F1 2009 megathread

Re: Old guys rule

I was just reading the timing sheet and thinking the same thing. Granted, who knows what kind of times a Honda engine would be produced but I don't think the Honda engine would have been down on power - if at all - compared to the Mercedes.

Alfonso thinks the Brawn GP car times are real. And he's already sweating bullets. All I know is that I'm buying some Brawn GP gear as soon I can.

"Move over."

< - - - jumps on bandwagon.

I dont think this is just due to the mercedes powerplant because Lewis and the factory team arent even near those times. It seems like the chassis and aero package is superior to others. That with a combination of the merc engine is a winnig solution. BTW i hope the livery is as good or better than the old BAR livery which was my favorite!
 
Exactly right, IMHO. Honda F1 had 2 years to work on this car with the new regs and, JB has openly stated that some of the teams are trying parts that Honda had tried that resulted in small or no lap improvement.

I still think some of the teams are sandbagging to a small degree but, IMHO, Brawn GPs pace so far is real. Ross Brawn has never been a "showman." I'd find it hard to believe he's running a deceptive pace. If he is, it's solely to get into his competitors heads.
 
Re: From the horses mouth

Re: Live Testing Updates
Thought you all might enjoy these comments compiled by Atomi on the Ferrari Board:

FERRARI: Die sind eine Sekunde schneller als wir. Das ist doch gar nicht möglich", sagten Ferrari-Techniker unisono
Ferrari-technician: "They are one second faster than us. It can't be real."

RENAULT : "Als ich hier ankam war ich noch optimistisch, was unsere Chancen betrifft. Jetzt bin ich es nicht mehr"
Flavio: "When I arrived here I was still optimistic as far as our chances are concerned. Now I am not optimistic any more."

WILLIAMS : "Wenn sie die Rundenzeiten in Melbourne wiederholen können, die Button am Mittwochmorgen bei seinem Dauerlauf gezeigt hat, gewinnen Button und Barrichello den Grand Prix von Australien mit einer Runde Vorsprung"
Sam Michael: "If they can repeat these laptimes in Melbourne which were set by Button on Wednesday morning during his long stint, Button and Barrichello will win the Australian Grand Prix by one lap advantage."

Mercedes : "Das Team hatte viel mehr Zeit, das 2009er Auto zu entwickeln als alle anderen. Das zahlt ich jetzt aus"
Norbert Haug: "The team have had more time for developing the 2009's car than the others. It seems to pay off."

Honda is quirky. Sometimes that works (as in the NSX, sometimes not, as we've seen with the F-1 management debacle.) Since we, the common folk, are not sitting in on corporate board meetings, it's hard to believe how quirky and ridiculous things can get. Rubens put it quite delicately here:

Rubens Barrichello has suggested that a 'culture difference' and language barrier were the key elements separating Honda from success in Formula 1 in recent years – as he revealed his hopes that Brawn GP will turn out to be something of a hybrid of what he found at Ferrari and Stewart Grand Prix.

Honda was saved from F1 extinction by the recent management buy-out led by Ross Brawn, following the Japanese manufacturer's announcement back in December that it was withdrawing its official support with immediate effect.

The take-over not only rescued the 750-strong Brackley-based operation from collapse, but it also arguably prevented Barrichello's record-breaking career in the top flight from coming to an end, with Brawn – with whom the experienced Brazilian has worked closely at Ferrari and subsequently Honda for many years – electing to retain the 36-year-old in preference to taking a punt on 2008 GP2 Series runner-up Bruno Senna.

What's more, with the new, Mercedes-powered BGP001 having lapped impressively quickly and consistently in the hands of both Barrichello and team-mate Jenson Button during the major group test at Barcelona this week, the former is hopeful that his Indian summer may yet prove to be a highly successful one.

“Honda did brilliantly,” he told British newspaper The Independent, “and I am sorry to see them go, but you have to say there is always a culture difference and a difficulty in the language, so it was tough.

“All I have wanted to see at the team is what I found at Ferrari; they were really good at winning together and losing together. The team is quite small now, so it could be like that – that is what I am looking forward to working on, and I am sure Ross is in the same boat. That is what makes a competitive Formula 1 team.

“Are we going to be like a small Stewart family? It might be – a smaller team working together, not going through too many people to get an answer. It might work in our favour.”
 
Seems to me like Honda designed a superior car for 2009. The factory car is now much slower than the customer mercedes powered car. Supposedly Honda designed a superior aero package and one can only imaging what would have been had they stayed. Honda must be kicking themselves in the ass about now.
Cant wait for the season opener!

This is another bonehead mistake by Honda. They failed to upgrade/update/ properly promote/market the NSX. They failed to bring the HSC to production. They tried to produce that ugly thing ASCC. They brought us the ITR, but not other Type-R cars like the NSX-R. Honda denied an engine for Gordon Murray's McLaren F1 super car. Now they pulled out of F1 having built what seems like a superb chassis and aero package. :mad::mad::mad::mad::confused::confused::confused:
 
This is another bonehead mistake by Honda. They failed to upgrade/update/ properly promote/market the NSX. They failed to bring the HSC to production. They tried to produce that ugly thing ASCC. They brought us the ITR, but not other Type-R cars like the NSX-R. Honda denied an engine for Gordon Murray's McLaren F1 super car. Now they pulled out of F1 having built what seems like a superb chassis and aero package. :mad::mad::mad::mad::confused::confused::confused:

I feel the same way.

For all of Honda's successes, the amount of crap decisions they've made, and continue to make, are just as much. That's one big pile of stink.

But at least they're consistently big.
 
Re: Now we must be hallucinating

Perhaps Honda was the problem. Jenson has said that being a privateering team - with no Honda corporate involvement - has been a breath of fresh air. It seems that the team is actually happy to have Honda out of the picture, dispite having lost their source of funding.

Alonso made a very interesting comment yesterday about Honda/BR regarding how different it looks from other cars, and how strange this car can be the fastest straight out of the box with almost no reliability problems. That is a very encouraging sign. Alonso is very honest about his preseason opinions.

I think Honda realized that problem two years ago when they removed the "Japanese" aero designer and brought in Ross Brown. That is why they scrapped the 2008 development straight into 2009, with a car that is designed completely by Ross Brown. So in a way, this is still a Honda financed chassis.

I still like to see Honda back as an engine supplier. I read some thing two weeks ago on a Japanese website about why Honda opted to sell the team to Ross Brown instead of Ecclstone was because Honda left the door open to buy back the team in the future if Ross Brown want out due to financial stress. Probably a speculation but I like the idea.

Regardless, I think Jenson and Ruben are the two top under achievers due to bad cars, I like to see them win some races this year. In fact, with the success of the pre season testing so far, I expect them to do better than their BAR/Honda 2004 season (second place finish), because there is no longer a MS/Ferrari domination.
 
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Lol Vance you have a Brawn-Brown Apraxia.:eek:
 
I agree with Vance. I hate to see very good drivers not win because of a bad car. Jenson and Rubens are prime examples of that.
BTW....When is the season opener??
 
Re: Sandbagging?

I still think some of the teams are sandbagging to a small degree
Here's a theoretical possibility I ran across that bears some consideration:
I don't think McL are sandbagging just getting valuable data for their simulators in a methodical way for when testing is banned during the season. This extra data they get now will be invaluable for further developing the car in the computer more accurately. I think these tests have been all about calibration of the simulator to the real-world. From the images of the diffuser it looks like they have it blanked so don't have full rear end grip. It appears they were using the 2008 rear wing to set up/calibrate the front of their car while keeping their new diffuser under wraps. The in-season test ban is a huge change to the rules so why wouldn't one expect teams to be changing the way they use the precious pre-season testing differently? If I am right then McL look like they may have taken a lead already. Expect a Macca one two in Oz.
Of course I'd be a lot more convinced if this was some very early testing instead of it being this late in the pre-season.
 
Re: Macca's troubles

"McLaren: MotherF*%@. We're not ready."
Yeah, I think the fact that they were doing the dye application, now at this open test instead of much earlier and privately, indicates they are desperate. And I'd bet Hamo put it into the tires because he was frustrated and over-driving it. :redface:

Tedroe, you're smarter than you look
Thank you. We engineers take that as a compliment. :tongue: But I'm starting a new and somewhat different job next week; so it'll be interesting to see if I oversold myself. :eek:
 
Technical analysis: Brawn GP BGP 001

Despite a winter of uncertainty and a low-key shakedown, the team formerly known as Honda Racing has been reincarnated as Brawn GP. Considering the poor performances of Honda in recent years, the new car's pace in its first tests has been astounding.

The neat little BGP 001 hides some unique features to its pace such as clever front suspension, a 'snow plough' bargeboard and complex diffuser, as well as the weight distribution advantage of not having KERS.

Now under the ownership of Ross Brawn, the team's personnel remains largely the same, while its new car is effectively the car Honda planned to race this year, but re-badged and re-engined. That is to say that the work on this car's design was commenced 15 months ago and largely completed while the team was still backed by the manufacturer.

Commercial negotiations to purchase the team continued all the way through to the end of February. Simultaneously a deal to gain access to customer Mercedes engines was agreed and work was completed to redesign the car for the new engine.

At first, the car appears to be quite a conventional design, but the closer you look at the details, the more the innovation becomes apparent. It's obvious that the car has benefited from a lot of development since the project was prioritised last year, as a result of the poor performance of the RA108 campaigned by Honda Racing.

Starting at the front, the wide nose is as low as rules permit, at no less than 125mm high. Brawn GP appears to be the only team with this low approach: the shape is aided by two strakes running high up on the edges of the nosecone. More conventional is the front wing, which uses a two-element flap and an angular transition from the main plane towards the wing tips.

Then again less conventional are the endplates, which are made up of overlapping vanes, in an effort to remove the vertical part of the endplate above the wing. New rules for 2009 demand a minimum surface area for several sections of the endplates, in an effort to ensure teams run full width wings and not simply keep the narrower versions allowed in 2008.

Brawn GP has still produced a full width wing, but effectively the wingtip curls down to form the bottom half of the endplate, rather than an endplate being formed by vertical fence added to the wing tip. To meet the rules a large vane has been added to the foot plate to create sufficient side profile area.

Having no endplate makes the high pressure flow above the wing tip spill down the sides and around the front wheel, which also usefully reduces drag, offsetting the negative impact of the wider wing.

Making the design even more complex is the separate cascade element added to the top of the wing's surface. Controlling the flow off the front wing, Brawn GP has uniquely positioned the steering rack low down in line with the lower wishbone.

By doing this the team is allowed to have a more streamlined lower wishbone shape as it's in tandem with the steering arm. This is important as the front wing is so much lower down this and the wishbones are hugely influential in managing the wing's flow back over the rest of the car. This feature may have defined the need for such a low nosecone.

Beneath the raised chassis is an innovative feature in the form of a snow plough solution, similar to that sported last week by Williams. Starting from the splitter, a curved horizontal vane rises up to pick up the airflow passing under the nose.

As bargeboards in their conventional location are banned, the only place to put a vane is under the raised part of the chassis. Thus the Brawn GP solution is effectively a bargeboard mounted on its side.

The tumbling vortex of air spilling off the edge of the plough heads under the raised floor of the sidepods and feeds the diffuser higher pressure air. This allows the diffuser to flow more air and hence create a lot more downforce. This might be a critical feature in the BGP 001's pace.

Even with this device the car also sports small turning vanes mounted just ahead of the sidepods. Also aiding flow over the sidepods are the mirror mounts, which like Force India use excessively long mounts to act at flow straighteners. In the BGP 001's case the mirror mounts are split to form a two element winglet-like appearance. While they may produce some downforce, their shape is most likely to control the flow over the sidepods as they drop away towards the rear of the car.

The car's sidepods themselves are incredibly small - the inlet is positioned McLaren-style, high and wide, leaving the maximum space for the undercut to send flow around the car.

One factor in their tiny size is that the team is not going to run KERS, thus the car only needs to cool the engine, and not the additional hardware required for KERS. This means its radiators and ducting are correspondingly smaller.

Not only is the inlet small, but the sidepods waste away to a very narrow exit. To maintain a reasonable exit size, the team ends the sidepod earlier than other teams, its small size aided by exiting the exhausts above it in their own fairings. The car also appears to exit hot air under the gearbox fairing and rear crash structure, as part of a complex diffuser solution.

The diffuser is a 'double decker' design: the 'U' shaped centre section does not form the roof of the diffuser, but is simply the lower deck of the set-up. The upper deck is formed around the crash structure and hence is a few centimetres higher than the limit of 175mm - this extra exit area is critical in gaining downforce.

Conversely, the rear wing is quite conventional as are the endplates, the lower beam wing spans the full width between the endplates, as the impact structure is shaped to pass below it, making the rain light appear lower than it really is. Flow to the rear wing is aided by a McLaren-style roll hoop - the undercut snorkel is supported by two struts leaving very little structure to the rear.

If the exterior is visibly well developed, then the mechanical and electronic work beneath the skin is not obvious, but was a huge task for the team to integrate its chassis and carbon gearbox to the Mercedes engine.

Unlike Force India's arrangement with McLaren-Mercedes for engine and gearbox, Brawn GP has simply gained an engine supply. It is reported that the team had options on both Ferrari and Mercedes engines, the latter chosen as the integration with the Honda chassis and gearbox was deemed easier. This would not only be the physical joining of the three interfaces (chassis\engine\gearbox) but also the revisions to fuel and cooling packaging and electronic integration.

Honda had already developed and track-tested its KERS system last year, using a flywheel system developed in conjunction with Flybrid. Unlike any other team, this was to be a pure flywheel solution mounted inside the front of the fuel tank, running off the front of the engine. This would not have required the same cooling and complex packaging demands as the electric or flywheel\electric solutions seen on its rivals.

As yet the team does not have plans to run KERS. Considering its late start to the season and limited budget, this seems to be a sensible route to take, as KERS is not mandatory in 2009. This choice might even have gained Brawn GP some of its pace, as the car can be configured to run ballast in the most efficient places (i.e. towards the front) rather than some 30Kg of the ballast being replaced by the KERS system in less efficient locations.

With the compressed timescales to get the BGP 001 ready for the first race, the car will continue to test in Jerez next week to gain the most track time possible before setting off for Australia.
 
Lol Vance you have a Brawn-Brown Apraxia.:eek:

Don't hate!!!

Ross Brown had the most consistent winning record of any F1 designer within the last twenty years. Not even Adrian Newey.

He's responsible for all 7 Michael Schumacher's driver's championship, and 9 constructors championship (off the top of my memory, 1994/95 Beneton, 1999-2006 Ferrari).

The man knows what he's doing. He had the huge budget from Honda last year and the 2009 car is the finish product.

Now the waiting game... First race for result.
 
I'm not hating:confused: I'm just trying to diagnose your inability to type Brawn :wink: I like to make diagnoses:smile: its my profession.
 
I'm not hating:confused: I'm just trying to diagnose your inability to type Brawn :wink: I like to make diagnoses:smile: its my profession.

Don't hate!!!:biggrin:
 
Vance at least allow me to be confused,but now back to the topic......:wink:
 
Re: Too much change??

Well, conspiracy buffs, waddya thinkin' now? Bernie likes to shake it up and keep it interesting. But have things gotten out of hand? He can't have the backmarkers humilitiating the red cars and his boy Hamo, now can he? :eek:

Not to fear, I'm sure he'll come up with something. :wink:
 
Honda will bite themselves in the ass for letting 'their' car drive under the label 'Brawn' adn quitting F1. :) Good job of good old Brawn. BUT please remind that a F1 car is NOT the result of only ONE man. Of course Brawn is a central figure and he knows how to manage the technical side of a F1 car to a winning TEAM. The public has a tendacy to goodwill/blame ONE person if the hole team wins/looses. I'm pretty sure the engineers in Brackley worked very hard to not loose their job.

Two sidenotes: The new aerodynamic regulations make the F1 cars looks rediculous, like a snowplow. :tongue:

No offense but does a woman (like Danica) wear a carbon bra to sustain g-forces of over 4 g's? :tongue::D
 
Re: It gets better; Button is now the odds on favorite

I'm gonna enjoy it while it lasts...........

Jenson Button 7/2
Kimi Raikkonen 4/1
Felipe Massa 5/1
Robert Kubica 11/2
Lewis Hamilton 11/2
Fernando Alonso 6/1
Rubens Barrichello 8/1
Sebastien Vettel 14/1
Nick Heidfeld 25/1
Heikki Kovalainen 33/1
Mark Webber 33/1
Timo Glock 40/1
Jarno Trulli 50/1
Nico Rosberg 80/1
Nelson Piquet Jr 100/1
Seb Bourdais 125/1
Seb Buemi 150/1
Kazuki Nakajima 150/1
Adrian Sutil 200/1
G Fisichella 200/1

http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/EN/betting/g/8645/Race-Winner.html

Brackley folks are prolly feeling like Cinderella wondering what time it is. :rolleyes:
 
Re: It gets better; Button is now the odds on favorite

I'm gonna enjoy it while it lasts...........

Jenson Button 7/2
Kimi Raikkonen 4/1
Felipe Massa 5/1
Robert Kubica 11/2
Lewis Hamilton 11/2
Fernando Alonso 6/1
Rubens Barrichello 8/1
Sebastien Vettel 14/1
Nick Heidfeld 25/1
Heikki Kovalainen 33/1
Mark Webber 33/1
Timo Glock 40/1
Jarno Trulli 50/1
Nico Rosberg 80/1
Nelson Piquet Jr 100/1
Seb Bourdais 125/1
Seb Buemi 150/1
Kazuki Nakajima 150/1
Adrian Sutil 200/1
G Fisichella 200/1

http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/EN/betting/g/8645/Race-Winner.html

Brackley folks are prolly feeling like Cinderella wondering what time it is. :rolleyes:

I hope either Jenson or Rubens takes it this year.
I'll be happy if they just get Constructors Championship, because deep down we know it's a Honda chassis. ;)
 
Re: Respect now. Whodathunkit?

From James Allen's website.
Felipe Massa ended this week’s Barcelona test with a positive message for Ferrari fans around the world, “We have the car we had hoped for.” The only problem is, there’s another car in front of it.
The F60 has suffered a few reliability problems this week, a leak in the cooling system prevented Raikkonen from completing a race distance on Tuesday, while Massa lost some time with a hydraulics problem. However the pace of the car has been class leading, leaving aside the Brawn-Mercedes, and Massa heads for Melbourne feeling that he has a car which is capable of fighting for the world title again.
“The car has grown a lot, ” he told Italian reporters. “To start the season well you need a car which is fast and will make it to the finish line, lots can change during the season, but the points lost at the start can be decisive.”

.................
As for his expected rivals, McLaren, Massa admits to being astonished by their poor showing,
“I’ve never seen McLaren so far behind,” he says. “However they have another test to find out what’s wrong. It’s a team which can improve from one day to the next so we need to give them respect.”...........
 
Caterpillars outpaces Brawn duo in Jerez:

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Alonso Renault (B) 1:18.343 103
2. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:18.398 62
3. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:18.892 12
4. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:19.513 85
5. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:19.783 123

I'm getting the feeling with each passing day that their pace is the real deal. Now I hope their rear diffusor passes FIA inspection. The fat Ommpa Lumpa (Flavio Briatore) is crying foul now.
 
Re: Wow, new reasons to sweat ;-)

Fred had 0.05 on Ruby and Hamo is now only 1.2 seconds back. :eek: OMG, what's Ross gonna do now??? Don't look back Ruby !! :rolleyes:

A lot of testing on one car. And only one engine? Anyway, pretty remarkable reliability so far, except for the pesky gearbox that has broke, what, twice?

Rock on. What's the hour count-down til Peter is strolling on pre-grid?
 
Caterpillars outpaces Brawn duo in Jerez:

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. Alonso Renault (B) 1:18.343 103
2. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:18.398 62
3. Button Brawn-Mercedes (B) 1:18.892 12
4. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:19.513 85
5. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:19.783 123

I'm getting the feeling with each passing day that their pace is the real deal. Now I hope their rear diffusor passes FIA inspection. The fat Ommpa Lumpa (Flavio Briatore) is crying foul now.


2nd & 3rd, still impressive! I don't mind Caterpillars being out in front of them either, as long as it's not Hambone. :biggrin: good old Rubinho will show him what he's still got. ;) Same with Jenson.
 
Re: Lucky or good?

James Allen still thinks they are that good.

Jenson Button Brawn GP 00:01'17''844 114
Nico Rosberg Williams 00:01'18''071 00:00'00''227 66
Nelson Piquet Jr Renault 00:01'18''382 00:00'00''538 128
Lewis Hamilton McLaren 00:01'19''121 00:00'01''277 118

I wonder if they put some green on the car today? :biggrin:

Well, here's hoping they don't get busted on some rule technicality.

Edit: any in case some still think Brawn is putting in a flyer to catch the headlines, look at these times today. (Obviously they must be underweight or illegal in some way :wink: :rolleyes:)

Button: Every lap in the 18s except the first.

1.19:186
1.18:604
1.18:883
1.18:646
1.18:492
1.18:712
1.18:545
1.18:620
1.18:750
1.18:820


Shortly afterwards Rosberg did a 10-lap stint:

1.19:623
1.19:905
1.20:575
1.20:335
1.20:299
1.20:159
1.20:391
1.20:024
1.20:469
1.20:571

Nelson Piquet also did a 10-lapper:

1.20:202
1.20:140
1.19:906
1.19:914
1.19:416
1.20:016
1.19:977
1.20:052
1.20:020
1.19.911
 
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