Acura NSX Details Emerge - in Today's Autoweek

[JD Cross]

I think an argument can be made that all modern cars drive themselves as they're automatics. Paddle shifting is no true manual.

I get confused on manual and automatic terminology these days

I understand the DCT is a manual transmission with dual clutches and instead of the stick shift it has solenoids activated by paddles to shift the gears and work the clutches.
This to me is a manual transmission that offers faster shifting than a foot activated clutch and hand operated stick shift.

Other cars have automatic transmissions with a torque converter and offer paddles to manually change the gear setting.
These cars will also shift themselves if the paddles aren't used.
To me this is a true automatic transmission with the inherent slip of the torque converter.

Do I have this right?

Also does anyone know if the DCT computer will shift itself or does it need to be always shifted by paddle?

 

[N Spec]

I get confused on manual and automatic terminology these days

I understand the DCT is a manual transmission with dual clutches and instead of the stick shift it has solenoids activated by paddles to shift the gears and work the clutches.
This to me is a manual transmission that offers faster shifting than a foot activated clutch and hand operated stick shift.

Other cars have automatic transmissions with a torque converter and offer paddles to manually change the gear setting.
These cars will also shift themselves if the paddles aren't used.
To me this is a true automatic transmission with the inherent slip of the torque converter.

Do I have this right?

Also does anyone know if the DCT computer will shift itself or does it need to be always shifted by paddle?

DCTs are manual trannies by design (more so than torque converters) with innate automatic shifting. You generally have to enter manual mode to shift gears on the paddle otherwise it will shift for you.

There are torque converter autos that offer a similar idea, with or without paddle shifters, but old school trannies shift response is undesirable and they generally cannot transfer or hold power like the DCTs. Each shift is not as inspiring as a DCT shift where it's similar to a manual tranny shift if not even better *cough power shifting without the consequences. Manual mode in a DCT is very much like a manual car. Driving spiritedly through curves or a track, you will still have to mentally time your shifts accordingly.

I think this is why many people have misconceptions for DCTs. I can live with a modern DCT. A clutch and stick is fun, but I sometimes get tired of rowing in traffic. I'd save that car, like a manual NSX for night or weekend drives when you are feeling nostalgic and traffic is light. This is the future I envision for myself anyways, because I have yet to own a DCT car (only driven), but I reckon it is inevitable that one will be in the stable eventually.

 

[BD]

Of course that's the case, but as we all have heard, Nissan killed the Launch Control switch because the transmission exploded on numerous occasions.

Which means, in order to achieve Indy Car acceleration with production car weight of modern standard, you either have to sacrifice reliability in order to achieve maximum performance, or as a consumer, knowing that you have the capability of killing everything on the road, including your own car if you opted to show off.

That's the sticking point for Honda because it is hard to keep a car reliable while putting that kind of stress on the power train, so we as NSX lovers, do we really care about 3 second, or 3.5 will do as long as it can be used as a daily driver reliably for decades.

 

[fastaussie]

The GTR offers everything performance by sacrifices form and aesthetics in the process to achieve a low and attractive cost. Very much like the Corvette.

fastaussie: Stop letting journalist snobs influence your "soul" interpretation of a sports car. They are the same ones that covet the LFA and Bugatti because they are essentially a fashion statement, but these cars definitely do not hold the same clout to enthusiast even if there lies some serious engineering marvels behind them. The Corvette, old and new can be scary to drive but they will still never considered "soulful" because it was made in America. Old Corvettes offer the same build quality as many old exotics IMO.

Old Ferraris sounds cool, but to sit in one and ride around in it was a not so cool experience. I test drove a F355 spider (auto) out of curiosity and it was priced similar to a used NSX around the same mileage. It sounded wicked, but it felt so primitive and dated. I was not at all impressed and this car came out as a reply (in essence) to the NSX. I'd keep my NSX any day. I could not imagine paying below market value for a used one still, let alone consider maintaining one. I'm sure this could be said the same of any old "exotic", even deep into the 90s or perhaps some early 2000s exotics. I think Ferrari began to get wind of this and it shows in the evolution of the F cars. You can see the refinement and build quality get better with the 360, then 430 and finally 458. I think the verdict is still out on the 458's reliability, but 7 years maintenance included is a nice perk for new car buyers.

mate, journalists don't influence my opinions on any sportscars. only the facts or driving impressions given to me by highly qualified friends, or those done by myself. i have mates who are drivers for Ferrari, Mercedes, who drive in the X-Games, are professional racers, stunt drivers, etc. as far as journalists go, well, i am one of them on occasion too. and i know quite a few others personally. and i also drive high performance vehicles for a living. i know you're not a fan of the LFA, but some consider it to be one of the rawest cars ever made. in fact, rumour is it was purposely designed the way it was to exhibit that raw nature (single clutch tranny, etc.) we all crave now that the computers are taking over and the Terminators are coming. Jeremy Clarkson considers it his favourite car ever, and he's driven a few cars in his time and pretty much says it how it is. so much to the point that certain manufacturers bluntly refuse to let his show or magazine test their vehicles.

every exotic on the road today owes a lot to the original NSX. especially Ferrari, and even the McLaren F1, there is no question. all of those cars today are all the better because of the NSX. a Ferrari, Lamborghini, any Italian car generally exhibits the most raw and visceral driving experience possible. there is the least amount of disconnect between the road and the driver. the same is true for Italian motorcycles. it just seems to be the Italian way. that is why they are the winningest of car and motorcycle racing championships. some people may not like that, and find the cars uncomfortable, impractical, unreliable, etc. but truth is, they offer the most unadulterated driving experience of the mass produced exotic.

That criticism sounds familiar to what they said about the NSX...too easy to drive. They said the NSX was not an exotic because it doesn't scare the shit out of you like the Ferrari or rear-engine Porsche handling of the day.

My criticism of the GTR is different: Engine is in the wrong place, it is too big, too heavy, too ugly, interior layout is awful (even Corvette is better), etc. Who cares how fast it is. Frankly, one of the few things I find compelling about it is the combination of speed and a rear seat (I have kids). Did they buy Mitsubishi's concept plans for the next 3000GT VR4?

Latzke, i don't really care for the GTR for the exact same reasons above. it's just not my style, and fortunately i don't need any room for kid seats yet. Nissan figured the engine would be good in the front, and it seems to work just fine there. the criticisms about the new "techno cars" is not so much that they're really easy to drive , but rather that they're really hard to crash. the car will actually correct itself once it starts getting out of shape. that was more my point. but again, that isn't a bad thing at all. it's just that the computers are so much in control of that car. my Mum could probably rip off 3 second flat 0 to 60mph times all day long in a GTR thanx to launch control. the new cars are definitely taking some of the "driving" out of being a driver. that's my point. But again, not a bad thing, a lot of people are alive today thanx to ABS and TC. as long as you can turn it off when you want to see how good you really are.

I think an argument can be made that all modern cars drive themselves as they're automatics. Paddle shifting is no true manual.

That's why I hope I can keep my manual cars for a long time. I am sure I will "sell out" to paddle shift but only as an adjunct to my sticks. Kind of sucks but the chase for performance is sucking out the driving experience.

you are right, the chase for tenths of a second is partially responsible for the demise of the stick shift. i don't care too much about the lack of a manual transmission these days because i'll always have my old school NSX manual for driving in L.A. gridlock. the truth is, the DCT's are so much better, so much faster, so much more reliable, and most importantly, people aren't buying manuals anymore. the reason the 458 is not available in a manual transmission is because less than 2% of 430 owners opted for one. Corvettes have never been huge sellers with a manual transmission either. DCT cars are much safer for the transmission and engines. there's no missed shifts, and no accidental over rev. and you don't have a clutch to replace. on the race track you're working just as hard, you're just not using your left foot as much, but the focus, concentration and enjoyment are all still there, with faster corner entrance, upshifts and lap times to boot. but the real reason they’re going away, is because no one is buying them.

Of course that's the case, but as we all have heard, Nissan killed the Launch Control switch because the transmission exploded on numerous occasions.

That's the sticking point for Honda because it is hard to keep a car reliable while putting that kind of stress on the power train, so we as NSX lovers, do we really care about 3 second, or 3.5 will do as long as it can be used as a daily driver reliably for decades.

drop the clutch on anything with over 500hp with a heap of RPM a few times and you're gonna implode the entire drive train. doesn't matter who makes it... :biggrin:

 

[JD Cross]

DCT cars are much safer for the transmission and engines. there's no missed shifts, and no accidental over rev. and you don't have a clutch to replace.

Actually I think there are two clutches in a dual clutch transmission.

 

[Juice]

That's the sticking point for Honda because it is hard to keep a car reliable while putting that kind of stress on the power train, so we as NSX lovers, do we really care about 3 second, or 3.5 will do as long as it can be used as a daily driver reliably for decades.

I disagree. The implosion of a drive train can be diverted by bypassing the drive train. How? Direct drive electric motors. I don't know if this is the direction on the next NSX, but there is a way to get instantaneous torque without sending it through a complex gear set.

 

[Juice]

I think this is why many people have misconceptions for DCTs. I can live with a modern DCT. A clutch and stick is fun, but I sometimes get tired of rowing in traffic. I'd save that car, like a manual NSX for night or weekend drives when you are feeling nostalgic and traffic is light.

I used to mock this mentality openly. What type of wuss doesn't want a stick shift all the time? They are so engaging and cerebral!

Then I moved to Chicago. My route to and from work (the Kenedy "express" way) is deemed to have the 9th worst traffic in all the USA. I daily drive a S2000. While I love the car, I'm about done with it. Twice in my time here I have had to pull over because of severe legg cramping from working the clutch. To give you an idea, I can get to work at 5am in under 20. If I leave a 5pm, it will take 1 hour 45 minutes to arrive home.

Bring on the flappy paddles!!!!

 

[fastaussie]

I used to mock this mentality openly. What type of wuss doesn't want a stick shift all the time? They are so engaging and cerebral!

Then I moved to Chicago. My route to and from work (the Kenedy "express" way) is deemed to have the 9th worst traffic in all the USA. I daily drive a S2000. While I love the car, I'm about done with it. Twice in my time here I have had to pull over because of severe legg cramping from working the clutch. To give you an idea, I can get to work at 5am in under 20. If I leave a 5pm, it will take 1 hour 45 minutes to arrive home.

Bring on the flappy paddles!!!!

i live in L.A., i know exactly how you feel. a 40 minute drive at one time of day is a 4 hour drive at another time. there are times when i get sick of clutch in, clutch out, drive 2 feet, repeat clutch process...

- - - Updated - - -

Actually I think there are two clutches in a dual clutch transmission.

figurative JD, figurative... :smile:

 

[N Spec]

I used to mock this mentality openly. What type of wuss doesn't want a stick shift all the time? They are so engaging and cerebral!

Then I moved to Chicago. My route to and from work (the Kenedy "express" way) is deemed to have the 9th worst traffic in all the USA. I daily drive a S2000. While I love the car, I'm about done with it. Twice in my time here I have had to pull over because of severe legg cramping from working the clutch. To give you an idea, I can get to work at 5am in under 20. If I leave a 5pm, it will take 1 hour 45 minutes to arrive home.

Bring on the flappy paddles!!!!

Exactly. Sitting in an hour traffic on countless occasions has my left calf slight larger than the right and who knows the premature wear/cost that is generated to move a car 1-2 miles at 10 feet at a time every few moments. I have tried to mold my lifestyle around rush hour scheduling just so I don't have to deal with it (because I have generally owned 95%+ stick cars) but there are still days when you have no choice.

mate, journalists don't influence my opinions on any sportscars. only the facts or driving impressions given to me by highly qualified friends, or those done by myself. i have mates who are drivers for Ferrari, Mercedes, who drive in the X-Games, are professional racers, stunt drivers, etc. as far as journalists go, well, i am one of them on occasion too. and i know quite a few others personally. and i also drive high performance vehicles for a living. i know you're not a fan of the LFA, but some consider it to be one of the rawest cars ever made. in fact, rumour is it was purposely designed the way it was to exhibit that raw nature (single clutch tranny, etc.) we all crave now that the computers are taking over and the Terminators are coming. Jeremy Clarkson considers it his favourite car ever, and he's driven a few cars in his time and pretty much says it how it is. so much to the point that certain manufacturers bluntly refuse to let his show or magazine test their vehicles.

every exotic on the road today owes a lot to the original NSX. especially Ferrari, and even the McLaren F1, there is no question. all of those cars today are all the better because of the NSX. a Ferrari, Lamborghini, any Italian car generally exhibits the most raw and visceral driving experience possible. there is the least amount of disconnect between the road and the driver. the same is true for Italian motorcycles. it just seems to be the Italian way. that is why they are the winningest of car and motorcycle racing championships. some people may not like that, and find the cars uncomfortable, impractical, unreliable, etc. but truth is, they offer the most unadulterated driving experience of the mass produced exotic.

You say you don't let biased journalist influence you and then post an excerpt from a magazine about the LFA citing a ridiculous TAGline. Just because an opinion is published does not mean it's fact! Then you know nothing of DCTs saying they don't need a clutch to replace. This is not helping your credibility. DCT's are expensive, and complex. This is the number one complaint versus the simpler/easier to work on manual tranny.

Also, Price IS relevant in the automotive world - where art meets technology/science. Price IS NOT relevant in the ART world. That is the difference. Stop taking bold quotes meant to catch your eye serious and to the heart. The shock and awe is a gimmick to get you to read/buy. I bet you really get amped up when you see those catchy Audi commercials huh? Not trying to generalize, but these high "sadity" wannabe art collectors that write magazine spreads sounds fishy to me. Stop listening to your friends that read magazines all day or know nothing of cars but are rich enough to buy something with brand recognition because they subscribe to GQ, Playboy or Maxim

 

[NSX2398]

I disagree. The implosion of a drive train can be diverted by bypassing the drive train. How? Direct drive electric motors. I don't know if this is the direction on the next NSX, but there is a way to get instantaneous torque without sending it through a complex gear set.

On a related .. but slightly different topic .. it occurred to me today that I don't recall hearing exactly how the hybrid system is intended to work following a 'start'. Does the engine immediately start .. or only (like some hybrids) after the car has moved xx distance where 'xx' can in some cases mean many miles. If the strategy truly is to use the electric motors for torque from a stop .. then start the motor later .. then I foresee an undesirable situation at 'cars and coffee' meets where we (a) can't start the engine and rev it a bit .. and/or (b) we accelerate away from a crowd in complete silence. I know in the video when they offloading the car at mid-Ohio, the motor was running even while sitting in the truck .. but many people have pointed out that this is not the prod'n car .. likely not the prod'n engine .. likely not the prod'n exhaust .. and maybe not even the hybrid drive .. so I'm not sure we can use that as a proof point.

 

[N Spec]

On a related .. but slightly different topic .. it occurred to me today that I don't recall hearing exactly how the hybrid system is intended to work following a 'start'. Does the engine immediately start .. or only (like some hybrids) after the car has moved xx distance where 'xx' can in some cases mean many miles. If the strategy truly is to use the electric motors for torque from a stop .. then start the motor later .. then I foresee an undesirable situation at 'cars and coffee' meets where we (a) can't start the engine and rev it a bit .. and/or (b) we accelerate away from a crowd in complete silence. I know in the video when they offloading the car at mid-Ohio, the motor was running even while sitting in the truck .. but many people have pointed out that this is not the prod'n car .. likely not the prod'n engine .. likely not the prod'n exhaust .. and maybe not even the hybrid drive .. so I'm not sure we can use that as a proof point.

Yes, this is a good question that has not been clearly divulged. I think the Ohio prototpe was maybe a test/opportunity to fine tune the chassis, suspension and perhaps non-hybrid engine alone.

In the Gran Turismo video/trailer, it shows the e-motors propelling the car first and then the engine kicking in when the throttle was pushed harder. Then in the superbowl commercial, you can hear the start up at standstill. I personally think they are going with augmentation versus supplementation or even better an option to switch modes on the fly. We may find out when the RLX SH-AWD finally debuts.

 

[fastaussie]

You say you don't let biased journalist influence you and then post an excerpt from a magazine about the LFA citing a ridiculous TAGline. Just because an opinion is published does not mean it's fact! Then you know nothing of DCTs saying they don't need a clutch to replace. This is not helping your credibility. DCT's are expensive, and complex. This is the number one complaint versus the simpler/easier to work on manual tranny.

Also, Price IS relevant in the automotive world - where art meets technology/science. Price IS NOT relevant in the ART world. That is the difference. Stop taking bold quotes meant to catch your eye serious and to the heart. The shock and awe is a gimmick to get you to read/buy. I bet you really get amped up when you see those catchy Audi commercials huh? Not trying to generalize, but these high "sadity" wannabe art collectors that write magazine spreads sounds fishy to me. Stop listening to your friends that read magazines all day or know nothing of cars but are rich enough to buy something with brand recognition because they subscribe to GQ, Playboy or Maxim

N Spec, let's take it down a notch aye? i get it, you don't like the LFA. you don't like anything about it. some people love it, some people don't. that's alright whichever opinion anyone wants to have. some guys in this conversation like it, Jeremy Clarkson likes it, you don't. let's move on. we're simply having a discussion of supercars and supercar technology. it's all fairly relevant because we're comparing all this stuff to everyone here's favourite supercar, the NSX. i also know what DCT stands for. simply stating it's not like replacing a "conventional" clutch in a "conventional" manual transmission operated by a conventional human being. it should under normal use last quite a bit longer, this is what i hear. of course any form of an automatic transmission is more complex and expensive to repair/maintain/replace. it goes without saying. it seems i've stumbled onto "literal day" here on the forum. i'm not here looking for credibility, just having a chat about supercars and supercar technology. let's leave it at that. moving on...

- - - Updated - - -

On a related .. but slightly different topic .. it occurred to me today that I don't recall hearing exactly how the hybrid system is intended to work following a 'start'. Does the engine immediately start .. or only (like some hybrids) after the car has moved xx distance where 'xx' can in some cases mean many miles. If the strategy truly is to use the electric motors for torque from a stop .. then start the motor later .. then I foresee an undesirable situation at 'cars and coffee' meets where we (a) can't start the engine and rev it a bit .. and/or (b) we accelerate away from a crowd in complete silence. I know in the video when they offloading the car at mid-Ohio, the motor was running even while sitting in the truck .. but many people have pointed out that this is not the prod'n car .. likely not the prod'n engine .. likely not the prod'n exhaust .. and maybe not even the hybrid drive .. so I'm not sure we can use that as a proof point.

i would say you cannot ascertain anything at all from the NSX prototype lapping Mid-Ohio. if anything, the entire point of those laps was most likely a publicity stunt above all else. only time will tell what the engine configurations of the NSX will be. and not before they want us to know...

 

[N Spec]

N Spec, let's take it down a notch aye? i get it, you don't like the LFA. you don't like anything about it. some people love it, some people don't. that's alright whichever opinion anyone wants to have. some guys in this conversation like it, Jeremy Clarkson likes it, you don't. let's move on. we're simply having a discussion of supercars and supercar technology. it's all fairly relevant because we're comparing all this stuff to everyone here's favourite supercar, the NSX. i also know what DCT stands for. simply stating it's not like replacing a "conventional" clutch in a "conventional" manual transmission operated by a conventional human being. it should under normal use last quite a bit longer, this is what i hear. of course any form of an automatic transmission is more complex and expensive to repair/maintain/replace. it goes without saying. it seems i've stumbled onto "literal day" here on the forum. i'm not here looking for credibility, just having a chat about supercars and supercar technology. let's leave it at that. moving on...

Relax, my tone which is hard to tell in an internet post is not very serious, even though I meant what I said. You still misunderstand. The LFA is nice and it has nice attributes, like the interior or exhaust note. I like the fact that it tries to appear like a mid-engine car even though it's not one. I'm just saying quotes like that article are ridiculous and inaccurate. Most people who covet the car, like it for the wrong reasons. You posting a scan of the LFA did not help end the discussion about it.

Not trying impede on you posting here, but you just seem to be posting stereotypical opinions that have been posted and addressed up here on several occasions. What you are getting are my comments on those opinions.

You may have meant that the transmission leaves less room for human error and thus should be more reliable, but it did not come across that way in your post, especially when you say there is no clutch. DCT technology is still relatively new to mass production, and I'd say it's too early to say if it's been perfected yet in the sense of long term reliability with high powered vehicles. It certainly looks promising tho

 

[docjohn]

Relax, my tone which is hard to tell in an internet post is not very serious, even though I meant what I said. You still misunderstand. The LFA is nice and it has nice attributes, like the interior or exhaust note. I like the fact that it tries to appear like a mid-engine car even though it's not one. I'm just saying quotes like that article are ridiculous and inaccurate. Most people who covet the car, like it for the wrong reasons.

how do you know that folks wealthy enough to lease an lfa covet it for the wrong reasons....what are the right reasons?

 

[MRNSX 2.0]

 

[N Spec]

how do you know that folks wealthy enough to lease an lfa covet it for the wrong reasons....what are the right reasons?

I don't know if any statistic is in fact a real fact, only what I can gauge from my observations and interactions. The people that I have talked to about the LFA and actually know what it is, have read it in an article for a magazine or online. I would then try to engage in car talk and they usually don't even know the difference between a C5 or C6 Corvette, the 300ZX preceded the 350Z or that Honda is Acura/ Toyota is Lexus. This is not necessarily the ones that buy/lease the LFA, but I can't imagine out of ~500 owners in the world, that the majority of them bought one for reasons outside of rarity/exclusiveness or status related statements. Yes I am aware there are many owners who track these cars, but then think about the thousands if not millions of people (compared to maybe 1/3 or 1/2 of the the 500) who know/like the LFA name only because of it's price tag/rarity.

This little sample here in the link below suggests that quite a few are procured by dealership owners. I have met and have worked for several dealership owners on many occasions. While they may be business savvy and some are car guys on occasion (usually more of prolific collectors than anything else), they generally have very little knowledge of car history, technology/design or appreciation for cars other than the fact that it's a source of profit. One Honda dealership owner offered to buy my NSX and regaled me with a story of when they first came out. "I wanted one back in the 80s, but my ex-wife back then couldn't justify me spending almost 40 grand for a Honda. I wonder what she thinks now..." Perhaps his memory is just a little fuzzy. This is a man who drove a white S2000, white SL500 and white C4 Corvette to work on varying days of the week. Guess what color my car was... and how shocked he was when I told him my break away price... Not trying to generalize car dealer owners, but I have not met many who were in business because they love cars:

http://lexuslfaregistry.wikispaces.com/

Then you have owners like these:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/129523/paris-hilton-joins-lexus-lfa-owners-club-twice/

http://www.complex.com/rides/2013/0...a-500000-lexus-lfa-supercar-for-his-dub-shoot

I'm not saying dislike a car because someone else bought it, but this shows how an expensive/exclusive car can be nothing more than a fashion statement or marketing ploy. Very much like rappers rapping about Bugattis and knowing nothing of Bugatti's history off hand. They just know ~2 million dollars, ~1000 hp and 200+ mph. I bet I could tell Rick Ross the Bugatti was powered by a turbo and superchargered Inline 3 and it wouldn't make a difference If price is irrelevant for the LFA, then why do I see all of these articles or people quoting the MSRP or monthly lease payments???

I know I sound like a hater, but I am not. People have a right to own whatever they please or like what they like. I'm just expressing my own disappointment in car that could have been so much better and put more smiles on many more owner's faces if Toyota didn't botch it and decided to take a rare art spin on the car instead of hoping the car's merits would sell. We as car enthusiast weigh values and specs along with all of the other categories when comparing cars. I would like to think that cart enthusiast are like that anyways. Toyota could have sold thousands of the LFA if it was better designed, even at the $150-$300K mark for a Toyota and perhaps even turn a profit. A win/win situation for the consumer and company. Ferrari obviously knows that it'll take more than art to sell their cars, especially with escalated pricing. This is why they have introduced more science to their car over the years instead of relying on "soul" or "art" to sell a car - not a museum piece, that comes later if the car is special enough.

I have been following the LFA since conception and technically I've always been a fan in one way or another. I have spent countless intimate hours re-creating various sports cars/ exotics in the 3D realm for a hobby:

http://www.cgpeoplenetwork.com/products/product_index.php?seller=Azotic

I published a 3D model of the LFA concept before the release of the production car and I would have a production version 3d model too if I wasn't so let down with the results (more so of the direction and specs, it actually looks better than the concept)...

So don't think I hate the LFA. I dislike Toyota's process and approach to it once the results panned. I could dislike the new NSX one day if Honda botches it too. However, the new NSX is looking much more promising.

 

[Dhalsim]

so here is another pic I saw this morning...............

 

[JD Cross]

simply stating it's not like replacing a "conventional" clutch in a "conventional" manual transmission . it seems i've stumbled onto "literal day" here on the forum. i'm not here looking for credibility, just having a chat about supercars and supercar technology. let's leave it at that. moving on...

I must admit between your Lotus and DCT statements I have been confused.
As you are a journalist and test car driver perhaps you are used to a less literal audience.
In any event with technology involved perhaps being literal is best.

 

[latzke]

I get confused on manual and automatic terminology these days

I understand the DCT is a manual transmission with dual clutches and instead of the stick shift it has solenoids activated by paddles to shift the gears and work the clutches.
This to me is a manual transmission that offers faster shifting than a foot activated clutch and hand operated stick shift.

Other cars have automatic transmissions with a torque converter and offer paddles to manually change the gear setting.
These cars will also shift themselves if the paddles aren't used.
To me this is a true automatic transmission with the inherent slip of the torque converter.

Do I have this right?

DCTs are manual trannies by design (more so than torque converters) with innate automatic shifting. You generally have to enter manual mode to shift gears on the paddle otherwise it will shift for you.

DCT cars are much safer for the transmission and engines. there's no missed shifts, and no accidental over rev. and you don't have a clutch to replace.

Actually I think there are two clutches in a dual clutch transmission.

This (two clutches) is key and what makes them REALLY cool (and gives the DCT name).

A break-down of what's out there (there are more, like CVT, but this is good enough)...

1. Manual transmissions. We all know what these are. Example: NSX

2. Automatic transmissions (torque converter). We all know what these are. Some allow the driver to select gear via paddles. Example: Auto version of NSX

3. Electrohydraulic manual transmission. This is a manual transmission where the clutch and shifting are done via computer-controlled hydraulics, when you tell it to via paddle shifters. Most also have "auto" modes where it will do the thinking for you. Like regular manual transmissions, the shift process is: Press clutch, shift gears, release clutch. Examples: "F1" versions of F355 & 360, LFA, etc.

4. DCT (Dual-Clutch Transmission). This is a manual transmission with two clutches and two independent input shafts, with shifting done via computer-controlled hydraulics. It is almost like having two electrohydraulic manual transmissions in one housing with a shared output shaft. There is an input shaft for odd gears and one for even gears (each with its own clutch). Only one clutch is ever engaged at the same time. These are so much faster/better because this is the shift process (example is 1st to 2nd gear):

While accelerating in 1st, clutch for odd input shaft is engaged (pedal released), clutch driving even input shaft is disengaged (pedal pressed), and 2nd gear is already selected on the even input shaft. When transmission gets signal to shift from 1st to 2nd (from paddles or auto mode) the two clutches are actuated (odd disengaged, even engaged).

The timing of the clutches (spacing between disengagement of the one and engagement of the other), the speed of the clutches (drop or gradual engagement), and engine throttle application (let-off to drop RPM on upshift, blip to raise RPM on downshift, modulation during "launch control") can all be varied to give desired shifting. You can have smooth shifting around town, brutally instant shifts under hard track acceleration, perfectly rev-matched downshifts entering corners, etc.

While there are clutches to replace, they have the potential to last much longer than manual transmission clutches. The work/wear is split between two clutches. Like with the Electrohydraulic MT, bad human technique is eliminated (NSX clutches can last well beyond 100k miles of very-spirited driving, yet some need replacing at just 30k due to driver technique). Also, some DTCs on higher-horsepower cars (458 Italia, Veyron) use wet clutches instead of dry. I suspect NSX will have dry because those are easier to service and more (fuel) efficient (unless I'm missing something and the design is different than conventional car clutches - so if not wet you get the Ducatti box-of-rocks rattle when not engaged...which at least one of the two always is). The only way I see them wearing faster is if the "soft" modes use too much slipping or from use of "launch control" if it makes relatively liberal use of slipping during engagement.

DCT, has replaced the Electrohydraulic MT for high-performance sportscars/supercars and is so good/preferred most companies are not even bothering to offer regular manual transmissions as an option (when they do, they sell poorly). You also never, ever, have a "money shift" - which I think is appealing to car manufacturers in terms of avoiding liability of warranty engine repairs due to driver error (or pissing off customers from denying such repairs).

 

[JD Cross]

latzke
Thank you very much for the transmission summary.
Makes it all clear now.

 

[fastaussie]

how do you know that folks wealthy enough to lease an lfa covet it for the wrong reasons....what are the right reasons?

i'd have to say i've only run into two types of people regarding the LFA. those who have no idea what it is, and those who know exactly what it is. of the people i've run across who have actually purchased the car, they knew exactly what it was. and they weren't just really wealthy individuals looking to spend their daily allowance on something cool. those types of clueless individuals would typically buy a bright yellow Lamborghini, with the biggest wing they could find.

N Spec, i dunno if you can say Toyota botched the car? as the world's #1 automaker, they know a lot about making cars. the car is obviously exactly as they wanted it, otherwise it would have been different. i'd say they built it to their ideal and intended to keep the production run low. they sell more cars than anyone, they can do whatever they feel like. that is a fact, not an opinion.

I must admit between your Lotus and DCT statements I have been confused.

JD, i dunno what you're referring to about the Lotus confusion, you’ll have to reiterate? my comment about not having to replace a clutch with DCT was referring to the new 458 transmission. Ferrari claims the clutch will last the life of the car. the entire gearbox is apparently a sealed unit and there is no service for it. not even the fluid needs replacing. of course, this is an Italian machine and only time will tell if this unit is actually that good, but that is what they claim at this time. 3 years in the cars seem to be holding up very well.

Latzke brings up a really good point about wet/dry clutches. you mentioned Ducati, who are synonymous with dry clutches on their road bikes for decades. the Japanese who have always used wet clutches on their street bikes also use dry clutches on their large displacement racing motorcycles, Superbike and MotoGP especially. as they don't bath in their own (engine sump) oil, dry clutches are less prone to slipping after repeated hard launches, or just from trying to harness in excess of 250hp per litre over race distance. however in turn they can be more grabby and harder to modulate under normal non-racing use.

my guess would be a wet clutch DCT system with a dry sump for the new NSX?

 

[JD Cross]

JD, i dunno what you're referring to about the Lotus confusion, you’ll have to reiterate? over race distance.

See post #129 in this thread

 

[fastaussie]

There were talks of Lotus going bankrupt and that is not good press, especially if you are going to invest a large sum of money into a sports car and wonder about manufacturer support later on. It's not a bad looking car, and it looks like it would beat out even the LFA at a quarter of the price. This is ironic considering the parent engine provider. However, the future is looking sketchy for Lotus and they have never been able bring the clout that McLaren can.

JD, the comment about "time will tell" was in regards to N Spec's comments about the future of Lotus as a car company and any future models they had planned...

 

[JD Cross]

JD, the comment about "time will tell" was in regards to N Spec's comments about the future of Lotus as a car company and any future models they had planned...

Your comment said that not only was Lotus beating McLaren in F1 but they also knew how to make iconic road cars, which implies one company doing both things.
My point was that Lotus F1 and Lotus Cars are two separate and distinct entities with nothing in common but the name Lotus.

Whether Lotus Cars survives wasn't part of the issue

 

[fastaussie]

oh, that's what i was talking about. the former was the question i was answering.

they may well be different entities. as are Ford and Cosworth. Mercedes and AMG were also separate companies until pretty recently. but i wouldn't be surprised if the technologies and advancements made with one arm wouldn't be shared with the other...