepts I think Acura should focus on.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/102-5717826-6785735?v=glance&s=books
 
The author makes some good points but some are contradictory. His last sentence says that Honda wanted luxury buyers to take their road rather than vice-versa. But in the beginning of the article he hammers home the opinion that changing to the alphanumeric system (similar to the others) was imprudent. (?)

I think that the #1 problem with Acura's marketing (relative to MB, Lexus, BMW) is lack of snob appeal. A soccer mom in her Lexus SUV couldn't care less about the number of cyclinders she has under the hood; what she wants is all the OTHER moms to know she has a Lexus when it's time to pick up the little tikes from practice. The others manufacturers work very hard making their cars appeal to yuppies. Acura isn't helping by allowing these cars to be called Hondas in other parts of the world. (How many people know Italian Lambo is owned by VW? Not many. And that's the way the Germans want to keep it).

Ironically since I am a car buff like most of you, when I see a Lexus I think of Toyota. I would never pay a premium for a Lexus when IMHO the softest, nicest leather seats I have been in were in a Toyota Camry (Solera?). What a nice car! But while Toyota keeps Lexus at arm's length, most Acura dealerships I have seen are adjacent to Honda dealerships. (See Acura - think Honda).

The NSX is taking a sales beating because it is so exclusive that not many people knew about it before the economy started tanking about 3 years ago. Even if it was marketed properly it is no surprise that $89K cars are not flying out of dealerships these days. I think the US sportscar market has always been dominated by red-blooded males and that the older, richer segment of that market will always crave a throwback to their youth and dictate what is mass-produced. Today that means cars reminiscent of the 1950's-1960's. In other words, horsepower. The Vipers, Corvettes, Mustangs, Cobras, etc are where the bulk of the demand is right now. (Did you catch muscle car prices at the Barrett-Jackson auction in January??) No one his/her 40's grew up with the NSX and it doesn't have the horsepower that 'most' people must have.

The NSX is awesome, but it only appeals to a niche market. Mass production is where the profit is and let's face it: corporations exist exclusively to make a profit. In 10-20 years, the tides will turn and the people who associate the NSX with true highway supremacy will yearn to have one (again), thereby driving prices up...and probably changing the day's styling back to the good ole days of the 1990's.
 
kgb_agent said:
<b>In 10-20 years, the tides will turn and the people who associate the NSX with true highway supremacy will yearn to have one (again), thereby driving prices up...and probably changing the day's styling back to the good ole days of the 1990's.</b>
__________________


DUH.... in 20 years the NSX won't even be around. And who in the hell would want to buy a car with styling from the 90's in the year 2023? Oh yeah the 90's was known for its killer style. Yeah right. I bet you listen to news radio too. YAWWWWNNNNNN!
 
heh, i think he's onto something. flashback retro has always been a feature. In the future the nsx will probably gain more notoriety, not less.

Re. the lexus vs. acura; i went into the lexus dealership with my cousin(like brothers). They called him by name, inquired about his wife and kids by name, asked how his other lexus was by model--and completely ignored me for this entire time. After administering to his needs, they then asked how I was and if i owned a lexus as well.

I dont know about other lexus dealers, but this was the epitome of LUXURY customer service. I dont get this at the RangerRover/Porsche/Benz dealer. If ford treated their customers this well, everyone would buy escorts. Psychologically, it made me consider buying lexus.

Exclusivity is about perception, not actual features. Their over the top customer treatment fosters the perception that you are part of an exclusive club entitling you to complete pampering. This was 'celebrity' treatment. When i asked my cousing how many times they went to this dealer, he said three times in the last year. He'd only met this dealer employee once. WOW!!!

Acura does not attempt to promote this perception of their brand. They are a 'good' value offering honda level service to their customers. If this is true of most lexus dealerships, Lexus is the smartest company out there. Im sure that now my cousin will always own at least one lexus, unless the service level completely changes. That is how toyota differentiates the lexus division from its toyota brand. Match competitors quality and provide superior service.
 
NSXtasy_MD said:
kgb_agent said:
<b>In 10-20 years, the tides will turn and the people who associate the NSX with true highway supremacy will yearn to have one (again), thereby driving prices up...and probably changing the day's styling back to the good ole days of the 1990's.</b>
__________________


DUH.... in 20 years the NSX won't even be around. And who in the hell would want to buy a car with styling from the 90's in the year 2023? Oh yeah the 90's was known for its killer style. Yeah right. I bet you listen to news radio too. YAWWWWNNNNNN!

MD, you seem relatively young--maybe just immature--by your post. Turn down your music videos and read what I wrote again. No shit the NSX probably won't be IN PRODUCTION in 2023, but NSX's will still be around just as '65 Mustangs and Corvette Stingrays are still around today.

My point was not comparing MY OPINION of which decade's styling was the best, but only that people gravitate what was popular in their younger years when they get older. Many people tend to purchase cars that remind them of these days. (hence, "good ole").

Two curious questions for you. (1) What decade would YOU say had the best automotive styling and (2) if the 1990's styling is not to your liking, why are you registered on a site devoted entirely to a car developed and produced in the 1990's??

I'm done with ya.
 
The 911 is a good "touche!" To add a couple of more though, how about nearly every Ferrari from 1965 through 1985. Many people feel that Ferraris best years are really behind them and that the latest cars have lacked that certain something that the old ones had. I don't necessarily agree with that (I wouldn't kick a 355 or 360 out of my garage! ;)), but the idea that "old cars" become useless is certainly a concept I've never heard among auto enthusiasts!

One more for ya: late 60's early 70's gas guzzling MOPAR. Arguably American muscle at its absolute pinnacle.
 
I think the article makes sense

Just a few comments to some of the things mentioned in this thread:

1) With regard to the naming convention, I think the author's point isn't that the alphanumeric convention is bad, its just that Acura had a competitive advantage in that there was high brand recognition for the Legend and the Integra and then the threw it away by changing to RSX, TL, CL, etc

2) I agree with the all the points around marketing, however, I would tie the V8 argument to one of marketing as well. I would assert:

-Lexus, BMW, MB all have v8 models that are probably only 20-30% of total sales, but they contribute much more to the overall perception of performance and prestige of the marque.
-One of Acura's major weaknesses is that they are not perceived as a player beyond entry-level luxury (e.g. there is no S-Class killer, there is no 7-series killer, there isn't even a BMW 540 or E500 killer)
-The general public care less about bhp and lbs-ft of torque and care more about displacement and cylinders.
-A v8 would help extend the perception of Acura as a player beyond the entry-level luxury market, however, that in itself probably isn't enough and that they need a significantly revamped RL

3) I think the issue of volume is almost a bit of red herring, I bet that the gross margin% for Lexus, MB, BMW are significantly higher than Acura overall. Tied to Ken's point around product development, the lower margins hamper Acura's ability to develop new products at a level of investment that is competitive with MB, BMW, and Lexus.
 
Few comments:

1) I never understood why they eliminated the highly successful Legend and Integra name brands.

2) With the exception of the NSX, I am inclined to agree with the author that Acura's styling is pretty bland - specially the TL.

3) For the most part, I agree with the article.
 
There is no substitute for cubic inches, especially true when it comes to performance luxury cars. You can put an FI to a four banger to make a killer sports car, but never a luxury car.

First off, l am a die hard Honda fan. In high school, when my friends talked about AMG Hammers, I went crazy over a Civic with B16 VTEC with Mugen cams. As I grew older and needed a sedan, I bought then, the only offerings from Honda that could be called a sports sedan. A 1994 Type II 230HP Legend GS to complement my NSX. When times came to replace and started looking at torquier luxury sports sedan, I couldn't find one from Honda. I bought a Lexus GS400 instead. My real life example was one less sale that Honda missed, because it didn't have a V8.
 
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