Originally posted by G-man:
They don't charge you for the Porsche emblem on the front, but there is an option to delete it for an extra charge.
He's kidding...
Acura NSX-T vs. Porsche 911 Turbo
- Thread starter G-man
- Start date
He's kidding...
NSX/MR2
Suspended
Well, gentlemen, I gotta go earn my money now. Everyone have a good day, take care, and don't start any shit without me.
ALLAN
Suspended
well nsxtasy, your right, the nsx is flawless and never breaks. but i guess that is shouldnt, considering it is majorly underpowered and therefore will never stress any of its internals.
check out may 2002, evo magazine. new nsx,corvette z06,bmw m coupe,tvr and porsche c4s. the nsx had much good press, some bad points were"interior impresses more for quality than style"" vague steering" they did say that they loved the engine howl between 6 and 7,000 rpm. they also said it feels better than it hp figures suggest. this i dont see with a 0-60 time of 5.5sec. moral of the story, yes you guessed it, they picked the PORSCHE!
check out may 2002, evo magazine. new nsx,corvette z06,bmw m coupe,tvr and porsche c4s. the nsx had much good press, some bad points were"interior impresses more for quality than style"" vague steering" they did say that they loved the engine howl between 6 and 7,000 rpm. they also said it feels better than it hp figures suggest. this i dont see with a 0-60 time of 5.5sec. moral of the story, yes you guessed it, they picked the PORSCHE!
I guess they had granny driving the NSX...
That is a terrible time for the NSX.. about a second slow.. guess they dont know how to drive on that side of the pond!
IMO, does the NSX beat a 2003 911.. with 315HP... no.. it doesn't. the NSX needs to catch up.
Would a 315HP NSX beat that porsche... I am certain it would.
ALLAN
Suspended
Just call honda and beg them to buy the W12 design from VW. I will buy it!!!
Sure. Your options are intercooler and/or water injection.
An intercooler is great for making reliable horsepower, even under prolonged boost, but finding space for one in the NSX engine bay is no small achievement.
For Air/Air, you need something that is going to be exposed to a steady supply of moving air, and with a glassed-in engine, the only real option would appear to be following Gerry's example and designing an engine cover with a roof scoop and going with a top-mount configuration. Mounting one in the bumper in front of the radiator (like front engined cars) is unadvisable as the pressure drop from all of that piping running to the back of the car would mean lag city.
Air/Water IC is another possibility, but requires finding a source for a good sized water reservoir (presumably in the front of the car) and means of pumping through all that piping.
A water injection system (like Aquamist) is probably your best bet as the pump and nozzle are small and one can easily find space in the engine bay for these. The reservoir tank can likewise be quite small and can be mounted remotely (like inside the cabin). These systems are cheap to run, extremely reliable (as long as you make sure not run the system dry), and very effective.
Lastly, there's cooling by way of injected gases (NOS, Propane, Menthanol) etc. but as these are generally not cost effective (refilling each of these costs substantially more than the tap water consumed by a water injection system) and some of them are combustible, your best bet would be to stick with a water injection system and/or a small air/air intercooler.
-- DavidV
www.boostedgroup.com
[This message has been edited by BoostedMR2 (edited 29 August 2002).]
Yeah, all that left-handed shifting makes them sloppy when they get a car with the steering wheel on the "proper" side. Of course, I haven’t seen that article so maybe they were testing a LHD drive car.
-- DavidV
www.boostedgroup.com
ALLAN
Suspended
hey boosted, how does that aquamist work? any experience with it? i was thinking of trying it on the lotus. the intercoolers they make for the lotus are tiny anyway, so i was thinking the aquamist might be the way to go. is it always on call, or do you have to turn it on, how does it work?
Allan that is a great idea for the nsx to take the w12 design! What a beautiful car! They set all kinds of endurance records with that car then scrapped it, probably because audi wants to concentrate on the baby lambo. That car was definetly on the list for the next exotic for me, im patiently waiting for the next nsx before i do anything.
Allan,
They offer three basic systems, the 1S, 2C and 2S. I am running the system 2S on my car.
Basically, each operates on the same principle -- water vapor is injected into the intercooler piping right before the throttle body, and the vapor cools the intake charge before it enters the combustion chamber. This allows one to make more power by running higher levels of boost, more timing advance and a leaner air/fuel ratio than would normally be possible without water injection. The water vapor has established side benefits including the removal of carbon in the cylinder head and acting as an octane booster by raising the ignition (flame) point of pump gas.
On my car, we were able to gain 40rwhp on the Dynojet running the same level of boost after installing the Aquamist and a 20% larger turbo impeller (still running the stock housing). Sport Compact Car covered this in the article published on my car in this past July's issue.
Most of this power gain we saw on the dyno was attributable to our being able to safely advance the ignition timing which we had previously pulled back on the Gen III motor (this motor was designed to run on the 95 octane pump fuel available in Japan and we were tuning on California 91 octane pee water gas). We were also able to gain power by greatly reducing how rich we were running the motor (we had been running overly rich to help prevent the onset of detonation).
In any event, 40rwhp on an otherwise stock 4 cylinder motor that already had a huge Apexi intercooler is very impressive, and what is especially cool about it is that I can wail on my car on the track all day long, no matter how hot it is outside, and never heat soak..
You know how the first few boosts on a turbo car are strong and crisp, but after you have been driving the car hard at full boost for a while, especially if it is hot out or you have been sitting in traffic, the power starts to fall off a bit as the intercooler heat soaks? Well, my car makes the same power whether its my first hard boost on a cool crisp morning, or my 5th hour of running full out in the middle of summer at the track. This is what it was like for me at Thunderhill the last time I was there on an 80+ degree day, and also in Alabama in 95+ degree weather at Taladega. We would rotate drivers through my car and run it session after session and the only time we had to pit for cool down was when the brakes started to go. Numerous other turbo cars were pitting early with heat soak issues, but I was monitoring intake and coolant temps in real time on my Power FC display and they never went above normal, so we just kept right on going.
I am very familiar with the intercooler set-up on both the 4 and 8 cylinder Lotus Esprits as I have spent many long afternoons staring at Esprit engine bays at the Lotus/VW dealership that services my wife's car. I have always thought that the Esprit would be an ideal candidate for an Aquamist, and several Esprit owners run these systems in England and here in the U.S.
The basic system (1S) will run you about $500 and comes on whenever you are on boost. You adjust the volume of water being injected through the size of the nozzle you are using (the kit comes with multiple sizes).
The system 2C adds the ability to synch the Aquamist up with a stand-alone computer (Haltech, Motec, Autronic, etc.)
The one I am running in my car (2S) is their top of the line unit and is very trick as it includes an MF2 microprocessor that allows the user to map the water injection in 3D for boost, rpm and volume of water.
While there are other, cheaper water injection systems on the market, including some very rudimentary DIY kits based on windshield squirters and such, it really pays to go with top-shelf product (not that you would skimp) since proper water atomization is critical to get the full benefit of water injection and to avoid washing the cylinder walls with water. Merely spraying water is not enough, it needs to be introduced as a vapor, and only a very powerful pump and purpose designed brass nozzles like the ones supplied by Aquamist are capable of properly atomizing the water delivery. The basic technology has been around since the 1950's (Corky Bell has been very critical in his comments of these early systems), but it wasn't until recently that pump, nozzle and microprocessor technology had made water injection a viable and reliable means of tuning for power and reliability. In any event, there's a reason that 99.9% of the WRC rally teams use Aquamist products.
To learn more, there’s a great FAQ on ERL’s website: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
Anyway, I'm starting to sound like a salesman, and I could really talk your ear off on the subject, but if you shoot me an email (and promise not to be a jerk to me on this message board!) I will be happy to discuss the system with you in more detail. You can also call me on the phone number listed on the Boosted Group website. ERL/Aquamist is one of my company's clients, and I am very familiar with their product line and technology.
Hope this helps.
-- DavidV
www.boostedgroup.com
BoostedMr2,
Next time someone asks you for information, would you try and be a little more thorough? J.K.
Great Post!
[This message has been edited by Carguy! (edited 29 August 2002).]
Next time someone asks you for information, would you try and be a little more thorough? J.K.
Great Post!
[This message has been edited by Carguy! (edited 29 August 2002).]
No, I am not kidding, it is an option along with deleting the model designation on the rear or deleting the sunroof. You can delete almost anything on a Porsche for a price.
I don't know where you guys get your 0-60 times for the NSX... maybe FANTASY LAND, but I have never seen any test where a stock NSX ran 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and 5.5 seconds as quotes seems more typical of about a dozen tests I have seen so far.
As to the 315hp NSX vs. 315hp Porsche comments, that is just stupid. There are about a dozen factors that effect performance more than just hp alone. The weight of the Porsche will ALWAYS be more than the NSX. The NSX is also VERY efficient at transfering power to the ground with very little power loss in the process. So, unless the Porsche is a C4S or Turbo with All-wheel-drive it is unlikely the Porsche will put power out as efficiently as the NSX. Tire brand and hookup is another factor. The NSX stock tires are muck grippier than anything I have ever had OEM on any of the 20 other cars I have owned in the last 8 years. Also drag coeficient, gear ratios, and a half dozen other major factors are all at odds in the comparison too.
I think we are all well aware that a 420hp 996TT will easily overcome a 290hp NSX, but again, that was never the comparison. And just to be fair, it was never my intention to make this thread about how good the Porsche is over the NSX, only how good the next generation NSX will need to be in order to compete with the current crop of exotic hardware out there. I also don't think that either Allan or I need to waste out time blowing out you guys on-line in a war of words in order to prove anything, I don't think that was the major idea here.
I respect that Allan, Bill92NSX and myself have all had other cars, including Porsche and also the NSXs and are offering a comparison for the sake of discussion. I find it interesting how brainwashed and fanatical the NSX crew has become, as bad as and Corvette or Ferrari site these days. Nobody started out attacking anyone here, except maybe in jest... so why not open your minds to the possibility that the NSX after 12 years is not the end all and be all of the automotive community it might have once been.
I too am using the Aquamist on my NSXTT. I have been using it for 1 1/2 years and love it!
Boosted,
Have you tried a 50/50 mix of water and methonal yet? Thats where I REALLY got results!
To all interested in the Aquamist, make sure your car is perfectly tuned PRIOR to using the setup. A lot of tuners use this system as means of a "bandaide" to cover up improper A/F ratios and poor tuning.
Boosted,
Have you tried a 50/50 mix of water and methonal yet? Thats where I REALLY got results!
To all interested in the Aquamist, make sure your car is perfectly tuned PRIOR to using the setup. A lot of tuners use this system as means of a "bandaide" to cover up improper A/F ratios and poor tuning.
Well, I guess a third opinion would be somewhat helpful in the BoostedMr2 versus Bonez alleged run. I was behind then when they both lined up and they both gunned it no doubt. By the way the Mr2 "hang" with the NSX, and actually was ahead of the NSX, it seemed BoneZ didn't use his nitrous. I would like to add that I was behind them when they were racing and didn't see the NSX's brake lights light up until AFTER the Mr2 was already ahead of it. So either the parking brake was used (not likely), a switch was turned on where the tail lights do not illuminate upon braking (also not likely), or the NSX wasn't braking.
I'm also trying to figure out what the big fuss is about. The NSX without nitrous has only low 300s rwhp while BoostedMR2 is at 291rwhp and weights much less. Not to mention the NSX had a passenger and the Mr2 could have been in a better power band at the time. In any case, I know most of you guys know that the NSX is far from "unbeatable" in a straight line. If there are any doubts, Thunderhill is a good place to settle the friendly debate. That way Bonez won't be afraid of getting a speeding ticket, and when the green flag drops, the BS stops.
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93' MR2 Twin VATN Turbo
[email protected]
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93' MR2 Twin VATN Turbo
[email protected]
It is true that water injection should not be used as a bandaide, but merely as a mean of pushing the envelope on an already efficient setup. I would, however, disagree that the car should be tuned prior to using the setup. I would tune the car WITH the water injection instead of merely BEFORE. I know a few people who have blown their motors by tuning their cars and then adding alcohol injection. You can actually blow your motor by running too rich. There isn't much information on this, because it rarely happens, but it is possible.
Boosted Mr2 has large injectors and a fuel rail from Phoenix Power already. I'm pretty sure aftre 100 dyno runs tuned with a stand alone, his A/F is just about where he wants them to be. He isn't really running on the lean side, so Methanol won't really help since it acts like a fuel. What he could do with is a higher octane rating, especially since pump gas in CA is like "pee water." All octane ratings are good for is how resistant the fuel is to detonation. While water isn't a fuel by itself, when we apply heat energy to it, its molecules begin to expand and a great deal of heat is absorbed. When the water changes from the liquid to gas state, large amount of heat energy is consumed in sustaining the process. The latent heat of evaporation is 2256kJ/kg, or approximately six times more than gasoline. Hence, when you add water injection, you are cooling the intake charge substantially, which gives you an effective higher octane. 100% Water has a higher efficency of the fluid/gas's ability to absorb heat than water with methanol.
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93' MR2 Twin VATN Turbo
[email protected]
The Esprit TT is too purpose build for everyday driving.
At 5' 6", the cabin feel quite roomy to me. However, I have to move the seat forward enough to obtain full pedal range. (Blame it on my short legs.) So positioned, I need to fully tilt the seat back until it press against the firewall in order to obtain meaningful arm extension. (No my arm isn't that long.) Can't imagine anyone over 5' 10" in this car. Ingress and egress takes some getting used to. The doors don't swing wide enough for easy access and the sill is a mile wide. (Short guys are dimensionally challenged.) One needs to be quite agile and flexible to drive this car. With practice, it became a second nature. (Okay, maybe I am a chimpanzee!)
Relatively speaking, the Esprit TT isn't particularly good in 0-60 sprints or quarter mile runs. It isn't build for that. Drop in a Race ECM and one is likely to implode the tranny or drop a half shaft if abused. If NSX is supremely easy to drive fast, the Esprit is extremely hard. One has to know the vehicle and willing to live with the Esprit's short comings. Done properly, it can be one furiously quick machine. However, the key word here is finesse.
Stepping off the Esprit TT, the NSX feel like it takes forever to get up to speed (Stock vs. Stock). Subjectively, the difference in acceleration between the Esprit in the boost range and NSX in the power band isn't exactly night and day. However, there is still a huge surge difference between the two. Ironically, the Esprit is very deceptive and one doesn't feel the motor working very hard at speed. Where as, the NSX feels like it is laboring away just to keep up. The biggest surprise is that even with 70 to 75hp short, the NSX does seem more tail happy. Even with Deli Race bar, custom Ground-Control, and aftermarket wheel/tire, I can easily step the NSX out but with ample warning. On the other hand, the Esprit simply feels planted. Given the pedigree of the Esprit, I wouldn't bet against it on a circuit track.
Other nits I have to pick on the Esprit is the seat. Chimpanzee like myself slide all over the flat bucket. Try toe and heal down shift during a hard corner and I can never modulate the pedals smoothly. The NSX one-size-fits-all seat is light years ahead. Supportive yet not too confining especially for me. Yes I'm short but I can see a panoramic view out of the NSX. In the Esprit, the only excuse it has is what's behind isn't very important. That's with the exception of State Troopers. Driving the Esprit in 100 degrees summer is exactly rewarding. While the aircon blows cold, one can never direct the vent where its most needed. And don't even think about the large glass roof.
NetViper. Do take these into consideration. Make sure you test drive the Esprit even before you remotely consider one. I'm sure there are Lotus dealers near you. However, I you happens to fly by Vegas, drop me a line. I'll let you play the part of the Chimp.
Regards
Paul Siu
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by NetViper:
posted 27 August 2002 19:34
All this talk about the lotus V8 TT is making me want to check one out. Does anyone own one that will be close the NSXPO?
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At 5' 6", the cabin feel quite roomy to me. However, I have to move the seat forward enough to obtain full pedal range. (Blame it on my short legs.) So positioned, I need to fully tilt the seat back until it press against the firewall in order to obtain meaningful arm extension. (No my arm isn't that long.) Can't imagine anyone over 5' 10" in this car. Ingress and egress takes some getting used to. The doors don't swing wide enough for easy access and the sill is a mile wide. (Short guys are dimensionally challenged.) One needs to be quite agile and flexible to drive this car. With practice, it became a second nature. (Okay, maybe I am a chimpanzee!)
Relatively speaking, the Esprit TT isn't particularly good in 0-60 sprints or quarter mile runs. It isn't build for that. Drop in a Race ECM and one is likely to implode the tranny or drop a half shaft if abused. If NSX is supremely easy to drive fast, the Esprit is extremely hard. One has to know the vehicle and willing to live with the Esprit's short comings. Done properly, it can be one furiously quick machine. However, the key word here is finesse.
Stepping off the Esprit TT, the NSX feel like it takes forever to get up to speed (Stock vs. Stock). Subjectively, the difference in acceleration between the Esprit in the boost range and NSX in the power band isn't exactly night and day. However, there is still a huge surge difference between the two. Ironically, the Esprit is very deceptive and one doesn't feel the motor working very hard at speed. Where as, the NSX feels like it is laboring away just to keep up. The biggest surprise is that even with 70 to 75hp short, the NSX does seem more tail happy. Even with Deli Race bar, custom Ground-Control, and aftermarket wheel/tire, I can easily step the NSX out but with ample warning. On the other hand, the Esprit simply feels planted. Given the pedigree of the Esprit, I wouldn't bet against it on a circuit track.
Other nits I have to pick on the Esprit is the seat. Chimpanzee like myself slide all over the flat bucket. Try toe and heal down shift during a hard corner and I can never modulate the pedals smoothly. The NSX one-size-fits-all seat is light years ahead. Supportive yet not too confining especially for me. Yes I'm short but I can see a panoramic view out of the NSX. In the Esprit, the only excuse it has is what's behind isn't very important. That's with the exception of State Troopers. Driving the Esprit in 100 degrees summer is exactly rewarding. While the aircon blows cold, one can never direct the vent where its most needed. And don't even think about the large glass roof.
NetViper. Do take these into consideration. Make sure you test drive the Esprit even before you remotely consider one. I'm sure there are Lotus dealers near you. However, I you happens to fly by Vegas, drop me a line. I'll let you play the part of the Chimp.
Regards
Paul Siu
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by NetViper:
posted 27 August 2002 19:34
All this talk about the lotus V8 TT is making me want to check one out. Does anyone own one that will be close the NSXPO?
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Why don't you two just take it out to the drillfield oval and settle it once and for all? HAHA!!
I noticed the "delete model designation" and the "delete sunroof" options in the options list for the 911TT. I did not notice a "delete hood emblem" option. If that's available, fine - but they're not including it in the options list.
My comment "he's kidding" was primarily directed towards your statement that Porsche charges extra for the delete options, which you apparently are seriously claiming. There is no charge for either the "delete model designation" option or the "delete sunroof" option.
I find it interesting that you still make these wild, untrue claims about how people here are so brainwashed, when nobody - NOBODY - ever made even the slightest suggestion that the NSX was a better car than the 911 Turbo. Most everyone here accepts the 911 Turbo for its formidable capabilities - not that the NSX isn't better in a few areas, but that overall the 911 Turbo is a lot more car than the NSX. Yet you're still telling lies, claiming that NSX owners need to be more open-minded, claiming that NSX owners think that the NSX is the only car around end-all be-all blah blah blah. You're trying to diss NSX owners by claiming something that never happened. Perhaps you're the one who needs to be more open-minded, and realize that NSX owners here are a lot more mature than you give us credit for. I doubt that the other forums you mention would be as ready and willing to accept the superiority of another marque/model as the NSX owners here have done.
[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 30 August 2002).]
In all fairness, and speaking solely as a non-NSX owner, I did indicate my preference for the NSX over the 996T earlier in this thread.
I just think that as much of a technical tour de force as the 996T is, and despite the fact that it excels in nearly all performance categories, I can't get past its looks (the 993 was gorgeous, IMO) or its heft (200 pounds more than an '02 NSX and over 400 pounds more than a 964 series C2 911).
I probably would pay extra to have the emblem removed just to try to shave some weight off the car.
-- DavidV
www.boostedgroup.com
[This message has been edited by BoostedMR2 (edited 30 August 2002).]
I stand corrected.
Ken, I stand corrected. I was unaware that it was a $0 No cost option. I have this plust the delete hood badge option in my current 2002-2003 options list that I got from the dealer when I bought my car last week. It may not have been an option in 2001 or early 2002.
I am impressed by your global access to information. Your detailed and seemingly unending access to info always helpful to the group.
As far as the brainwashing comment, I was only kidding. Hell, I owned an NSX for 14 months myself and would not have bought one if I didn't think they were a great car and that this group was a great bunch of people. The most fun I have ever had at a track event was NSXPO 2000 at Road Atlanta and enjoyed meeting Ken and all the others that make our interactions here so much fun. So, don't take things to heart.
NSX/MR2
Suspended
Relax, G-man, have fun, enjoy this site and your vehicle, no more arguing, just fairness. Most of us have other vehicles too beside the NSX, and I appreciate all their differences, some just cost me more to play with than others. Come to think of it, they are just like women. Those great in bed usually equal high maintenance and more expensive taste, and then there are the one that just lie there in bed and don't care what you do to her, usually those are the kind that you can get by with a phone call or a card. So It is up to you of what you want, a car is just like a woman.
