Acura NSX-T vs. Porsche 911 Turbo

Hi BoostedMR2, this aquamist thing, where can I see such product and info. I am interested in rerouting it to mist water onto the front of my radiator on my race car. I've been plagued with overheating problem on my race car, and this might be a solution to increase the cooling capacity of the radiator.
 
hey boosted, thanks for the info. didnt mean to make you write a 5 page report! the mods that i plan for the esprit are as follows, the race ecu, blow off valves, and the re-flowed turbos that generate 40% more airflow. i was considering this aquamist as an alternative to the intercoolers since the coolers are soo tiny any way, that i believe after a few runs they too would be worthless. i like the aquamist that would run concurrently with the bosst at all times, but how much water will it actually use just driving around normally? i also heard it is good to use windshield washing fluid instead of water?

esprit1, i am just about 6 foot tall(depends if i slouch or not) and i fit fine in the esprit. i do agree with you on the support of the esprit seats, although comfortable, they do need much more support, i take turns and the car stays planted and i feel im about to fly out the window. as i said before read up guys who say i never give credit to the nsx, the seating and gearshifter in the nsx are superior to the lotus. but as you say, with the the proper fineese, the esprit will shatter the nsx in a performance compro.

hey deqle, why are you always relating woman to money? are we missing something? you visiting the chicken ranch too often?
you also forgot one classification of female species, the young, good looking woman who works to support her no good, sit at home, do nothing all day but play on nsxprime, fat good for nothing husand! thats the one i love! lol
 
Originally posted by Andrie Hartanto:
Hi BoostedMR2, this aquamist thing, where can I see such product and info. I am interested in rerouting it to mist water onto the front of my radiator on my race car. I've been plagued with overheating problem on my race car, and this might be a solution to increase the cooling capacity of the radiator.

Hi Andrie,

It seems to me that you would be better off using one of the cheaper DIY kits for this application since the 150 psi pump, trick nozzles and electronic controller are overkill to spray down a radiator.

However, I have an even better solution for you: Evans NPG+ non-aqueous coolant, a low pressure radiator cap and a low temp. thermostat. I am running this set-up in my car and am very impressed with what I have seen thus far both on the dyno and on the track. I am able to monitor my coolant temps in real-time and the difference has been night and day.

Anyway, I could write another 5 pages on this subject, but perhaps rather than taking up a bunch of bandwidth here, you could shoot me an email or give me a call on the number listed at the Boosted Group site and I could fill you in on why I believe this might be the right solution for your cooling system woes.

-- DavidV
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www.boostedgroup.com
 
Lol, no actually sometime the chicken ranch is at my place. As for cars and women, I treated them both quite the same, hence my comparison, but pretty soon, I think I am gonna need one that work for me, too, so I can sit around, get fat, and play with NSXprime. And you know why i do the comparison, why not, this thread had deviate from the main discussion in the get go, and I was so serious before too, and I need a little bit laugh, and where in the world can I find a better conversationalists than you, Bill, NSXTASY, Viper, G-man, etc. Enjoy your day, brother.
 
Since we are on this discussion. Seriously, I sincerely glad you found yours, Allan, that's where you got the edge on me, but I am gonna equal the playing field soon
 
Originally posted by ALLAN:
hey boosted, thanks for the info.

That's what I'm here for. Now aren't you guys glad you didn't chase me away in that first thread?
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i like the aquamist that would run concurrently with the boost at all times, but how much water will it actually use just driving around normally? i also heard it is good to use windshield washing fluid instead of water?.

There are essentially two answers to the water consumption question.

First, a water injection system that properly atomizes the water will consume far less water than one that merely sprays it. It takes very little water to provide true water vapor, so an Aquamist will use considerably less than a system that fails to fully vaporize the water.

Second, if you step-up to the system 2S (the 3D mappable one I am running) you will use even less water than the 1S. For those of you who are not too keen on spending nearly $1k on a water injection system, the $500 1S can later be upgraded to a 2S by just ordering the additional components needed.

In any event, since the 2S allows the water to be mapped for rpm, boost and volume, you can fine tune the water delivery so that it is fully optimized for the gear you are in, the rpm you are running, and how much boost you have dialed in at that rpm. The net effect is you are only introducing water on an "as needed" basis and ultimately go through less of it than you would with the system 1S.

OK, so in terms of practical application I am running a massive 4 gallon Summit Racing fuel cell as my water tank (you can see pictures of my set-up in the gallery section of ERL's website). I have run the car all day long at Thunderhill, driven aggressively on the street for 3 weeks after that, and when I checked the water supply, found that I not used more than 1/3 of the tank. Most people make a habit of checking the water level every time they fill up with gas, but with a large enough reservoir, you can check the water level every few fill-ups.

As far as using windshield washer fluid is concerned, this is a good idea for anyone living in a climate where there is a risk of the water freezing. Since I live in California, this is not much of a concern to me and I run pure water, but if the temps get very cold overnight in Scottsdale, there is nothing wrong with running some windshield washer fluid (essentially, water, ethanol and coloring) instead of pure water.

Also, Pouya's reply was correct about the reasons to run larger concentrations of methanol or alcohol with the water. Methanol and alcohol are both fuels, and for an application in which a motor would otherwise tend to run leaner than it should, mixing greater amounts of methanol or alcohol can help richen up the air/fuel ratio.

If you haven't already checked out the FAQ at ERL's site, they discuss both the water consumption and water/ethanol mix questions in more detail: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/rescr/rescr.html

-- DavidV
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www.boostedgroup.com
 
Originally posted by ALLAN:
boosted, what is the evans coolant? can you run it without their thermostat? maybe ill use that in my cars out here also.

Evans coolant, which goes by the name "NPG+" is a recent reformulation of the "NPG" coolant that has been used by WRC rally cars for some time now. The rally teams began using it some years ago because NPG allowed them to run non-pressurized cooling systems so that if a hose burst between stages due to a rock puncture or similar road hazard, it could be duct taped up and the stage could be completed. What they later learned was that the NPG coolant also was more thermally stable than the standard stuff and did a better job of removing heat from the cylinder head. As a result, they were able to save weight by running smaller radiators (or, making more room for bigger intercoolers) and still achieve better cooling.

NPG stands for Non-aqueous Propylene Glycol and is a slightly more viscous coolant with different thermal properties than conventional ethylene glycol and water based coolants.

The benefits of running NPG+ is that it has a much higher boiling point than conventional coolant 50/50 mix, or even the pure water and Redline Water Wetter mixed used by a lot of racers. Whereas the boiling point of regular coolant is 250 degrees Fahrenheit, NPG+ won't boil until 369 degrees Fahrenheit.

It is thermally very stable. What this means is that while it takes longer for your car to warm up when you first start it -- especially when using a low temp. thermostat as is recommended -- the temperature fluctuations are dramatically reduced. I can drive my car as hard as I want, and never see the kinds of spikes in coolant temps. that I did running fresh Toyota coolant 50/50 mix and Water Wetter.

NPG+ also tends to resist cavitating in the water pump as well, thereby reducing the onset of bubbling coolant and hot spot related detonation.

Because it does not contain water, it will not corrode the pump, radiator and other cooling components like water based coolants will and can be left in the system indefinitely (never needs to be changed).

Whereas NPG used to require running a special water pump and other hardware from Evans, the reformulated NPG+ can be run with a standard pump, radiator and pressure cap and requires only a change to colder thermostat.

Oh, it is also non-toxic and environmentally friendly, for those that care.

That's the good news. The bad news is that it is incompatible with water or conventional coolant. This means install is a bitch, to say the least. It took us over 6 hours to perform 4 complete coolant flushes with Sierra coolant (a compatible coolant used for flushing) to eliminate the every last trace of conventional coolant and water from the system. You have to drain and flush the engine block, heater core, radiator, overflow tank, coolant passages and every other nook and cranny in the entire car before this stuff can go in.

It is also expensive, at $25 a gallon (and remember -- you're not mixing it with water so its $25 a gallon until your whole system is filled to capacity). However, once its in, you never have to change it.

It also will cause your car to run hotter than normal. I know this sounds bad and completely counter-intuitive, but the coolant is actually doing a better job of removing heat from the cylinder head even though the temp gauge shows that you are running hotter than normal.

It requires a low temp thermostat to bring the temps down to closer to stock range, and like I said above, will build up heat a little slower than conventional coolant so it takes a while longer than normal before you can start driving your car hard.

If you're running a high pressure radiator cap, you will need to ditch it and go back to stock. NPG+ prefers zero to stock (low) pressure and expands and contract more dramatically under pressure than conventional coolant.

I have personally been very happy with the consistency of temps I am seeing with this coolant and with the peace of mind I get from knowing that I am putting less wear on my cooling system by running less pressure than I had been, and that this stuff will not boil and cause me to lose an engine until well above the range at which regular coolant would have already been past its operating parameters.

I think that pretty much covers it. Let me know if there's anything else you would like me to add.

Also, there's a lot more useful info here: http://www.evanscooling.com/

-- DavidV
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www.boostedgroup.com


[This message has been edited by BoostedMR2 (edited 30 August 2002).]
 
Originally posted by Pouya:
It is true that water injection should not be used as a bandaide, but merely as a mean of pushing the envelope on an already efficient setup. I would, however, disagree that the car should be tuned prior to using the setup. I would tune the car WITH the water injection instead of merely BEFORE. I know a few people who have blown their motors by tuning their cars and then adding alcohol injection. You can actually blow your motor by running too rich. There isn't much information on this, because it rarely happens, but it is possible.

Gotta disagree with you on this one...

It is imparative to assure that the car is properly tuned PRIOR to the use of any water injection. You must keep in mind that the use of this is not based on the means of HP gains... this is just an added plus of the results.

The last thing you ever want when on the track or during heavy duty driving is the Aquamist falling, leaving you with detonation (detonation that the water injection got rid of) that will be fatal to your engine. I have seen these units fail on other cars (kink in the lines leaving the motor of the pump burned up due to no flow, the plastic piping popping off from the nozzle from pressure, or a simple blown fuse) and the drivers have NO idea until they here the detonation... sometimes too late
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This system is GREAT and I do love it but the fact does remain that this IS a bandaide to cover for poor octain and a quick fix for less than excellent tuning.

As for the methonal leaving the A/F rich. Not really. The amount of methonal is not even close to being a factor in running rich. Keep in mind that the methonal is not being used for its fuel factor. It is being used for its rapid evaporation and cooling properties.

I also cant say that I have heard of a motor blowing up do to a rich A/F. You would have to be talking MEGA Rich, and even at that the most that might happen is the possibility of floating your rings.

[This message has been edited by TheSwishh (edited 31 August 2002).]
 
Originally posted by TheSwishh:
This system is GREAT and I do love it but the fact does remain that this IS a bandaide to cover for poor octain and a quick fix for less than excellent tuning.

I'm not sure I agree with this assessment. With the latest Aquamist systems (2S and 2C) the water injection becomes an integral part of the dyno tuning process. When we tuned my car, we were mapping out the water flow in conjunction with building the maps for fuel, boost and ignition timing.

We weren't so much trying to put a "band-aid" on a problem as we were trying to extract maximum performance and reliability out of my existing set-up. I know of many people who run the Aquamist strictly as a safety device and do not tune their cars for any additional power. However, it seems to me that the system is reliable enough that I would rather have my 40 extra horsepower and then rely on a J&S Safeguard or Standalone to jump in and cut boost and ignition timing should the Aquamist fail.

There are numerous systems on a car that can fail. I have seen and heard of many more motors failing due to intercooler hoses popping off than I have Aquamist systems failing, and yet no one would suggest that it is inappropriate to tune for additional power by relying on an intercooler. This is just one example. Of all the various systems on a car that can fail from the fuel system, to cooling to ignition, the Aquamist is no more risk prone than any other the other technology we rely on when seeking to enhance the performance of our cars.

In fact, the system 2S I am running in my car even has a status check light that will illuminate should the pump ever fail.

With a proper installation, problems like a kink in the line or line popping off are entirely avoidable. Likewise, I recommend running a fuel cell for the water tank (even a small one) as the internal baffles help prevent the water from sloshing around even under high G loads. Further, these tanks have the fitting pick-ups mounted in such a way as to be able to extract water even when the system is run nearly dry (something that should never happen with an appropriately sized tank).

As for the methonal leaving the A/F rich. Not really. ... I also cant say that I have heard of a motor blowing up do to a rich A/F.

Well, there is one such case to which I think Pouya was referring in the MR2 community by someone who had been running a non-Aquamist kit to inject pure alcohol. The details on his set-up are here:
http://pjs.iwarp.com/mr2modproject/mod/alcohol/alcohol.htm

-- DavidV
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www.boostedgroup.com


[This message has been edited by BoostedMR2 (edited 31 August 2002).]
 
Originally posted by BoostedMR2:
Well, there is one such case to which I think Pouya was referring in the MR2 community by someone who had been running a non-Aquamist kit to inject pure alcohol.

Geez, no wonder it wasnt all that good... it is VERY bad to run PURE alcohol. Especially denatured. There are far too many contaminates in denatured alcohol. The burn propensity is not very efficiant also. Same goes for rubbing alcohol as I have seen used.

If the 2S does have a warning light and all of the goodies you say, then I would have to agree that it is reliable. I have the 1S and it is very basic. No warning lights and I have blown 2 fuses in the past never knowing that the unit was not working. I always check all fuses and connections every time I do an oil change (2K miles) and this is how I found out.

I have seen and heard of many more motors failing due to intercooler hoses popping off than I have Aquamist systems failing, and yet no one would suggest that it is inappropriate to tune for additional power by relying on an intercooler.

Do you really think this is a fair statement? In all of the work I have done, I have only seen three other cars that have been using Aquamist (or other water injections devices). You have to admit that not too many people use this method.

[This message has been edited by TheSwishh (edited 31 August 2002).]
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
He's kidding...

Ken, just to you don't feel but too superior... I was able to find the option code for removal of the Porsche Crest from the hood and what do you know, there is a charge for it!
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Ha! So there.

Z48 Hood w/o Porsche Crest, Front
Carrera Base, 4 & Turbo
(N/A Carrera Targa & 4S or GT2)
$122.00 (list) $145.00 (retail)

------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
2002 Porsche 911 Turbo
 
Originally posted by ALLAN:
britanim.gif


STOP STARING AT MY GIRLFRIEND!!!

Yeah, when I was in Las Vegas last time I called 1-800-4A-WHORE and she is the one that showed up too.
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And I thougth I was impressed by all your cars! Dag-gone man. Why would you ever leave the house! Haha!

------------------
Gordon G. Miller, III
2002 Porsche 911 Turbo
 
Originally posted by TheSwishh:
Do you really think this is a fair statement? In all of the work I have done, I have only seen three other cars that have been using Aquamist (or other water injections devices). You have to admit that not too many people use this method.

Well, while the statement is entirely true, I was being a bit facetious in comparing the Aquamist failure rate to the intercooler hose failure rate. I would guess neither of our experiences would qualify as a proper statistical sample.

I was trying to make the point that multiple systems can and do fail on performance cars -- particularly when they are being driven hard. It's Murphy's law really: anything that can go wrong probably will (and usually at the most inopportune time).

In my opinion and experience, a properly installed and tuned Aquamist is no more of a liability than a custom turbo kit, stand-alone ECU, auxiliary oil cooler, or any other performance tuning part (or factory component for that matter) that allows our cars to perform the way they do.

I recently had a fitting fail on a very expensive and well-designed auxiliary oil cooler, causing my motor to suddenly lose nearly 2 quarts of oil. I caught the problem in time, and no damage was done, but the repercussions could have been quite serious.

While I would warn people to use care in positioning the support brackets when installing an auxiliary oil cooler, and to be diligent in periodically checking for leaks, I would not hesitate to recommend that others rely on auxiliary oil coolers just as I have.

I took your comments regarding you experiences with blown fuses in a similar spirit. While you are not saying that the Aquamist isn't a valuable tuning tool, you are cautioning people to make sure that they keep close tabs on the system and install/tune/monitor it carefully due to the serious repercussions that are likely to occur if the system were to fail on a car that had been tuned to rely on it.

This is sound advice, and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

That being said, plenty of very prominent and well-funded race teams rely on Aquamist products as part of their tuning regimen as do weekend enthusiasts with more limited budgets. The failure rate on these products is negligible and they would not be used on virtually every WRC rally team's car (in fact, all of them except for Peugeot) if these products were not reliable and durable.

FWIW, I believe that the pump status warning light is a terrific feature of the System 2S in allowing instant warning to the driver to back off should the light illuminate.

Since you are running the system 1S, you might look at upgrading your set-up to include the pump status light, or, perhaps consider installing the new flow and pressure sensor display that has recently been added to the Aquamist line-up:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/preview.html

-- DavidV
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www.boostedgroup.com


[This message has been edited by BoostedMR2 (edited 02 September 2002).]
 
Originally posted by BoostedMR2:
Since you are running the system 1S, you might look at upgrading your set-up to include the pump status light, or, perhaps consider installing the new flow and pressure sensor display that has recently been added to the Aquamist line-up:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/preview.html

Sounds like a good idead! I didnt even know they made this setup as advanced as it is. Do you happen to know what the cost to upgrade is?

Thanks for the info David
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Originally posted by G-man:
Ken, just to you don't feel but too superior... I was able to find the option code for removal of the Porsche Crest from the hood and what do you know, there is a charge for it!
smile.gif
Ha! So there.

Yup, you're right.

I turned up the other two zero-cost options in the Edmunds price list by doing a find on the word "delete"; this option doesn't use the word "delete" in the name. I guess they didn't want to make it too obvious that they are charging more to give customers less.
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the original canto design for the lambo was awesome.

the jalpa on the davescoolstuff site was my friends old car.

were does britney look 40? i saw her concert on hbo yesterday again, yummmmmmm.
britanim2.gif
 
Much Better!

The closer look at Britney looks much more like her. I saw that concert too... MMM MMM good!

If you can find me one like that of Penelope Cruz I will forever be your pal
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On a side note I am very curious... I find it VERY annoying how Porsche lists just about everything as an option. I mean, Cmon now, all the way down to the hood emblem??? So here is my question... How does Kelly Blue Book come up with a price on these cars? KBB only looks at the usual options like leather, sunroof, power locks, etc. right?
 
Maybe those options don't really affect the price of the car when used.

Or maybe kbb isn't totally accurate.

Originally posted by huckster:
interesting that the hood emblem can be deleted for free?

No, it's not for free. It adds $145 to the retail price, as G-man pointed out above.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 03 September 2002).]
 
Originally posted by TheSwishh:
On a side note I am very curious... I find it VERY annoying how Porsche lists just about everything as an option. I mean, Cmon now, all the way down to the hood emblem???

Well, there are something like 4,000 different options available, including painting the car your own color, painting the wheels to match, interior your own color and almost any imaginable combination of wood, leather, carbon or aluminum for interior trim with at least 3 trim levels for each material (Small, Large, and Full). I have seen an $80K Carrera Coupe add another $50K in options. Not unheard of to have some 911 Convertibles run over $150K in just finishes and colors.

I know that even the basic standard options, not TECHQUIPMENT options or EXCLUSIVE OPTIONS that there are more options that KBB and others can possibly use. Oh well.
 
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