DOT 4 vs. "SuperBlue" for HDPE's

DCNSX

DCNSX

Experienced Member
Joined
7 October 2002
Messages
656
Location
Chapel Hill NC
How crucial is it to upgrade brake fluid for HDPE's ? I do about 8 track days per year, otherwise just weekend road use. I'm pretty sure I'll upgrade to SuperBlue when I change rotors and pads (scheduled for after 4 days of upcoming HPDE) and I'll install SpeedBleeders at that time as well. But I do have four potentially very hot days of HPDE in the meantime - at VIR (Grand East) in VA in June and CMP in SC in July. FYI- I'm not particularly hard on brakes on the track.

And while I'm on the subject of brakes, are the Dali brake deflectors worth it? TIA- Howard
 
Thanks, guys. SuperBlue, Dali Deflectors and SpeedBleeders on order.
 
Fresh brake fluid is essential, because brake fluid absorbs moisture over time, and this lowers its boiling point, making it more susceptible to boiling. Similarly, the higher the fluid boiling point, the more resistance to boiling. That's why I use Motul RBF 600, which has a boiling point 57 degrees higher than ATE SuperBlue and is widely available, and reasonable in price. I've never boiled the Motul brake fluid.

Here is a list of many popular brake fluids, arranged by dry boiling point, including typical prices, as well as the DOT minimums:

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($9.95/1L)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($5.65/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600 ($16.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($69.00/1L 0R 33.8 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($26.75/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610 ($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- PROSPEED GS610 ($39.95/16 OZ)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($16.95/0.5L 16.9 OZ)
 
My recommended track lapper’s recipe:

Motul 600 (just love it) had once fluid turn all brownish but brakes pedal feel still stiff.. good stuff only it’s a little spendy these days. $11-15 a bottle. Still a bargain in terms of its performance. See nsxtasy’s post above.

Speedbreeder (A must.)

Stoptech Aero rotor: quite expensive, but I could say it could last longer than other Generic one piece rotor and OEM. With its excellent cooling ability, I had never cooked my brake fluid anymore, despite turning faster lap time, and use of R compound tires. Adding the time and cost of bleeding and flushing brake fluid before and after track day… I would say this rotor pays for itself.

Dali deflator, (optional) It looks cool, and with its huge size (compared to OEM), it should help, but Dali site stating that “it won’t do anything unless you removed your splash shield behind rotor”… If you opt. for Aluminum ones, it’s cheap enough to worth a try.

Brake lines: (optional) this is one of my first mod as I figure my OEM lines on the car is kind of old after 15 years of road use. But seriously I don’t know if the SS line make any difference at all. It gave me more problem than OEM ones.
 
nsxtasy said:
Here is a list of many popular brake fluids, arranged by dry boiling point, including typical prices, as well as the DOT minimums:
Click to expand...

This is definitely one of the most informative posts I've seen on here in a long time. Thanks Ken.
 
I used to use ATE blue/bronze combination. But the blue tends to leave a blue stain in the master cylinder. This makes it difficult to gauge the fluid level. So I decided to go with Motul instead. It is only $3 more, has better specs and wont' cause staining.
 
nsxtasy said:
Here is a list of many popular brake fluids, arranged by dry boiling point, including typical prices, as well as the DOT minimums:
Click to expand...

Wet boiling point is also very important to pay attention to (this is why SRF is so expensive). So, I've re-ordered this list by wet boiling point. You'll want to find a fluid close to the bottom of both lists.

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($5.65/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($9.95/1L)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($26.75/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600 ($16.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($16.95/0.5L 16.9 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610 ($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- PROSPEED GS610 ($39.95/16 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($69.00/1L 0R 33.8 OZ)

Like Ken (nsxtasy) I use Motul 600 in the NSX. I bought ATE SuperBlue and TYP200 once, intending to use in the NSX, but after looking at the numbers I decided to stick with Motul 600 for the NSX. I ended up putting the SuperBlue/TYP200 in my Accords (they were running really old fluid).
 
Just an FYI, Motul is now retailing at about $15.50 locally compared to $12.50 a year ago and few years ago we were getting them for $8.00 from the same Yokohama Motorcycle store!!

For daily drivers or the non-NSXs in the stable, the Valvoline is great value especially wehn they go on sale.

YMMV.
 
latzke said:
Wet boiling point is also very important to pay attention to (this is why SRF is so expensive). So, I've re-ordered this list by wet boiling point. You'll want to find a fluid close to the bottom of both lists.

DRY:401F -- WET:284F --- DOT3 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:550F -- WET:284F --- FORD HEAVY DUTY DOT 3 ($4/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- WILWOOD 570 ($5.65/12 OZ)
DRY:570F -- WET:284F --- PERFORMANCE Friction Z rated ($6.27/16 OZ)
DRY:527F -- WET:302F --- AP RACING 551 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:446F -- WET:311F --- DOT4 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:527F -- WET:347F --- VALVOLINE SYNPOWER DOT3 & DOT4
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5 MINIMUM (SILICONE BASE)
DRY:500F -- WET:356F --- DOT5.1 MINIMUM (GLYCOL BASE)
DRY:536F -- WET:392F --- ATE SUPERBLUE/TYP200 ($9.95/1L)
DRY:601F -- WET:399F --- BREMBO LCF 600 PLUS ($26.75/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:410F --- AP RACING 600 ($16.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:626F -- WET:417F --- WILWOOD EXP 600 ($16.95/0.5L 16.9 OZ)
DRY:593F -- WET:420F --- MOTUL RBF600 ($12.95/0.5L OR 16.9 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- NEO SYNTHETICS SUPER DOT 610 ($11.95/12 OZ)
DRY:610F -- WET:421F --- PROSPEED GS610 ($39.95/16 OZ)
DRY:590F -- WET:518F --- CASTROL SRF ($69.00/1L 0R 33.8 OZ)

Like Ken (nsxtasy) I use Motul 600 in the NSX. I bought ATE SuperBlue and TYP200 once, intending to use in the NSX, but after looking at the numbers I decided to stick with Motul 600 for the NSX. I ended up putting the SuperBlue/TYP200 in my Accords (they were running really old fluid).
Click to expand...

This is why I use SRF.
 
Brake fluid absorbs moisture over time, which lowers the boiling point of the fluid.

The wet boiling point might be more important to those who have "garage queen" NSXs which don't accumulate much mileage. A fluid with a high wet boiling point will allow the car to sit for the full two year recommended time interval between brake fluid flushes without substantially diminishing its braking capability.

The dry boiling point is generally more important to those who track their NSXs and are more likely to flush their fluid much more frequently than once every two years, so the fluid doesn't have as much time to accumulate moisture. (I generally flush my fluid every spring, at the start of the track season, so any time I'm on the track, the car has always had the fluid flushed within the previous 6-8 months.)

Hrant said:
Just an FYI, Motul is now retailing at about $15.50 locally compared to $12.50 a year ago
Click to expand...
Current prices for Motul RBF 600:

Racer Parts Wholesale (GA) $12.99
Pegasus (WI) $13.29
Cobalt Friction (FL) $14.95
 
From stoptech website.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml

Carroll Smith's Notes on Brake Fluid

Brake fluid is possibly the single most neglected component of the automobile. Most high performance drivers check their tire pressures and change their engine oil at frequent intervals. Virtually no one (including me) ever changes the brake fluid in their street car - or even bleeds the brakes. WRONG!

.
.
.

Finally, Castrol SRF is a racing brake fluid that is in a class by itself with patented chemistry and is, in my opinion, the best racing brake fluid on the market today.


The fluid in the system absorbs water through the breathers, through the caliper piston seals and by magic. Not only does this reduce the boiling point, the entrained water leads to corrosion of both ferrous and Aluminum internal parts. Double Damn!! So buy your brake fluid in small containers and don’t save the leftovers.

But...

Ah ha, you say - but what about the much touted Silicone based brake fluids? They are non hygroscopic and should take care of the reduced boiling point and corrosion problems. True! That’s the good news. That is why they are specified by the U.S. Military. Unfortunately the silicone based fluids are compressible themselves so they produce a soft pedal all by themselves. For the person who doesn’t care about a spongy pedal or precise modulation silicone fluids may well be the answer - but not for anyone reading this. In fact, low compressibility is a desired characteristic in a high performance brake system – lower compressibility results in more linear force output for driver input and improved driver feedback.
 
nsxnut said:
Ah ha, you say - but what about the much touted Silicone based brake fluids? They are non hygroscopic and should take care of the reduced boiling point and corrosion problems. True! That’s the good news. That is why they are specified by the U.S. Military. Unfortunately the silicone based fluids are compressible themselves so they produce a soft pedal all by themselves. For the person who doesn’t care about a spongy pedal or precise modulation silicone fluids may well be the answer - but not for anyone reading this. In fact, low compressibility is a desired characteristic in a high performance brake system – lower compressibility results in more linear force output for driver input and improved driver feedback.
Click to expand...
One other downside of silicone-based brake fluid, or SBBF, is that it cannot be mixed with non-SBBF, so it has to be totally flushed.

None of the fluids listed above are silicone-based brake fluid.

The reason people used SBBF many years ago is that that fluid (DOT 5) was the only fluid commonly available with boiling points that met DOT 5 minimums. Nowadays, there are many non-SBBF (as listed) that meet DOT 5 minimum boiling temperatures. So you get the performance of high boiling points without the downsides of SBBF.

The DOT regulations include specifications for non-SBBF DOT 5.1 fluid, which include the same boiling point requirements as DOT 5, as well as some additional requirements. Some of the non-SBBF that meet DOT 5 boiling point requirements are marketed as DOT 5.1; others, including Motul RBF 600, are sold as DOT 4.

If you're interested in reading the brake fluid regulations, go to the Code of Federal Regulations website and click on TITLE 49, PART 571, Subpart B, Sec. 571.116, Standard No. 116; Motor vehicle brake fluids.
 
Brake fade from boiling fluid is not something I'd want to experience again. I ran my STi at Gingerman with stock fluid-- once. Going in to turn 10, the brake pedal goes all the way to the floor and little or no braking force. Yikes. It took about 20 minutes before the brakes would even work again. After that day, I promptly replaced with Motul 600.

My lesson learned-- don't skimp on the performance brake fluid, you will regret it.
 
nsx2tall said:
Brake fade from boiling fluid is not something I'd want to experience again. I ran my STi at Gingerman with stock fluid-- once. Going in to turn 10, the brake pedal goes all the way to the floor and little or no braking force. Yikes. It took about 20 minutes before the brakes would even work again. After that day, I promptly replaced with Motul 600.

My lesson learned-- don't skimp on the performance brake fluid, you will regret it.
Click to expand...


Agreed.

Overall the fluid is the least expensive part of the system and has a very important roll. If in drought bleed the breaks. If you fequent the track than bleed frequently.

I went to SRF when I replaced my calipers. You need to completely flush the system going to SRF. I have only heard good things about motul.


Later,
Don
 
Apologies if these are stupid questions :redface: , but:

1. How much fluid can be bled? Can you bleed, say, 90% of the fluid without doing a full flush?

2. With the speedbleeder tool I have heard about, what is involved and do you have to be mechanically inclined? Time, other tools, disposal, etc?

I ask this because I would switch to Motul permanently if it was easy to get most of the fluid out of the system regularly. With So Florida humidity, I don't want to have to do full brake flushes every few months, but I do want higher performance fluid for occasional track events.
 
Putting in the speedbleeders in a total non-event. I am mechanically challenged and it took all of 10 minutes to swap them out. Piece of cake!
 
Briank said:
I use http://www.valvoline.com/products/Valvoline Synpower High Performance Brake Fluid.pdf

It's relatively inexpensive and works just fine. I empty the master cylinder and fill with fresh and flush before each track event. I have gotten my brakes hot enough to cook the high temp paint in the calipers and have melted the plastic caps on the valve stems and have not had the brakes get spongy from boiling the fluid.
Click to expand...
Why do you think it is necessary to change the brake fluid before each track event?

I change my brake fluid once a year after each winter and that works fine for me.
 
Why do you think it is necessary to change the brake fluid before each track event?
I change my brake fluid once a year after each winter and that works fine for me.
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on how hard you push the car, track, choice of pads, brake fluid along with rotors and calipers. If you are using stock rotors and calipers and the pads are thin compared with a larger non stock system with new pad bedded pads and rotors then you are in two different areas of thermal transfer to the brake fluid.

One guy might need to flush and the other would not need to. For me I use Motul and flush before each event. It's cheap compared to wadding up a car.
 
Gerard van Santen said:
Why do you think it is necessary to change the brake fluid before each track event?

I change my brake fluid once a year after each winter and that works fine for me.
Click to expand...

I think this depends on where you are at on the performance curve.
I have a friend that runs a very fast vintage race car. He bleads his breaks before every race. Yes every race. He is on the extreame high end of the curve. I am no where near this level.

If you are going to an hpde event onece or twice a year and are still learning
and not really pushing things than the above would surly be overkill.

Also where do you live? in the summer months is it wet & humid?
If so I think I would bleed twice a year. If you are going to the track frequently and lap time are up there. I would up the frequency.

I bleed my breaks "3-4 times a year". I live in Ca usually dry.
I blead every time I change pads.

Hope this helps...
 

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