What is Honda F1's problem?

[myopicpaideia]

What troubles me is they aren't improving at all through the season. This is a high mid pack team and they are finishing very poorly.

The drivers JB & RB are definitely driving the cars well. Ruebens seems to have found his stride in a Honda chasis now. They both qualify fairly close together and finish fairly close. The engines make good power and seem reliable. Their chasis is just brutal. I don't know how they built this with wind tunnel & CAD CAM analysis and still released this car!

It's good to see a tight race for the championship though! I also like seeing DC and Red Bull doing so well! BMW keeps getting better and better. This is the best F1 season in years. I just wish Honda was competitive. :redface:

It's not that the Honda Chassis isn't improving, it is that everyone else is also improving. This is not a stationary target! That said, the RA107, as NSXGMS says, is a doomed chassis put together by a team of Fukui's pals that shouldn't have been put in charge in the first place. The fact that Nakamoto has been retained at all with Zander appointment is a farce. Hopefully for next year Zander will have the true lead in the development of the brand new chassis (this year's just needs to be scrapped), regardless of his actual title. Here's to crossing my fingers on the RA108-09.

 

[myopicpaideia]

So the latest news is that Barrichello was, in his own words on global television, "...going flat out and I can't catch the Spyker!" last weekend at the Hungarian GP. So now Honda F1 was officially the SLOWEST car on the track during an F1 race. It can't get much worse than this, boys...:frown:

 

[Juice]

Yea, I heard that. Rediculous.

 

[lithiumus]

I shat myself when he said that...

 

[swbatte]

They may have been having additional mechanical/hydraulic problems we don't know about. Regardless, it is just getting rediculous now.

 

[Ponyboy]

I think we, as fans, have to come to terms with Honda F1 putting very little effort into any more development of the RA107. A polished sh*t box is still a sh*t box and no amount of extra wings is going to make this turd fly.

:frown:

 

[waldorf]

Could be worse, I suppose...

Seriously though... I guess at least our drivers get along with each other or at least a modicum of mutual respect.

I have faith that Honda will get it's act together eventually... They've been amazing before, they've sucked before, we'll be good again.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Honda 07: always good for a laugh

"...going flat out and I can't catch the Spyker!"

I thought that was funny on Sunday, but I'm still laughing 5 days later. ROFLMAO. I was in a similar situation in my last race; but at least I knew I personally had something to try and fix .........JB and RB personally don't.

I should be feeling their pain, but the embarrassment is so over the top, it's just too darn funny. Hmmmm, now that I think about it, maybe I should offer to ghost write some "Postcards from the Back" race reports for them. :tongue:

 

[NSXrunner]

This season is done. Heads in Honda F1 management need to roll. Dump the whole "green" motto. I say burn the rain forest, whatever it takes to get us competetive or win. :biggrin:

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: So Honda, what was your first clue?

"...going flat out and I can't catch the Spyker!" Well duh...........

Honda's wind tunnel is wrong
Finally, an actual admission of the obvious.

 

[myopicpaideia]

Amen to that! Wouldn't it be crazy if this is the "magic pill" that will solve the problems next year? I don't get it though...is the wind not coming from the right direction, is it not simulating certain conditions properly, or what? Anyway, that's a huge screw up, but at least it is something tangible to attack.

 

[swbatte]

So, with an improperly calibrated wind tunnel, the changes they make to make the car go faster could actually be making it go slower!

Let's hope that's all that is wrong. They have good drivers with good engines.

Please dear baby Jesus, give Honda a good wind tunnel. And let you with your pretty angel wings in heaven let the Honda engineers build a blessed chasis, that shines with your glorious baby halo light. Amen.

Pass the KFC.

 

[NSXGMS]

Re: So Honda, what was your first clue?

"...going flat out and I can't catch the Spyker!" Well duh...........

Honda's wind tunnel is wrong
Finally, an actual admission of the obvious.

Why are we hearing this from Barrichello?

 

[waldorf]

Re: So Honda, what was your first clue?

Why are we hearing this from Barrichello?

The itv article is here...

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40346&PO=40346

Nothing on the hondaracingf1 site... maybe they weren't prepared to reveal anything yet and someone caught Rubens off-guard..

 

[Ponyboy]

Please dear baby Jesus, give Honda a good wind tunnel. And let you with your pretty angel wings in heaven let the Honda engineers build a blessed chasis, that shines with your glorious baby halo light. Amen.

Pass the KFC.

Shake and bake! Shake. And. Bake. Shake and bake!:biggrin:

Read about the whole wind tunnel fiasco this morning and could only shake my head. Granted, most teams have "teething" issues with their new wind tunnels but this is ridiculous. These issues are worked out in the offseason before the new car even sees the inside of it. Something tells me Honda F1 needs to do some serious CFD sessions w/ the RA108 before it gets optimized in the new wind tunnel.

 

[NSXGMS]

Re: So Honda, what was your first clue?

The itv article is here...

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40346&PO=40346

Nothing on the hondaracingf1 site... maybe they weren't prepared to reveal anything yet and someone caught Rubens off-guard..

I don't know if I buy that explanation. I mean, it seems a little overly simplistic to me and all the sudden, all the problems are explained away? Hmmm...

I'm no wind tunnel expert but it seems to me that an instrument like a wind tunnel that has very bright, thorough people with engineering degrees from real schools who are trained extensively running it it would not get far being improperly calibrated without someone catching it, especially halfway through the season.

Couldn't they just stick a RA106 chassis in there and see what data the tunnel is spitting out? That would be the first thing I'd do. If the tunnel is telling you the RA106 is flawed but the RA107 is good to go you know the tunnel has problems.

Seems to me that if improper calibration of a wind tunnel could cause so much trouble the engineers would check, re-check and then check again if the thing is calibrated properly--especially after 1/2 a season where the car is mysteriously struggling. You would think Honda would have re-traced their steps and discovered this a long time ago.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Garbage in garbage out

I don't know if I buy that explanation. I mean, it seems a little overly simplistic to me and all the sudden, all the problems are explained away? Hmmm...

Well, on the surface, I'd tend to agree with you, but sometimes truth is stranger than fiction and to use another cliche, nothing is as simple as it seems. We're a long ways from understanding the iterative process of devleoping a car, let alone how the wind tunnel is used. As for how sudden, the aero problem has been the main bugaboo all along.

I'm no wind tunnel expert but it seems to me that an instrument like a wind tunnel that has very bright, thorough people with engineering degrees from real schools who are trained extensively running it it would not get far being improperly calibrated without someone catching it, especially halfway through the season.

Well, this might add a little background as to why there are no bright thorough people running the wind tunnel. The pilots parachuted, no, make that "were thrown" from the airliner last year.

At the bottom of this unbelievable scenario is mismangement of epic proportions. Honda has always done great things because one guy championed a cause and now it seems like an ivory tower committee is trying run this show. (This is also the reason we don't have a 2nd Gen NSX, JMHO)What did Nakamoto with a motorcycle background bring to this technically challenging constantly changing endeavor? He brought a hang it out there, let's experiment attitude that sent Willis and others down the road. But someone above him had to be very unconnected from the team to put him in there over Willis. To oversimplify it, corporate politics is largely to blame. And it's not getting any better soon.

 

[myopicpaideia]

You know, I have no idea why you would want to break up such a successful outfit by alienating everyone that got you there. And yet it seems to be the most common mistake in corporate management ever. A new jerk walks in to the CEO position at a very successful organization, and wants to bring all his pals, or others that think the way he does, into positions of influence. In the process he totally disregards the people that actually make the organization successful, and alienates everyone underneath them who respected and valued them, creating a mass exodus as we see here. Evenutally the CEO gets the can from the board, but not before the damage is done. I have a feeling that this whole rebuilding process is not going to be completed for the next couple of years, and don't expect Honda to be pushing back into the top two or three team any time soon, having read these stories.

 

[NSXrunner]

Yeah I agree with the statement it seems too easy to blame it on a miscalibrated tunnel. But you never know and we shall see how things turn out for next season. Because if that is the case than the current chassis is basically crap if it was designed based on the data from the dubious wind tunnel, and might need a major redesign for next year.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Problem, what problem?

Well, where's the screaming and shouting? Dang, the boys just doubled their points for the year. :wink: got 2 now. I'm sure the improvement was due in part to some decent aero progress even though Monza's high speed/low downforce demands de-emphasizes that aspect. We should know more this next weekend. Anyone got some new insight to our beloved team or have y'all lost interest?

 

[Ponyboy]

And Button said they could have done better (5th or 6th) if they could have gotten their front wing optimized.

Still a fan but it's hard to get excited when the privateer is doing better than the works team. Waiting for '08.

 

[enigma]

WOOHOO! A point is a step forward, lol. It's a start, for sure... Definately looking forward to Spa. If they can finish in the points two races in a row, I will be grinning from ear to ear.

And Button said they could have done better (5th or 6th) if they could have gotten their front wing optimized.

Still a fan but it's hard to get excited when the privateer is doing better than the works team. Waiting for '08.

'08's what I'm waiting for too, but it will be interesting to see how Honda concludes '07. If we begin to see improvements in the RA107, I fully expect to be the RA108 a competitor for "best of the rest," if not getting some podium finishes. Honda has the drivers to win a world championship, as Barrichello and Button are both absolutely phenominal drivers... Once they get this car sorted out, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them gives McLaren / Ferrari a run for their money. Wishful thinking, but I'm looking up for next year!! Both drivers are good enough to win a championship and deserve one... just always dealt the wrong set of cards.

 

[NSXLuvr]

2 poinits!!!! JB is was doing pretty good. I was hoping he would hold on to 7th.

Hopefully they are learning something that they can apply to next year.

 

[swbatte]

2 poinits!!!! JB is was doing pretty good. I was hoping he would hold on to 7th.

Hopefully they are learning something that they can apply to next year.

This is what Honda has come to. I was really enjoying cheering for podium finishes, but I guess it's a 100% improvement in their points! Now they have half as many as Super Aguri! :tongue:

 

[myopicpaideia]

And maybe if McLaren get's thrown out of the championship for next year, We can be the number 2 team again behind Ferrari...yeah! :biggrin:

Seriously though it was extremely heartening to see the car up in the top half of the field again, although I do think it was because of the low downforce setup. We'll definitely see what kind of actual progress has been made when we get to Spa this weekend...