fastaussie
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i really like your thinking! i'd be happy with either one of those powertrain options, but i reckon the former is a much more likely scenario than the latter...
Acura NSX Details Emerge - in Today's Autoweek
- Thread starter nsxtasy
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i really like your thinking! i'd be happy with either one of those powertrain options, but i reckon the former is a much more likely scenario than the latter...
Wasn't the original supposed to compete with the Ferrari 348 (or was it 328?)? If that's the case then the 458 would be the natural competitor, so why should Honda step down a tier to competing with 911s? I'm assuming it isn't a matter of cost/feasibility if Nissan is able to do it with the GTR at around $100,000. Just curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.
fastaussie
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really like those interior shots, gorgeous colour and layout. no sign of a manual shifter however...
Like docjohn said, Ferrari was at a low point when the NSX was released. Right now, nearly every manufacturer is at the top of their game. Very stiff competition. New R8 coming out, refreshed GTR coming out, new Gallardo replacment coming, new Porsches have been released.
While Ferrari was the target for the NSX, I am not sure what the new target is. Honda has not been clear on that at all. But if they are looking at every day usability with supercar performance, I don't think they need to look farther than a GTR or 911.
As docjohn and Caustic have stated Ferrari was a fairly easy target to aim at when the NSX came out.
And I agree that the number of cars in this small market segment has increased and competition is brisk.
Ferrari cleverly moved upmarket further regaining their dominant position, but were recently joined by McLaren.
Both companies are active in F1 giving them a unique position in the market but the volumes in this segment are not large - perhaps 4-5,000 cars per year at $250K.
As Honda is a volume producer and lacks the exclusivity associated with Ferrari and McLaren, how many buyers would they find for a $250K NSX at this point?
Very few I would think, no matter how good the car.
This leaves the next tier down as a sensible/doable strategy, and why Porsche strikes me as a marque to position the NSX against.
Honda is not likely to announce who they have the crosshairs on and perhaps why they tell us they are benchmarking everyone.
I'm pretty sure Honda's benchmarking of the new NSX is not giving Ferrari/McLaren a warm fuzzy feeling despite those companies being out of reach today.
It's been my observation that Japanese companies enter a market segment offering a superior product at great value.
They usually will have a factory that is low cost giving them an advantage against their chosen competitors(s)
The Lexus assault on the luxury market, the NSX in the upper sports car segment, the Miata in the lower sports car bracket all come to mind
A car equal to or better than the competition, better dealer service, lower price.
Once the target market share has been reached then the Japanese companies begin the raise prices to improve profitability.
Our NSX will be built in a special factory which should be low cost and I suspect will be priced to offer value against, in my opinion Porsche.
Now at the same time we see Honda re-entering F1 as an engine builder.
This move will certainly help raise Honda's image.
If the NSX is sold worldwide as an Acura it could be the start of Honda moving to re-position the Acura marque upmarket worldwide.
Volkswagen has done this with Lamborghini, Bugatti and Fiat has Ferrari.
Masterful positioning by the companies.
If Honda has really come alive and has a strategy for Acura we might expect to see an evolving NSX moving ever upward toward Ferrari/McLaren
The biggest sign of this might be the exclusivity of the new NSX.
if you can't easily get one, they will likely stay in demand, as exclusivity is a large factor in this segment.
if Honda again overproduces the NSX, cuts the price, and diminishes it's aura, then no matter how good it is, it will be just another Japanese volume car.
In the case of the GTR I think it's aimed at a different buyer segment.
Younger buyers, all about horsepower, kind of like the muscle cars of my youth.
Sort of like you drag race the GTR, and you track day the NSX.
Reading Prime I see some NSX owners move to Porsche as a next step, while other and perhaps younger NSX owners want a GTR.
I don't read anywhere about many Porsche owners moving to GTR's.
I will be fascinated to see how this unfolds over the next 3-5 years and despite some misgivings I have my new NSX ordered and hope to see it in 2015.
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fastaussie
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i reckon you could say the same of Toyota/Lexus? they’re also very large volume producers of perfectly useable and sensible, cost effective and fuel efficient vehicles. but they made the completely mental LFA, and sell every one they manufacture. and Toyota certainly doesn't have the racing pedigree of Ferrari or McLaren either. and to top it all off, Toyota doesn't actually make a penny on any of them, as they cost more to make than they regain from selling them, even at $400,000 each. but it's a flagship model. it's a showcase of what the company is capable of. much as i believe the NSX was for Honda. i have a feeling they didn't make a lot of money on the first NSX run. but i'm pretty sure Honda makes enough money on Civics, Accords and CRV's to balance out any losses on a technology showboat sportscar. if they make it rock, the car will definitely sell. but honestly, I don’t think that’s the whole point...
No question Toyota is a volume manufacturer of very practical cars.
During the time of the LFA development in the mid-2000's Toyota was also in F1.
I suspect they saw an opportunity to give their company a significant image boost using the F1 tie-in.
The LFA certainly did that.
If Toyota was not in F1 I wonder if the LFA would have been attempted.
Nissan, while not in F1, is certainly active in other forms of racing and the development of their V8 in the Supercar series is worth a watch.
There seems to be a significant link between racing and high performance sports car manufacturing with the Japanese manufacturers.
Do you think Toyota will continue with LFA type vehicles now that they are not racing?
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Um yeah you didn't know about this one
http://inhabitat.com/lexus-reveals-sneak-peek-of-new-lf-lc-luxury-sports-coupe-concept-car/
I think I read about that in Edmunds a while back.
As it's a four seater I thought Toyota was aiming more at the Porsche Panamera, M-B AMG and BMW M sedans, than the two seat market like the LFA.
Do you think the LF-LC is a competitor in the two seat market?
I think Toyota like Honda has the capabilities to outdo Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche - IF they truly wanted to. The LFA was poorly executed due to a long development time but it's evident that Toyota has the resources.
Toyota should bring back the MR2 with perhaps a turbo Subaru engine since they are doing so well with them. For a long time Yamaha has been building sportscar engines for Toyota, but now it seems that they are giving Subaru a chance. I do not see why they cannot make another mid-engine coupe. This would attract a lot of sales and eat up some of the NSX market and also the cult MR2 market like what the FR-S/BRZ did.
Toyota should bring back the MR2 with perhaps a turbo Subaru engine since they are doing so well with them. For a long time Yamaha has been building sportscar engines for Toyota, but now it seems that they are giving Subaru a chance. I do not see why they cannot make another mid-engine coupe. This would attract a lot of sales and eat up some of the NSX market and also the cult MR2 market like what the FR-S/BRZ did.
fastaussie
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Nissan is already playing with super high performance cars with the GTR, so who knows what they'll do? not many people really consider the GTR a legit Supercar however, it's generally dubbed more of a techno-wonder car. whatever it is, it's for sure bloody fast as hell!
as for Toyota, i certainly hope they continue to produce the LFA or a vehicle similar to it. i'm not personally a fan of the car's styling and i'd never purchase one even if i did want to spend the money (low mileage used examples are selling for $300k to $399k), but i absolutely love what it is and give Toyota massive credit for building it. and in my opinion it has the most amazing sound of any production powerplant besides the Lamborghini Aventador. if you were blindfolded and listening to an LFA, you could for a moment think you were at an F1 race in Monaco...
N Spec, just curious, why do you think the LFA was poorly executed? i think it's a modern day marvel of Supercars. 4.8 litre V10, 552 hp, carbon fibre body, 9,000 rpm redline with the sweetest sounding engine on earth!
i agree a modern day Turbo MR2 would be a magnificent car. a 2500 lbs. package with 300hp+ would be a huge seller. i don't think it would hurt NSX sales however, two entirely different price ranges and car categories. i do imagine it would put a hurting on the lower priced Lotus models for sure. why buy a Lotus Elise 4-banger if Toyota made a wicked little MR2? but the people who buy an Elise or Exige are not the same group to buy an NSX, Ferrari F-car, McLaren or Porsche…
The V10 is really the only thing impressive feat to me from Toyota. Even then, at ~115 hp/liter, while impressive, they are still not hanging with the big boys. The old school tranny instead of a dual clutch and the front-engine layout weighing in at over 3400lbs with all of that carbon fiber and lightweight material??? These are the general complaints. It's a flawed piece of art for collectors. I suppose a homage to the old school exotics...
The 458 at nearly half the price of the LFA looks better IMO, outperforms it (their V8 outpowers the V10 from Toyohama), is still in production, has a decent aftermarket scene (exhaust mods unleash some serious hp and sound), comes with free maintenance (for newer models) and I bet it will get better gas mileage :tongue: while still offering that Ferrari sound. You can also not have a serious heart attack if you wreck it because it can be replaced. I know it's not truly a fair comparison, but if we are talking about value, the Ferrari wins.
fastaussie
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fair enough, i can understand that. in that same regard, if Honda makes the NSX 3200 lbs. and less than 500 horsepower, what will our consensus be about it?
at this time, the Ferrari 458 is currently the best (base model, non-special edition, non 1-off production, mass produced) sportscar on planet earth, period...
at this time, the Ferrari 458 is currently the best (base model, non-special edition, non 1-off production, mass produced) sportscar on planet earth, period...
Uh the 2014 911 GT3 has turned that period into a question mark
At 3200 lbs. and, say 475 hp, it would have 6.7 lbs. per hp about the same as a GT3.
So a GT3 competitor?
QUOTE=WingZ;1723295]Uh the 2014 911 GT3 has turned that period into a question mark[/QUOTE]
458 is 5.8 lbs. per hp
GT3 is 6.6 lbs. per hp
The 458 has a 13 % advantage on lb. per hp so will perhaps keep the period.
If Honda releases a ~450-500 hp car at 3,300 lbs or even 3,400 lbs, I would be impressed because of two reasons. It has 3 e-motors with batteries and it's most likely going cost less than $150K versus a $400K car that is supposed to be spartan like the original NSX but has extensive carbon fiber use and somehow weighs in at 3,500 lbs??? Just imagine how much the NSX could weigh without the hybrid tech, sub 3000 lbs I'm sure. The 918 weighs 3700lbs and it has a very similar system in place. This is a vehicle priced and meant to compete with the P1 and "LaFerrari", and that's essentially the best they could do sans a 100 lb weight reduction in similar style to a Type R/Race car treatment that everyone seems to be doing now.
If Lexus came out with LFA with the exact specs it is now, but instead of building a extravagant carbon fiber loom to build the ridiculous chassis, and used aluminum or other proven manufacturing techniques so that the cost of the car was closer $120K-$150K, I think the verdict would be completely different for the elusive LFA. It's definitely not in my mind a car enthusiast's car. It's more like engineers gone drunk or educated skilled workers without proper leadership during the project. In the 90s, Toyota helped challenge the idea of value for a sports car and now they reneged on that philiosophy, almost as if they were stepping backwards in time.
As for the GT3 versus 458, I think Wingz meant track performance versus drag strip, but I think it's a little too early to say because the GT3 has not been fully tested yet.
If Lexus came out with LFA with the exact specs it is now, but instead of building a extravagant carbon fiber loom to build the ridiculous chassis, and used aluminum or other proven manufacturing techniques so that the cost of the car was closer $120K-$150K, I think the verdict would be completely different for the elusive LFA. It's definitely not in my mind a car enthusiast's car. It's more like engineers gone drunk or educated skilled workers without proper leadership during the project. In the 90s, Toyota helped challenge the idea of value for a sports car and now they reneged on that philiosophy, almost as if they were stepping backwards in time.
As for the GT3 versus 458, I think Wingz meant track performance versus drag strip, but I think it's a little too early to say because the GT3 has not been fully tested yet.
fastaussie
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you certainly don't seem a fan of the LFA N Spec. no worries mate, i've never really been a fan of Porsches myself. but i don't think building a flagship model has heaps to do with value or competitive pricing. some times being more expensive makes it more bad arse, and or more desirable? exclusivity means everything to some people. that car was simply about Toyota saying to the automotive world, "hey, look what we can do"! which is exactly what Honda did with the original NSX.
i personally could care less about 1/4 mile drag strip performance. any one of the myriad of cars we've talked about all get down the dragstrip pretty well. and the differences between the finishing order of any of those cars is more based on the driver than the cars themselves. there's a lot more road or track left after that first 1/4 mile.
i think the universal opinion at this time is that there's no better car on the road than the 458. that of course will change soon enough, it always does. but for now what makes the 458 so awesome isn't the engine or any one thing. it's the entire car equating to more than the sum of its parts. the engine is absolutely superb in every way, no question. but the chassis, brakes, transmission, suspension, etc. are also probably without equal. that car has no shortcomings. if i'm not mistaken i believe the 458 even requires less maintenance than an NSX? but more importantly, i don't think there's another street car at this time which telegraphs what is happening at the road better. it is an extraordinary car to drive fast, it's not overloaded with electronics like the GTR or McLaren, which makes it a more exhilarating and ultimately more rewarding drive. i've driven heavier cars with more power, and lighter ones with less power, but Ferrari seems to have found the magical balance at the moment with the 458. you’re never left wanting for anything more. can Honda do the same with whatever they have brewing?
i know electric/hybrid motors are the new tech and all the rage for the future, but i hope the cars don't keep getting heavier and heavier. i would hate to think the new Supercars will be 4000 lbs. when we used to drive ones that were 3000...
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another competitor no one really mentions is the upcoming Lotus cars, specifically the new Esprit:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/lotus-esprit-news-2014-lotus-esprit-debut
3200 lbs., turbo charged 5.0 V8, 7-speed dual clutch tranny, 612hp, and a KERS system. $110,000
that's a tough target if ever there was one...
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The GTR is Nissan's flagship and it presents plenty of value. The NSX was and will be Honda's flagship. It has and will most-likely also offer value. The LFA offered nothing special or revolutionary to the car scene unlike the NSX back in the 1990s. The GT3 is Porsche's flagship essentially if you don't count the one-offs that are the Carrera GT or 918. In fact I personally would take the Carrerar GT over the LFA anyday if both were within my grasp.
We are in the year 2013 now, not 1983. Are you aware of current events? The value of the dollar is very important these days. It's not cool to just frivolously spend money because a company or official is simply asking for it. There is a level of competence and efficiency that is expected these days. Consumers are smarter and the magnifying glass is much larger. This is why there's only about 500 LFAs out there and apparently they were struggling to sell the last few. Sure, there are people who have nothing better to spend their money on, but it's no longer the 80s.
The "hyper cars" LaFerrari and McLaren P1 are still roughly only 3000 lbs. It is the 918 that weighs 3,700 lbs. Even the Espirit with KERS weighs ~3200 lbs. Don't let the weights of the heavy hitters like the LFA, GTR and 918 let you think otherwise.
There were talks of Lotus going bankrupt and that is not good press, especially if you are going to invest a large sum of money into a sports car and wonder about manufacturer support later on. It's not a bad looking car, and it looks like it would beat out even the LFA
at a quarter of the price. This is ironic considering the parent engine provider. However, the future is looking sketchy for Lotus and they have never been able bring the clout that McLaren can.
fastaussie
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if that were the case, the Bugatti Veyron would never exist...
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There were talks of Lotus going bankrupt and that is not good press, especially if you are going to invest a large sum of money into a sports car and wonder about manufacturer support later on. It's not a bad looking car, and it looks like it would beat out even the LFA
as for Lotus, only time will tell. but they're kicking McLaren's arse in Formula 1 lately and they know a thing or two about racing and making iconic sportscars...
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The Buggatti, another car I loathe
Have you seen the modded GTR beating the Veyron? Just saying...Lotus does know racing or atleast building race cars anyways. Their production cars have never really impressed me though, especially with fit and finish. The Elise was horrible and I tried to like the Evora, but after seeing one in person, I was disappointed.
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