shawn110975
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I agree nice job, I want to do something with my stock shit as I have grown away from it now.
I am sure its gonna sound pimp.
I am sure its gonna sound pimp.
You guys won't believe this. My stereo install.
- Thread starter TURBO2GO
- Start date
Nice work Dave! How powerful does the amp need to be and how small / intergrated can the install of the amp be? I'll PM you about the adapters, etc. I was going to integrate an 09+ OEM stereo from a TL but I think the quality will be better with your option. I may have to retain the center speaker for Navi voice out but the rest I'd rather go your route.
Hey lithimius, I am not sure I understand your question about the amp. Here is the thing with the NSX. The car is loud, your noise floor is high. Take the targa off, remove the engine cover, install and aftermarket exhaust which most have, and it gets real high. So you need to increase the output by roughly 6db, meaning you now need 4x the power you needed before.
Also, when you use high excursion drivers like I am using, they need more power naturally. I've driven that little 4" with close to 90 watts of a Crown K2 pro amp, and it has sucked it up! Mind you it is producing bass at that point that I am feeling, but it likes it!
The amp I am personally using is a JL Audio XD600/6. 2 channels into the woofers, two channels into the tweeters, and possibly two channels bridged into the sub, and I am still short at least one or two channels as I would like to drive two centers, one up front, and the rear factory center. You can always bridge channels. I would not worry about the audiophile "higher distortion" you get when bridging, that kind of nuance will never be heard in an NSX. So I am recommending a 6 channel class D amp. What I like about the JL besides its quality is its ability to run a separate volume knob that can be assigned to any or all channels.
So I took the Bose subwoofer out today finally, and really looked around at its surroundings.
This is the only speaker I think somewhat acceptable aftermarket solution exists for now, although I clearly see some problems with that too.
So you can get a pre-made box in there. The problem is that you are then essentially talking about a system that is somewhat out of balance. There is too much of a transition gap between the door speakers and something like a 10" woofer. These 6.5" door speakers on plates are basically only producing midrange. Turn off your sub and see. You're then transitioning to a speaker that isn't really happy producing notes much above 100 Hz. There is, without the cabin effect which can exaggerate this, most likely a gap between 300hz and 80-90 Hz where the sub is taking over. So you can definitely get boom, but you aren't going to get "depth".
If a sub is too large for its enclosure space, you're not going to get deep bass. Often an 8" can put out much deeper bass than a 12" if the enclosure is simply right for the 8 and too small for the 12.
I also looked at all the wires there and what is involved in moving the EPS module, and I lost some more enthusiasm for yanking all this out, cutting mounting tabs, then sticking this massive heavy box in the footwell. This is the kind of "enhancement" that degrades the value of a car, and why everyone wants OEM when they buy a used car.
What I didn't know from photos is that the Bose driver angles back away from the front aluminum plate. It is somewhat time aligned with the port, and both concentrate on firing the bass energy up and away from the carpet. It goes up into the dash.
The carpet, and floor mat, are a real issue here. These aftermarket boxes fire into carpet. While the lower notes probably pass fine, as the frequencies increase, they are more and more damped by what is essentially a huge filter in front of the woofer. I personally am not about to cut my carpet back and tell the passengers to not worry about putting their heels on the subwoofer grille.
So the more I looked at it, the more I realized an OEM type solution is probably best here. I took apart the Bose box, and removed the amp out of there. It's like a cracker jack toy. I cannot believe this thing puts out any more than perhaps 15 -20 clean watts and it probably has negligible current capability. Heavy EQ is what it is relying on. The "subwoofer" is a 3.5" Bose driver.
The enclosure itself has more internal volume than the door units. I think I can mate a 6" sub in here and make it sound really good. A real nice blend with the mains. Seamless. And from what I measure real quick, I can get it down to 40hz or so. PLENTY in an NSX cabin.
I've been looking at various epoxies and coatings to strengthen these enclosures. I am going to add some bracing in specific areas. If I go ported, the stress on the enclosure is much less. I'm kind of excited by what I've seen so far though. I'm going to go more for sound quality here and an OEM fit than sheer SPL. I don't need to blast my neighbor out at a stoplight. What I want is tight, controlled, deep, non-boomy bass that won't go to zero when the windows come down or the targa comes off.
There is something else few pay attention to. We are working with very tight and small enclosure volumes. We are measuring 0.35 cubic feet for the boxes that don't take up even more valuable passenger space, then we are taking away 50% of the available volume by throwing in this massive 10 or 12" driver. These drivers, like the earthquake or the hertz subs are not small in the amount of volume they take up. It is no less for a "flat" sub, it is just a different shape. In all, without offending anyone, I will say that most of these drivers are just not getting the volume they need and so you are winding up with loss of an octave of bass.
Here are some photos I took of the factory sub enclosure for reference, since they really aren't available on prime. Notice the enclosures are ridged pretty tightly. Nevermind the Bose driver... For a light, thin, cheap to make enclosure, this thing is well designed. It even is thicker in some critical spots. Bose isn't stupid, they just didn't want to spend any money. They are cheap. LOL. I will fix that.
This is the only speaker I think somewhat acceptable aftermarket solution exists for now, although I clearly see some problems with that too.
So you can get a pre-made box in there. The problem is that you are then essentially talking about a system that is somewhat out of balance. There is too much of a transition gap between the door speakers and something like a 10" woofer. These 6.5" door speakers on plates are basically only producing midrange. Turn off your sub and see. You're then transitioning to a speaker that isn't really happy producing notes much above 100 Hz. There is, without the cabin effect which can exaggerate this, most likely a gap between 300hz and 80-90 Hz where the sub is taking over. So you can definitely get boom, but you aren't going to get "depth".
If a sub is too large for its enclosure space, you're not going to get deep bass. Often an 8" can put out much deeper bass than a 12" if the enclosure is simply right for the 8 and too small for the 12.
I also looked at all the wires there and what is involved in moving the EPS module, and I lost some more enthusiasm for yanking all this out, cutting mounting tabs, then sticking this massive heavy box in the footwell. This is the kind of "enhancement" that degrades the value of a car, and why everyone wants OEM when they buy a used car.
What I didn't know from photos is that the Bose driver angles back away from the front aluminum plate. It is somewhat time aligned with the port, and both concentrate on firing the bass energy up and away from the carpet. It goes up into the dash.
The carpet, and floor mat, are a real issue here. These aftermarket boxes fire into carpet. While the lower notes probably pass fine, as the frequencies increase, they are more and more damped by what is essentially a huge filter in front of the woofer. I personally am not about to cut my carpet back and tell the passengers to not worry about putting their heels on the subwoofer grille.
So the more I looked at it, the more I realized an OEM type solution is probably best here. I took apart the Bose box, and removed the amp out of there. It's like a cracker jack toy. I cannot believe this thing puts out any more than perhaps 15 -20 clean watts and it probably has negligible current capability. Heavy EQ is what it is relying on. The "subwoofer" is a 3.5" Bose driver.
The enclosure itself has more internal volume than the door units. I think I can mate a 6" sub in here and make it sound really good. A real nice blend with the mains. Seamless. And from what I measure real quick, I can get it down to 40hz or so. PLENTY in an NSX cabin.
I've been looking at various epoxies and coatings to strengthen these enclosures. I am going to add some bracing in specific areas. If I go ported, the stress on the enclosure is much less. I'm kind of excited by what I've seen so far though. I'm going to go more for sound quality here and an OEM fit than sheer SPL. I don't need to blast my neighbor out at a stoplight. What I want is tight, controlled, deep, non-boomy bass that won't go to zero when the windows come down or the targa comes off.
There is something else few pay attention to. We are working with very tight and small enclosure volumes. We are measuring 0.35 cubic feet for the boxes that don't take up even more valuable passenger space, then we are taking away 50% of the available volume by throwing in this massive 10 or 12" driver. These drivers, like the earthquake or the hertz subs are not small in the amount of volume they take up. It is no less for a "flat" sub, it is just a different shape. In all, without offending anyone, I will say that most of these drivers are just not getting the volume they need and so you are winding up with loss of an octave of bass.
Here are some photos I took of the factory sub enclosure for reference, since they really aren't available on prime. Notice the enclosures are ridged pretty tightly. Nevermind the Bose driver... For a light, thin, cheap to make enclosure, this thing is well designed. It even is thicker in some critical spots. Bose isn't stupid, they just didn't want to spend any money. They are cheap. LOL. I will fix that.
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Sorry I wasn't very clear about the amp. I was trying to figure out if you were using the stock wires that were carrying low level to send speaker level output and use adaptors / connectors to mate with the OEM connectors in the doors.
If you are intending to power the tweeters separately, I can see that you'll likely need to run speaker wire through the doors. I've done it through the OEM grommet (not on the NSX) and it's a real pain but the result of course is complete OEM stealth (which is what I'm always after).
You might want to consider matching up with a high end crossover like an MBQuart Q or something like that. Use the crossover to normalize the impedance of the woofer and tweeter and distribute the power through 2 channels to both speakers rather than 4. Tweeters usually don't consume much power so putting the woofer and tweeter in parallel with a crossover might be a much more efficient use of power. Something to consider. You also would not have to run an extra pair of speaker wires to the doors. Run one pair to the door. Mount the crossover in the door and the tweeter wire can all remain in the door.
For a JL amp, I personally would use a XD500/3 and keep it simple. 2 main channels plus sub. I'd get a cheapo super mini amp to drive my Navigation speaker / center.
Keep up the great work man!
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There are several issues with what you are suggesting:
1) You are at the mercy of the passive crossover. Sometimes moving the Xover point up or down does wonders for the sound, helping with room correction (the cabin), and also time aligment. Rather than EQ'ing, and introducing more phase shift, you can vary the X-over point and smooth things out. So you are losing this very critical tool, and relying on an Xover someone designed for a one-size fits all. You may get lucky and it may turn out OK, but it's far from ideal.
2) From my tests, the best tweeter locations (top 2) are not anywhere on the doors. One happens to be on the top furthest corners of the dash, and the other is next to the door speaker but inside the car on the lower dash near the kickpanels but a bit futher up. Since this happens to be, there is no point in re-wiring the doors at all, it is actually very easy to feed the tweets from there. Your X-over resides inside the car, not in the door exposed to the elements and a CONSTANT slamming.
3) Even if the Xover was perfect, I lose the ability to EQ or adjust levels. So that puts you on the hunt for two drivers that "match", rather than allowing you to select the best drivers for the money and then matching them by X-over point, EQ, time alignment, and level matching.
The tweeters I am considering actually take quite a bit of power, so I can't say the 50-75 watts of clean power provided by an amp is overkill for them. Right now I have a Scanspeak, an Audax, a HiVi, and a Vifa that I am playing with. Some of these are used in speakers that sell for $5000+. But the part comes to me at $60-100. It is incomparable to the compromise you get when you buy some rather overpriced system from a car audio manufacturer.
So if we were running in the doors and passive with no sort of processing and a pre-matched system, then the JL 3 channel would be fine. In what I am doing, I can really use 8-10 channels. But will make do with 6.
By the way I have a JBL SMAART-Pro that I am taking measurements with, I also have a DBX analyzer, and I also have a JBL MS-8.
My hope with all this work is to come up with a well-designed system that anyone can install, with OEM fit and finish, little to no cutting, using high-end drivers and getting great sound. Once I know all the X-over points, levels, and EQ settings, I can have anyone else with something like an Audiocontrol piece replicate it. I can make a kit of baffles, drivers, crossover/EQ already all preset, amps, with instructions. It can be installed in 1/2 a day by an amateur and probably sound better than systems that cost 5X the money.
See most installers and car stereo sellers are in the business of selling parts. You can't make money selling an Audax tweeter for $60. So they sell a "high-end system" and if doesn't sound so good in an NSX cabin, well too bad. Most people don't have a point of reference anyway. Have you seen where door speakers mount? They are so far burried inside the door pointing towards your shins it's not even funny. It's only with my baffle that I was able to correct the angle. What good is a "Hertz" woofer 6" into the door firing off the back panel?
1) You are at the mercy of the passive crossover. Sometimes moving the Xover point up or down does wonders for the sound, helping with room correction (the cabin), and also time aligment. Rather than EQ'ing, and introducing more phase shift, you can vary the X-over point and smooth things out. So you are losing this very critical tool, and relying on an Xover someone designed for a one-size fits all. You may get lucky and it may turn out OK, but it's far from ideal.
2) From my tests, the best tweeter locations (top 2) are not anywhere on the doors. One happens to be on the top furthest corners of the dash, and the other is next to the door speaker but inside the car on the lower dash near the kickpanels but a bit futher up. Since this happens to be, there is no point in re-wiring the doors at all, it is actually very easy to feed the tweets from there. Your X-over resides inside the car, not in the door exposed to the elements and a CONSTANT slamming.
3) Even if the Xover was perfect, I lose the ability to EQ or adjust levels. So that puts you on the hunt for two drivers that "match", rather than allowing you to select the best drivers for the money and then matching them by X-over point, EQ, time alignment, and level matching.
The tweeters I am considering actually take quite a bit of power, so I can't say the 50-75 watts of clean power provided by an amp is overkill for them. Right now I have a Scanspeak, an Audax, a HiVi, and a Vifa that I am playing with. Some of these are used in speakers that sell for $5000+. But the part comes to me at $60-100. It is incomparable to the compromise you get when you buy some rather overpriced system from a car audio manufacturer.
So if we were running in the doors and passive with no sort of processing and a pre-matched system, then the JL 3 channel would be fine. In what I am doing, I can really use 8-10 channels. But will make do with 6.
By the way I have a JBL SMAART-Pro that I am taking measurements with, I also have a DBX analyzer, and I also have a JBL MS-8.
My hope with all this work is to come up with a well-designed system that anyone can install, with OEM fit and finish, little to no cutting, using high-end drivers and getting great sound. Once I know all the X-over points, levels, and EQ settings, I can have anyone else with something like an Audiocontrol piece replicate it. I can make a kit of baffles, drivers, crossover/EQ already all preset, amps, with instructions. It can be installed in 1/2 a day by an amateur and probably sound better than systems that cost 5X the money.
See most installers and car stereo sellers are in the business of selling parts. You can't make money selling an Audax tweeter for $60. So they sell a "high-end system" and if doesn't sound so good in an NSX cabin, well too bad. Most people don't have a point of reference anyway. Have you seen where door speakers mount? They are so far burried inside the door pointing towards your shins it's not even funny. It's only with my baffle that I was able to correct the angle. What good is a "Hertz" woofer 6" into the door firing off the back panel?
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The aluminum footplate is definitely an integral part of this subwoofer. I have it off the car and on my bench with the sub and the frequency response changes completely with it on and off the front of the sub. Much more than I expected. Whatever I design will have to take this into account. I'm waiting for a driver to arrive to see what can be done with it and this box.
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its well written. a bit on the techie side but id say someone with a moderate level of understanding of car audio can follow along no problem.
im sure many on prime will follow suit re your approach in many ways when this project is all finished.
im sure many on prime will follow suit re your approach in many ways when this project is all finished.
Dare I say "kit" and "group buy"? Nice work.
Do you think people would be interested in a kit of some sort? Something that comes in several grades and versions? Like a high end one with full digital processing and alignment, a medium one using tuned analog components, and a basic 3 channel one?
I'm going pretty far with this, by the time I'm done with the "ultimate" version it might have 12 drivers in it... Without cutting the car. Without weighing more than the factory system. It'll be concert hall but still not as expensive as what many have spent on their systems.
I guess I'm surprised because there are few questions or replies to the thread. I don't know if people just aren't interested, or if they are lost in the tech talk, or of they are in fact silently following.
I'm going pretty far with this, by the time I'm done with the "ultimate" version it might have 12 drivers in it... Without cutting the car. Without weighing more than the factory system. It'll be concert hall but still not as expensive as what many have spent on their systems.
I guess I'm surprised because there are few questions or replies to the thread. I don't know if people just aren't interested, or if they are lost in the tech talk, or of they are in fact silently following.
Hey man, I completely get where you are coming from and love the direction you are taking. Back in the day I was using an ECM8000 with my Audio Control components and a software based RTA when I tuned the EQ on my cars. I still have an Audio Control HPX which I plan to use in the NSX. I ran it with the OEM TL head unit with NSX OEM speakers and it did some amazing things with the soundstage.
I love the break away from convention that you are going after and it will benefit the NSX community in big way. I feel the same way about audio installers and what the car audio industry has to offer for aftermarket. Having a tailor made audio system for the NSX with premium components at a low cost with OEM fit is something that most of the purists and enthusiasts are looking for. I'm definitely in that camp which is why I stick to OEM as much as possible.
I'm following this to see where you end up. For me, I definitely want something basic but of course married with your discoveries, I think you will open the doors to customizations. I find that kits tend to corner you into a specific solution but I think your initial focus on the 4 main cabin speakers will give people a place to start. Then as you continue your journey to add more speakers and create that soundstage... as long as there are options for people to add to the system, they can start basic and hop on the ride with you to Nirvana!
I love the break away from convention that you are going after and it will benefit the NSX community in big way. I feel the same way about audio installers and what the car audio industry has to offer for aftermarket. Having a tailor made audio system for the NSX with premium components at a low cost with OEM fit is something that most of the purists and enthusiasts are looking for. I'm definitely in that camp which is why I stick to OEM as much as possible.
I'm following this to see where you end up. For me, I definitely want something basic but of course married with your discoveries, I think you will open the doors to customizations. I find that kits tend to corner you into a specific solution but I think your initial focus on the 4 main cabin speakers will give people a place to start. Then as you continue your journey to add more speakers and create that soundstage... as long as there are options for people to add to the system, they can start basic and hop on the ride with you to Nirvana!
Keep up the good work Turbo.
Although there may not be many inputs here, lots of people may be reading this on the sideline (like I was) without any reply. :smile:
I'm very interested in your stock oem subwoofer replacement thing-a-ma-jig:biggrin:
Although there may not be many inputs here, lots of people may be reading this on the sideline (like I was) without any reply. :smile:
I'm very interested in your stock oem subwoofer replacement thing-a-ma-jig:biggrin:
Curious to see how this turns out. But how can you personally compare it to anything other than your stock system? I've heard some really nice systems built by members who pioneered what is being sold today (double din center consoles, flush subwoofer enclosures, etc.), and I can't imagine a system using stock enclosures and small sized speakers could compete, at least not in sound quality with high volume and bass.
That said, however, I think what you're building is what most people will want - much better than stock without adding weight and complexity. Most people don't want or need the rest of the world to hear what they are listening to.
That said, however, I think what you're building is what most people will want - much better than stock without adding weight and complexity. Most people don't want or need the rest of the world to hear what they are listening to.
I'm interested in how you are going to do this. Reading the params from MS-8 may prove to be difficult.
As it stands... once you set the Xovers/slope. You can't even recall them. Makes tuning a pain in the butt without a pen or pencil.
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Mike the thing is that I don't really need to hear a bunch of NSX installed systems to know what is proper audio and what isn't. The current systems, current packages, have some pretty major flaws. Can they sound good anyway? They can... if you take up a bunch of room, add a bunch of weight, go through a really complex installation, and spend a lot of money.
You are saying my drivers are small, but I would like to hear one 6.5" driver installed in an NSX door that will even remotely match the bass response I am getting out of my properly-sized, properly-enclosed 4" driver. I already compared, a very high-end 6.5" long throw car speaker on an SOS door plate. Perhaps one of the best 6.5's I have tested actually, I was super impressed with its transient response and midrange clarity. Phenomenal cone. And this driver was better mounted that any others I have seen and sealed.
It wasn't even close.
Could I have made it better by adding another 8 pounds of Dynamat to each door in an attempt to cover every hole and make a box out of a door? Probably... would it then sound better than what I have now? No. Still, no. Midrange, 80% of what this speaker is responsible for, is directional. The factory speaker is already too far back in the door and at a bad angle. Take off your door panel and see the large piece of foam jammed above the driver in an effort to absorb the early reflections. It's bad. So throw on an SOS or some other door plate, and the driver sits back another 2" from the bad stock location. Remove a factory grille with a door panel and look for your aftermarket driver on its plate. It's in a tunnel. Seeing this is what made me look for different solutions. Aperidoc dampers on a 6.5".
As far as the sub, a 10" in a large enclosure that protrudes into the cabin might play louder. Will it play deeper with better sound quality? No. The actual airspace left in the non-protruding cabinet after something like the SWS10 is installed in there is absolutely miniscule.... really less than what that driver wants to see. The result is an exagerration in the upper frequencies, and an absence of the real deep notes. Now try mating that to a door speaker that is just not putting out much bass and what you get is uneven sound and an octave of missing response. I would bet that the subs with the full-sized enclosures that protrude into the cabin are probably much better in terms of sound quality. But they are mismatched to the car. It is more proper for the internal volume of a large sedan, not the tiny cabin of an NSX. You'd have to turn it way down just to get proper balanced sound.
I know all of this, because I understand audio. I don't need to hear it in an NSX.
I'm not saying I have a sub solution yet, I just have my thinking cap on and do a lot of investigating. I think Hal did a FANTASTIC job in making the Zetoolman sub box. The guy ruined his own car for the mould, and sells his boxes for a very very reasonable price. Angus makes nice boxes as well. I might do all of this and say "OK, no better sub than the existing models". I don't know. I just try different things, measure, and go forward. An earthquake SWS is 13 pounds without the box or hardware, I would guess close to 20 pounds overall.
My bass driver is 1.5 pounds.
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LOL... I will get a pen then...
thanks for the warning, that does kind of suck but I am not just relying on the MS-8. The SMAART Pro works well. I do also have a set of $35,000 Focal speakers in my showroom in a tuned acoustical space. So I have a real reference and I am pretty good with my ear.
An MS-8 is down to $400 some odd dollars. I paid $500 at crutchfield. If you take into account an EQ, an Xover, the amplifiers you might need that it already has, a line level adaptor, a volume control, this and that, you may well be up to that anyway. I'm just not there yet, but I will report back what I find.
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Can I come visit your showroom? :biggrin:
I am in the market for a new turntable and it looks like I will be getting the Rega RP1 because it was designed by an NSX owner (meaning we have the same taste in machinery).
Oh you are one of those analog guys... :biggrin:
My Focals are sold, they are going to a customer's house soon. Just awesome speakers.
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I am an everything guy. I buy SACDs and DVD-As and audio-only Blurays so maybe I am a crazy guy :wink:
Is Roy Gandy on here, anyway?
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Hey Dave, your answer is precisely why I have any interest in this thread at all, knowing that I won't be able to hear it in person. Given that you do this for a living (in the ballpark), and seeing that it can afford you a nice car and the ability to drastically overpay for your suspension, I can only assume that you really know your stuff. Or at least this stuff. :biggrin:
I will wait for the HD version of his finished system. I think that for someone who knows acoustics far better than my self, to offer up several versions of this system to replicate with instructions, would be invaluable to Prime.
I don't need the greatest system known to man but would appreciate to upgrade my OEM system while not having to carve up my Princess. I am following this build closely. Keep going.
I don't need the greatest system known to man but would appreciate to upgrade my OEM system while not having to carve up my Princess. I am following this build closely. Keep going.
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