ABS or No ABS

[8400RPM]

No ABS. No TCS. R Compound here. Drives like a dream. Never had to lock up but if I did lock up could escape it. Canadians get used to driving in Winter conditions which is a lot like track driving hah.
This car has never seen the track but I've got lots of seat time and would not be scared for an instant about how it would handle at the track. I mean it really comes down to your driving ability. If you push the car way beyond the limits there's no coming back from it whether you have ABS or not!

 

[jond]

This car has never seen the track but I've got lots of seat time and would not be scared for an instant about how it would handle at the track. I mean it really comes down to your driving ability. If you push the car way beyond the limits there's no coming back from it whether you have ABS or not!

I don't know. I used to get the ABS firing in my old Type-R on the front stretch of VIR. I don't remember, probably 120-130mph -> 100% brakes and the tail just does a little wiggle.
It will wake you up. I can't imagine how fast it would have broken loose without ABS.

 

[8400RPM]

I don't know. I used to get the ABS firing in my old Type-R on the front stretch of VIR. I don't remember, probably 120-130mph -> 100% brakes and the tail just does a little wiggle.
It will wake you up. I can't imagine how fast it would have broken loose without ABS.

Holy shit. I've never been in a situation where I was doing 130 mph and had to smash the brakes 100%. Even in the ITR I would be scared as hell to do that. At those speeds changing the balance of the car that much must be very spooky.

 

[Juice]

But that's the point here. You done need it until you do, just like insurance.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

But that's the point here. You done need it until you do, just like insurance.

That's a great point. I've been still debating about my ABS system.

Even Dali has told me not to touch it and keep it in.

 

[RYU]

But that's the point here. You done need it until you do, just like insurance.

That's a great point. I've been still debating about my ABS system.

Even Dali has told me not to touch it and keep it in.

Here's the thing though... The early ABS is horrible because it takes over completely for too long.

Just the other day I did a semi-hard stop. My front left tire lost traction crossing the painted pedestrian line. ABS kicked on and my car went forward a good 1-2ft or so because the pulses are so incredibly slow. For a split second I thought the car was going to cross into passing traffic. It's unnerving. Will I have locked up with or w/o ABS? probably but I feel like i'd be in more control.

In most cases i'd really much rather not have it. The ABS in newer cars are much much better as many of you probably know. There's no way i'm better than the new units at all. Yet, I feel I react faster than the older units.

I'm close to yanking this thing out.

 

[Juice]

Ryu, you are correct. The earlier system is horrible and, frankly, fear inducing. Honda eventually released an improvement and then another. So yes, there is a problem there and everyone knows it. That is why SOS sells the upgrade.

 

[MrHugo]

Here's the thing though... The early ABS is horrible because it takes over completely for too long.

Just the other day I did a semi-hard stop. My front left tire lost traction crossing the painted pedestrian line. ABS kicked on and my car went forward a good 1-2ft or so because the pulses are so incredibly slow. For a split second I thought the car was going to cross into passing traffic. It's unnerving. Will I have locked up with or w/o ABS? probably but I feel like i'd be in more control.

In most cases i'd really much rather not have it. The ABS in newer cars are much much better as many of you probably know. There's no way i'm better than the new units at all. Yet, I feel I react faster than the older units.

I'm close to yanking this thing out.

That was exactly the reason I took it off after two very close encounters with a slow ABS system. The system would trip and then I just lost complete control over it for a good second. I know I could have stopped in a shorter distance with out ABS than with the 1st Gen ABS. I am now without it and much more comfortable driving know what to expect now when I have to brake hard. I will eventually upgrade to NA2 ABS, hopefully.

 

[R13]

I have the late-model ABS system on my car and it's frankly great. It will allow a little chirp usually before engaging...which means if I'm threshold braking the ABS on the track, I'm very-nearly threshold braking the tires.

As a point, due to a faulty wiring connector for a wheel-speed sensor, I had no ABS for a track weekend at Road Atlanta this past weekend (stupid non-weatherproof connectors). I did find a few places where I'd been "cheesing" the ABS system to transfer weight while I still have a little steering input, but lap-time-wise, I didn't get appreciably faster or slower, I just created a few small flat-spots here and there on the fronts.

So Given the extra safety net both on and off the track, as well as the fact it'll save my tires in moments of indiscretion.....I'll keep it on the car thanks.

Also, the new system weighs about 1/4 or less what the old system weighs. I got rid of the module behind the dash as on top of the massive dinosaur of a modulator assembly.

 

[Mac Attack]

“When you go into this sort of electronic war,.....The electronics do a given situation, and no matter who you put in the car, the electronics will do the work and not the driver. and I don’t think that is really what you want to have...”–Ayrton Senna, ‘92

 

[R13]

“When you go into this sort of electronic war,.....The electronics do a given situation, and no matter who you put in the car, the electronics will do the work and not the driver. and I don’t think that is really what you want to have...”–Ayrton Senna, ‘92

Context police: He was referring to traction control and active suspension on a (Williams) Formula 1 car....not ABS on a street car :tongue:.

Also, I'm entirely comfortable with the fact that I'm not Ayrton Senna, nor do I have his skill, and I appreciate the fact that a functional ABS system lets me practice threshold braking and compressing my braking zones with an electronic-assisted margin for error (it's only on if I'm doing it marginally wrong to begin with). I don't use TCS on the track and I'm not about to buy a GTR.

That said, if I were going to delete my ABS, i'd try to model your setup, it's really nicely done.

 

[Mac Attack]

Yeah - I was just throwing that quote out there.:wink:

Personally, I think the development work syndicate is doing holds the most promise for us owners with the old ABS.

Ultimately, the ~$300 of components I used to delete my ABS could have easily gone to 1/4 of the cost from retrofitting another Honda ABS setup.

As a side note - I did tell my auto insurance company agent (Allstate) that I had removed the ABS from my car, and if that would affect the premiums (since they do or used to give discounts to cars with active safety features). They looked at me with a blank stare at first... but then did some follow-up on their own and said it wouldn't affect my rates. I know I willingly removed a safety feature from my vehicle, I'm OK with the risk increase, but I wanted full disclosure to my insurance company.

My $0.02.

Dave

 

[davidf]

Have you considered building these and selling them to us. I'd like to 1st on that list.

Yeah - I was just throwing that quote out there.:wink:

Personally, I think the development work syndicate is doing holds the most promise for us owners with the old ABS.

Ultimately, the ~$300 of components I used to delete my ABS could have easily gone to 1/4 of the cost from retrofitting another Honda ABS setup.

As a side note - I did tell my auto insurance company agent (Allstate) that I had removed the ABS from my car, and if that would affect the premiums (since they do or used to give discounts to cars with active safety features). They looked at me with a blank stare at first... but then did some follow-up on their own and said it wouldn't affect my rates. I know I willingly removed a safety feature from my vehicle, I'm OK with the risk increase, but I wanted full disclosure to my insurance company.

My $0.02.

Dave

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Any updates on the kits using other abs systems like the integra units and any update on people deleting and testing their abs?

 

[Rope]

Liftnot is making some and should have his site up and running soon.

 

[stuntman]

ABS systems are programmed for the specific weight, tire sizes, Cg, wheelbase, and suspension design of a specific car. While the NA1 abs was crude, I would be interested in seeing if a different cars system would equal or better an archaic system designed for the nsx. IMO the 2nd gen nsx abs is quite good and designed for the car.

Unless you can reprogram the module like Teves Mk60 does on custom programming the E46 M3 modulator for any car, you could potentially wind up with a mess.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

ABS systems are programmed for the specific weight, tire sizes, Cg, wheelbase, and suspension design of a specific car. While the NA1 abs was crude, I would be interested in seeing if a different cars system would equal or better an archaic system designed for the nsx. IMO the 2nd gen nsx abs is quite good and designed for the car.

Unless you can reprogram the module like Teves Mk60 does on custom programming the E46 M3 modulator for any car, you could potentially wind up with a mess.

Well those are all things people tinker with so I'm not sure if they're even factors anymore if you're talking specifics.

- Weight a lot drop as much as 200-300 pounds
-Tire sizes "most stay within ratio's
-CG tends to be lower by 1-2 inches
-Wheelbase stays the same
-Suspension, "can be all over the place depending"

Although I'm sure both systems were designed specifically for the nsx most owners that are going to do something like this with the abs system have done a good amount of modifications to their cars and are straying away from what honda originally designed.

 

[stuntman]

The above mods aren't huge when going to a 2nd gen nsx abs system. However if you take the module from any other car (Integra, S2000, etc...) , without reprogramming it, the program could be way out in left field and may not adapt to the nsx platform well.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

The above mods aren't huge when going to a 2nd gen nsx abs system. However if you take the module from any other car (Integra, S2000, etc...) , without reprogramming it, the program could be way out in left field and may not adapt to the nsx platform well.

True, I'm sure there's some kind of sequence with abs and technology in the newer units.

Now what's your opinion on the older units vs no unit at all.

 

[stuntman]

Its surprising the technology, algorithms, and what goes into abs programming. Any aspect affects the abs',thought processes and performance.

That's a tough one. I had a few instances where the first gen could have caused me to crash if there was a car in front of me. Especially in the wet. I couldn't give a safe recommendation either way, so instead I'm retrofitting the 2nd gen system on my car which is pretty darn good.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Its surprising the technology, algorithms, and what goes into abs programming. Any aspect affects the abs',thought processes and performance.

That's a tough one. I had a few instances where the first gen could have caused me to crash if there was a car in front of me. Especially in the wet. I couldn't give a safe recommendation either way, so instead I'm retrofitting the 2nd gen system on my car which is pretty darn good.

Damn Billy, thanks for taking the easy way out and doing the 2nd gen system :biggrin:

Let me ask you this since it happened to me months ago. I THINK it involved braking.

On a cold day I took my car out for a spin "sub 20's". Tires are Dunlop ZII's. I was driving and hit probably triple digits and slammed on the brakes pretty hard. Not enough in my mind to lock them up but enough to slow down pretty quickly. Well I was slowing down but my car started to stray left into the other lane. I had no control really because if I were to turn the wheel more back toward the other direction I was thinking the car would go in a spin? I strayed probably for 3-4 seconds and was 75% over the center line before I regained control.

Is that the abs? My tires? The road? Or what?

I'm not sure if my abs works since my cars to loud to hear anything, but I did NOT feel any pulse in the pedal. Also in this event my car felt kind of lofty "but that may have been the out of control part, I forget" but did not make any type of brake skidding noise either.

 

[stuntman]

1st gen abs? If so, you WILL feel an intrusive pulsation on the brake pedal. As far as the sway, it could be crown in the road, road conditions, alignment, bushing problems, calipers sticking, etc...

Take the car to a safe location, go 40-60mph and slam on the brakes until it locks or abs engages. Also see if you have the same pulling to one direction issue under braking.

Its not a bad idea to engage abs once and a while to cycle/exercise the abs pumps of any car.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Gotcha. I'm going out on a limb and saying it just doesn't work... It never pulls under braking so I'll assume it was the road but I'll see in a month or so when I get back up north.

I think I exercised my abs once in the past 8 years...

 

[stuntman]

Try the above test. Mine started to freeze and after exercising it a bit it started to work better, still too intrusive and IMO dangerous, but better.

 

[robbiedawg]

You never need ABS, until you do.

another +1 for this. i've been rereading this old thread since Sduff linked to it on a newer ABS thread. i have the upgraded year 2000+ system from sos,and yes it's expensive, but it may have already paid for itself. i pulled out in front of someone, he hit the brakes and the horn, and i was able to slam on the brakes hard and steer away from him because of the functioning ABS. this is the only time i have had to use it in 8 years of ownership (though i used to exercise the old system when i had it), but that little bit of extra steering it allowed may have been the difference between a wreck and a close call. just food for thought.