F1 2008 Megathread

[92 white 0650]

Re: Rubens or Jens, What's a Honda to do??

JB is likely to be fired to make room for Alonso...

The latest rumor-mongoring send Rubens down the road.

http://www.eurosport.yahoo.com/04082008/58/alonso-set-7-6m-honda-switch.html

And only £7.6 m? That's less than $15 mill? I thought they were letting him "name his price". Oh, maybe it's more than the money; they have to get rid of the lime green? I still think money is not his first priority right now.

Oh well, we'll have forgotten this particular rumor by tomorrow and be idly speculating on others. :redface:

Fact of the matter is, according to some, that Honda does not have a premier lead designer. Anyone else believe that is their primary weakness at this point, and if so, isn't it a little late for the 09 design?

 

[ak]

Why would Alonso want anything to do with Honda???? Honda's problem right now has to do with their car and not the drivers.

 

[Honcho]

Why would Alonso want anything to do with Honda???? Honda's problem right now has to do with their car and not the drivers.

+1

JB and RB are experienced drivers with a demonstrated capacity to podium - even with an unreliable car, they had a great 2006 season. They also are familiar with the workings of the Honda F1 team. The last thing Honda should do is upset this one stable part of an otherwise out of control racing program. 92 White 0650 is absolutely correct, it is a design and engineering issue. Despite having the financial muscle of a major world manufacturer, Honda is somehow unable to design, test and campaign a race car that allows its drivers to extract the maximum possible performance. Both JB and RB have complained (about RA107 and RA108) that they are constrained in what they can do with the car due to its design. There seems to be a disconnect between the engineers and the drivers

While the team is blaming adapting to the FIA rule changes for its design woes, it seems to me that there is more to it. Lack of a good lead designer? Maybe. Probably. The team doesn't appear to have a coherent design strategy, or be able to incorporate the input of its drivers. Kinda like Honda's attempt to design the next NSX lol:biggrin:

Didn't Nakamoto come over from bikes?

 

[Juice]

Why would Alonso want anything to do with Honda???? Honda's problem right now has to do with their car and not the drivers.

+2

And besides, Alonso is a prick. How the hell can they expect me to cheer for such an asshole?

 

[BD]

+2

And besides, Alonso is a prick. How the hell can they expect me to cheer for such an asshole?

Senna was a prick, so was Schumy. Doesn't matter, they're good and they win. Mr. Nice guy don't win races.

http://planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_3908897,00.html

 

[Ponyboy]

Blackmailing your team and contributing to a 100 million fine is on a whole other level on the ginormous prick scale.

And Mr. Nice Guys do win races and championships. Consider:

- Phill Hill
- Dan Gurney
- Mark Donohue
- Jackie Stewart
- Juan Fangio

...all considered to be some of the best drivers ever. And that's just a few from a long long list.

 

[BD]

Blackmailing your team and contributing to a 100 million fine is on a whole other level on the ginormous prick scale.

And Mr. Nice Guys do win races and championships. Consider:

- Phill Hill
- Dan Gurney
- Mark Donohue
- Jackie Stewart
- Juan Fangio

...all considered to be some of the best drivers ever. And that's just a few from a long long list.

Find me a nice guy within 25/30 years.

Black mailing was a story, never proven. What went on within McLaren was never fully made public.

Regardless, if you don' think Alonso is a good choice, who is? And who is willing?

 

[Honcho]

I don't think it matters who is driving the car. The car is the problem right now, not the driver. If you put Alonso, Massa or Hamo in that slow car, they'd be bringing up the rear just like Jenson and Rubens right now. If I were Honda, I'd take that $15mil I'm waving in front of Alonso and instead spend it on fixing the RA108 or R&D on the RA109.

 

[Ponyboy]

Find me a nice guy within 25/30 years.

Do your own research. It's more fulfilling that way.

Black mailing was a story, never proven. What went on within McLaren was never fully made public.

Wrong. The exact discovery and process of leaked Ferrari information, Alonso's attempt at blackmail, and his contribution to the 100 million fine is well documented and fully public.

Regardless, if you don' think Alonso is a good choice, who is? And who is willing?

My experience in hiring egotastic prima donnas is that they implode whatever team their in and/or bail as soon as the fight gets interesting. There is little question of Caterpillars' ability but quite a bit in his leadership potential. If Ron Dennis and Flavio couldn't manage this guy's ego, what makes Brawn and Fry think they can?

If Caterpillars gets a seat at Honda F1, IMHO, it's b/c of the huge marketing appeal tied to a previous F1 DC.

 

[Ponyboy]

The car is the problem right now, not the driver. If you put Alonso, Massa or Hamo in that slow car, they'd be bringing up the rear just like Jenson and Rubens right now. If I were Honda, I'd take that $15mil I'm waving in front of Alonso and instead spend it on fixing the RA108 or R&D on the RA109.

Honda F1 ceased development of the RA108 several weeks ago - maybe even a few months ago. There are development stages that were tested and may make their way onto the '08 throughout the seaons but, from what I've read, all of the R&D is going into the RA109 and their KERS system.

The RA108 is, fundamentally, an evolutionary step up from the RA107 which was born of an aero and design team long gone. The head of aero, Loic Bigois, just came to Honda in '07 (IIRC) and Jorg Zander just came this year. They can only revise the basic aero concept to minor degrees.

So there's not a whole lot that can be done w/ the present car. All R&D focus is on next year's car.

 

[Ponyboy]

BMW KERS accident:

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Ouch!

 

[BD]

Do your own research. It's more fulfilling that way.

I guess you don't have an answer on this one. The last true gentleman was probably Damon Hill, he missed out 2 world championship to MS for "being" nice. He learned and took what was his from JV and never look back; don't forget, Williams was on JV's side during his championship winning year!!!

Wrong. The exact discovery and process of leaked Ferrari information, Alonso's attempt at blackmail, and his contribution to the 100 million fine is well documented and fully public.

His "contribution?" How about FIA just don't like McLaren and Alonso was a "witness" within the investigation? You can't blackmail some one who's been caught of committing a crime by telling the cops what you know because you're at the wrong place at the wrong time.

My experience in hiring egotastic prima donnas is that they implode whatever team their in and/or bail as soon as the fight gets interesting. There is little question of Caterpillars' ability but quite a bit in his leadership potential. If Ron Dennis and Flavio couldn't manage this guy's ego, what makes Brawn and Fry think they can?

If Caterpillars gets a seat at Honda F1, IMHO, it's b/c of the huge marketing appeal tied to a previous F1 DC.

How about this one, Ron Dennis probably told him that he will be their #1 driver and ended up treating Hamilton better by NOT supporting Alonso, therefore, they self destructed after loosing out on Constructor's championship? I guess you're not old enough to witness what McLaren was like back in the 80's and 90's.

BTW, Flavio promised him a championship winning car and couldn't deliver. AND Please tell what kind of ego problem Alonso has with Renault. Please tell me!!!

Where do you get your information from?

Therefore according to you. Honda should stay within the bottom 3 after spending 100's of millions and years of investment, they should just keep staying there because you don't like a 2x world champion with a ego problem to drive for them? There is a pattern with the way you think, if you know what I mean.:wink: Don't forget, MS is probably the biggest ass, he cheats, he demands, and he gets. His ego is probably bigger than any one out there in the history of F1, and every one one wanted him.

There are 20 drivers and only one winner each year. If you're good, you get your name out, prove you can drive, go to the best team, and ask to be the #1 driver with full support of the team. That's how you win in modern day F1. If you have to fight it out with your team mate or the team, you do what you have to. Every one is hungry, and the pie is not big enough for more than one person.

 

[Ponyboy]

I guess you don't have an answer on this one. The last true gentleman was probably Damon Hill, he missed out 2 world championship to MS for "being" nice.

You just quoted my answer and provided an answer to your own question. Good job BTW.

Regarding the rest of your post, the WMSC verdict and Alonso's negligent role and provision of evidence is on www.formula1.com as well as other sites. Unlike others, I don't base my "pattern" of thinking on just on abstract conspiracy theories.

 

[BD]

You just quoted my answer and provided an answer to your own question. Good job BTW.

Regarding the rest of your post, the WMSC verdict and Alonso's negligent role and provision of evidence is on www.formula1.com as well as other sites. Unlike others, I don't base my "pattern" of thinking on just on abstract conspiracy theories.

NICE!!!

Please allow me to understand this one...

Mr. Ponyboy's ideal F1 team: Hire nice drivers, and if the team sucks, just keep pouring money into the project, if the team still don't produce result because the engineers and the drivers don't perform, start a thread about he "The crappy F1 team club." so every out of business F1 team can put their name on the list as the laughing stock of that trade?:tongue::biggrin::wink:

lmao!!!

 

[docjohn]

It will be tough for any team let alone Honda to attract or entice any top runners when the car is only midpack,giving up on this seasons car will make that problem worse.They may end up with the same drivers next year,or someone just looking for a seat for a year.thank God I finaly watched the race so I could log onto this thread.Btw thanks again Pony for starting this so I don't get sucked spoiler punched like last season!

 

[BD]

Regardless what people think about Alonson, he will be a welcome addition to any team. Top or bottom.

With Ross Brown if next season's car perform well, Alonso surely will stay and grow with the team. It's racing, the goal is win, in order to win, you need the best driver line up possible. I also have no doubt that JB can perform if the car is right. He was third in 2004 with some of the most brilliant performance similar to Jean Alesi or Gerhard Berger.

 

[Juice]

The point here remains that the car here is the problem, not the drivers. It does not seem fair (as if it matters) that RB or JB gets thrown under the bus after sticking with Honda despite knowing that they don't even have a "mid-pack" car. Because it's not. It is a piece of crap, relative to the field. If it were me driving, I would find it hard not to drive the car into the wall on first stint just to get the damn piece of junk out from under me so I could get back to enjoying the rest of my race day.

Alonso would make a great addition, as long as EVERYONE knows who the big boss man is and are ready nurse his nipple needing baby lips. Button better know how to corner brake wide so that his teamate can pass whenever Alonso feels his egometer reach critical mass, even if Button happens to be the better driver once in comparable cars.

And what about poor RB? Here is a joker who left Ferrari just to prove himself, and got stuck in what is one of the biggest jokes in F1. Honda promised him a car and a leading role, just like they are ready to promise to Alonso. Same story, different whining little girl to entertain. But unlike Alonso, RB has aged and learned to appreciate the situation. His driving has matured, he has finally found hope in Ross Braun, and is starting to show Button what more experience can get you out on the track. To steal the light at the end of the tunnel would be doing this guy an injustice.

 

[Honcho]

Exactly. I don't think it's fair to blame the drivers when the car is consistently 1-2 seconds off the pace. In fact, I was reading somewhere that they are saying JB blew his chance at greatness and failed to step up after moving to Honda, but is it really his fault? He had a good 2006 with an unreliable car, but then bombed in 2007 when Honda gave him a brick with wheels to drive. Big surprise. JB and RB both have a demonstrated ability to score points when the car works right lol. It was painful having to watch their forced smiles and desperate attempts to find something good to say about the team in the press conferences. How do you speak well of a 16th place finish? "Well, we learned a lot about the car this week and got some good data to help us better prepare for next week...we're making progress" Ha.

That is why I don't believe Honda should waste time/money/distraction on shuffling its drivers. It should focus 100% on making the RA109 as fast and reliable as possible. If you give RB and JB a competitive car, they will get you podiums and points. Winning races is about consistency. A brilliant performance at one race and then blowing the next four might be exciting for the press, but it means nothing to the team. Honda's drivers are a consistent, stable factor of the team that shouldn't be upset. If the RA109 is an awesome car, but they put in a new driver who is unfamiliar with the team, they may end up in exactly the same situation as this season, except in 2009, the car and not the driver will be the stable element.

 

[swbatte]

The weak link in Honda's chain is not their drivers. Either one could win races with a competitive car.

Ross is doing what he did at Ferrari. Start with the logistics, get a championship winning capable driver and build the team around him. Ruebens is an excellent #2, and has proven that previously. Button is a fantastic driver, but unproven as a championship winner or a #2.

None of this matters though until Honda builds a car that can win. I had hoped they'd be competitive in 09, but I'm not holding my breath. It's clear that they've given up on developing this year's car though - they must be focused on the next one.

 

[Ponyboy]

Please allow me to understand this one...

I don't think you understand at all. I'm done with discussing the topic with someone with an emotional hair trigger. Reasonable and rational discussion doesn't appeal to you and it's obviously a very sensitive topic.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Though I have no idea where you rec'd the content above in your rant of what you think my thoughts are (which was very weird BTW), it's not the end of the world. Meh, who cares.

 

[Ponyboy]

Pony for starting this so I don't get sucker spoiler punched like last season!

You're welcome, doc! Glad I could help. Already planning for the 09 thread too.:wink:

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Drivers are part of the package

Harping on the car alone seems to dismiss the element of driver developement and feedback that the engineers need. Didn't Ross call Nando "the only complete driver" comparable to Schumi? Not to take anything away from JB and RB, but Nando is acknowledged to excell there, which is why Ross would take him for just one year.

For Nando's part, the slate is clean for next year with the new rules. So, assuming he's got at least a year to wait for his Red car ride, he could be thinking he could easily be on the cutting edge given that Honda has 1) Ross, 2) a commitment to KERS and history of pulling off new tech, 3) money and resources. And that's just what we know. Lord knows what he really knows about where the advantages will lie next year. If Honda has any chance with him, he's no doubt in secret negotiations with Ross talking about the technical aspects and not even thinking about the money.

All speculation, but I think I'll call up Peter Windsor to compare notes.

 

[BD]

I don't think you understand at all. I'm done with discussing the topic with someone with an emotional hair trigger. Reasonable and rational discussion doesn't appeal to you and it's obviously a very sensitive topic.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Though I have no idea where you rec'd the content above in your rant of what you think my thoughts are (which was very weird BTW), it's not the end of the world. Meh, who cares.

I hope so...

The only thing that can cause the world to end is Global Warming!!!

:wink: What can I say, I have lots of free time and think deep. Deeper than most people can comprehend:biggrin:

Exactly. I don't think it's fair to blame the drivers when the car is consistently 1-2 seconds off the pace. In fact, I was reading somewhere that they are saying JB blew his chance at greatness and failed to step up after moving to Honda, but is it really his fault? He had a good 2006 with an unreliable car, but then bombed in 2007 when Honda gave him a brick with wheels to drive. Big surprise. JB and RB both have a demonstrated ability to score points when the car works right lol. It was painful having to watch their forced smiles and desperate attempts to find something good to say about the team in the press conferences. How do you speak well of a 16th place finish? "Well, we learned a lot about the car this week and got some good data to help us better prepare for next week...we're making progress" Ha.

That is why I don't believe Honda should waste time/money/distraction on shuffling its drivers. It should focus 100% on making the RA109 as fast and reliable as possible. If you give RB and JB a competitive car, they will get you podiums and points. Winning races is about consistency. A brilliant performance at one race and then blowing the next four might be exciting for the press, but it means nothing to the team. Honda's drivers are a consistent, stable factor of the team that shouldn't be upset. If the RA109 is an awesome car, but they put in a new driver who is unfamiliar with the team, they may end up in exactly the same situation as this season, except in 2009, the car and not the driver will be the stable element.

You guys are way off on this one. Simply put, there is a reason why "almost" great drivers such as Jean Alesi, Gerhard Berger, Damon Hill, Jac Villnueve couldn't perform when the car simply isn't good. Driver's responsibility is not only to drive the car to their best ability, but also to help during the development process. That is why people like MS, Senna, Prost Piquet, Mansell were able to do. If the drivers are not producing, a team should look for alternative. If I'm running Honda today, and Alonso is in the bag, I would get rid of the older driver (RB in this case because he's time is up) of the team simply because the younger driver can still learn. Why would Ferrari pay MS $50 million a year back in 1997? So MS can help them on the development of the car. Engineers can predict the way the car will drive, it's up to the driver to offer feedback and suggestion to make the car great.

The current generation of F1 drivers are just too young and they depend way too much on the car instead of their actual ability to driver.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Time for a poll?

What can I say, I have lots of free time and think deep. Deeper than most people can comprehend

Care to put that to a vote?

 

[BD]

Re: Time for a poll?

Care to put that to a vote?

Go for it!!!:wink::biggrin: In fact, put your name on the pole as well so we have a standard