Group Buy Variable Manual Rack - Feel a little F1 tech in your hands

[liftnot]

Thxgiving.....VR rack update

Happy Thxgiving Ya'll from the Bayou!!

Here is the proposed rack gain curve by MVO from 20:1(oem) on center to 14.46 at EOT. We included an invoice as well, as we collected $1475 from all the donation and P2F will make up the balance. Thank you for helping us completing Phase 1 of this project.

To re-cap:
1)the pdf file @ thread #208 , on page 5 & 6, the Y-yoke, the bearing will need to be replaced(due to wear) and the serration on the right side of the pinion has light surface rust thus nearly impossible to extract the perfect measurement due to reverse engineering. This is the part that goes into the steering column which requires a perfect match and alignment to avoid any play in the steering. A tricky task to do when reverse engineer a high precision part.

2)On page 10 of the pdf file(or in thread #230 ), Item #4 , 11, 17, 18, 21, 23, 25 should be replaced and getting some of the parts will be difficult if not impossible.

3) Phase 1 is complete. The oem rack will be re-assembled and return to Coz. Thank you Jim.

Moving forward:

1)The ball is in our(Prime) court. P2F and MVO think to make a complete new rack is the right solution as you can see there are way too many variables to consider and not in our control and the complexity of not able to locate all the parts or reusing the old parts will defeats the purpose of having a high precision VR rack which probably will make the end result questionable. As much as we like to save money, we are ruling out the option of reuse the oem rack. It seems more trouble than we can handle.

2)Economy of scale is the key for us. The manufacturing process will change based on the qty. which will lead to a lower cost. We don't have the magic number at this time as a new housing and internals will need to be designed.

3)Having a completely new rack allows the flexibility of keeping the oem rack for spare or when you sell your car, you can replace it with oem and sell the VR on Prime. People with EPS can try the VR rack as well as the manual rack will bolt on to the EPS cars.

4)The bottom-line, if you are on the fence, plz read the longer RE article above to see the benefits of having a VR rack. They explain it much better than we can.

5)For the RHD folks, IF we have enough sign up for the LHD, we can piggyback on all the LHD work to make it as feasible as possible for you.

We welcome any feedback and we will start the sign up for Phase 2 shortly to see how many are seriously pursuing this. If we don't get enough traction on this, your money for Phase 2 will be returned.

Oh, one more thing off topic,
While we are down by the Bayou, we visited Mezzo technology yesterday in Baton Rouge. Dr. Kelly was proud to show off the facility and all the cool project going on. We saw radiators and oil coolers for Ferrari , LMP1, Dallara, Indy cars. The water to oil cooler shown to us was a LMP1 and it was ~2" dia. x 8"L and it had to fit inside the existing Laminova housing otherwise it can be HALF the size according to the calculations. This new micro tube technology is very cool. Perhaps some day we will have one on our cars.
http://mezzotech.com/

 

[nsxvtecvtec]

Question: are they going to design a EPS unit for this new rack?

 

[jwmelvin]

As an EPS owner, I'm happy you are going with a full replacement rack.

Kevin's heat exchangers (Mezzo) are quite the thing. I still dream of one as an intercooler for my CTSC.

 

[liftnot]

Question: are they going to design a EPS unit for this new rack?

One step at a time. So far its costing us $2500 just for the assessment. We like to move on to Phase 2 and hope to make at least one proto so some of us can drive it and feel the difference. Its the only way to tell. We have never driven a mid-engine car with VR rack so its difficult to describe beyond the long RE article. At the same time, how can you not want a quick VR rack after reading that article. Perhaps Billy or anyone else can chime in. At this junction, we need a lot more people to sign up to keep the cost real for the LHD VR manual rack 1st. They don't have an EPS on hand but if we can't get enough interest, the EPS is not going to happen. To be frank, the oem 20:1 manual is fine overall but just very slow for a tier 1 sports car like ours. This is our chance to have a top steering rack specialist to make a VR rack to make this car even better and more up-to-date all around.

As an EPS owner, I'm happy you are going with a full replacement rack.
Its a highly precision part so a new rack is really the most sensible solution for all. MVO understands we want to keep the cost down as a car club but a part like this is asking for trouble as every existing rack wears differently and that is a big concern. A new EPS will be quite a complex project and we seriously doubt we will have enough economy of scale to make it happen.
OTOH, this part is discontinued for the oem manual rack (not sure about the EPS) and the oem rack at MVO show very minor wear after unknown miles.

Kevin's heat exchangers (Mezzo) are quite the thing. I still dream of one as an intercooler for my CTSC.

Indeed. Dr. Kevin is a serious thermo dude who went to Purdue and MIT. Its a game changer technology. The water-to-air heat rejection rate is astonishing. Sooooo efficient in a sexy tiny package. They are in a league of their own. When asked why the $$$$ kart radiator that nobody will buy, "it was a side project just to see if we can make one with machine parts from Asia and everything else local to keep the cost down." He suggested to start with an oil cooler as its a bit more "affordable" and the data is not too difficult to obtain compare to a radiator. He did show an intercooler for a turbo app and it just did not seem possible.

For now, we would like to continue move the VR manual rack project forward so we need more people committed to make this happen. Remember, the rack does wear after 25-30yrs of use and 20:1 is just too high for spirited driving.

 

[TURBO2GO]

So what now? We just wait?

 

[liftnot]

We just paid the balance to MVO and have no money left for X'mas shopping:redface: but we know the new VR rack will make a great X'mas present....someday.ok, Phase 2 sign up below: (no money needed until we hit the magic number = as many as we can to make this project feasible for all), any marketing SME willing to help to get the word out? This great chassis should use more current steering rack technology to make the car even better. It may take a while but we hope many will see the experience the positives.

Guys, lets do this. PM us IF & ONLY IF you want to sign up to keep this thread count tidy. Any questions or comments or suggestions please continue to post it here. Thread #256 will be the starting point for Phase 2. Help all of us to pass the word around to make this happen. This is not a bling but a serious, geneuine upgrade you can feel it all the time when you drive. If you enjoy sprited driving & plan to keep the NSX for a long time, this should be on your must buy list. So far we had ~65 for Phase 1. There are 6k+ registered NSX in the US alone and if we can get 10%(?), that will help to lower the manufacturing cost exponentially. The goal here is to make at least one proto(more pending on the sign up #s ) and have a local shake down session to feel it 1st hand.
The hard part is done guys. There are more positives than negatives of this part. We are in good hands with MVO. Now we need your participation to make this car even better.

1. liftnot 2. nsxtecvtec 3. -m- 4. BBVNSX 5. 91nsx85crx 6. jimminh 7. Xetronic 8. victorhwei 9. jones83 10. ediddynsx
11. Gary W 12. R0Y 13. Sduff 14. A_J 15. TrustJDM 16. v-tecpwr 17. BerzerkFury02 18. mailman1 19. R13 20. mochanges
21. Boostedtaco 22. Stillsittinlodo27 23. Ponyboy 24. nsxspdfreak 25. scammy

 

[nsxvtecvtec]

put me on the list.

thanks,

 

[-m-]

Why not, put me down.


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[BBVNSX]

+1 on the list!

 

[91nsx85crx]

Count me in as well!

 

[victorhwei]

Count me in as well!

Me too, thanks

 

[jwmelvin]

What does signing up at this phase mean?

 

[jones83]

Add me to the list

 

[liftnot]

Thx J.

Short ans.= to get to the magic number => so this project can have a higher probability to come to fruition. It is an inverse relationship between the # of sign-ups and the co$t/unit. We are planning a complete new manual VR steering rack not just the rack & pinion to eliminate all the OEM variables that can not be controlled.

Long ans. = Until we have all the interested parties signed, we then work with MVO to figure out the cost to make a proto(or more) for shake down purpose as it is the ONLY sure way to tell. Lets say if we can afford to make 4 proto, then we can pick 4 regions around the blue states or the red states:biggrin: so more folks can drive it. This is about the only sensible product development path in this case would work as we have no access to the engineering drawings nor a huge budget to do Alpha/Beta testing thus we need to go with the best vendor who are capable and willing to help to delivery a world class product 1st time around. If we don't have enough people, there is no point to call MVO back and we will go on to the next project...that would be a great shame JMO. From MVO pov, they are quite content not to take up a car club request as precision reverse engineering is quite tricky.

We are counting on folks who helped fund Phase 1 to continue, as for now, we do not have the numbers to make it affordable for anyone. It will be a great shame to let this go to waste since a new rack was proposed way back in 2007 by 710 from Belgium with lots of interests and that was before the VR technology. We also hope the well written, long RE article(contributed by greenberet) will trigger your desire to have a state of the art VR steering rack to make our driving even more enjoyable made by the best vendor in the world. We plan to drive our car until we kick the bucket and believe a quicker rack, a quicker VR!! rack will have more positives than negatives and we believe the learning curve won't take long to adapt.

IF we can pull this off, we will continue to help the RHD folks as well. MVO CMM'ed all the mounting locations so this new manual rack will bolt on to the later models replacing the EPS. IMO, how can we not want this cool technology that is race proven on an iconic car like the NSX. Do you think Ayrton will approve this as well if it was avail. back then? We hope some of you can see that we are doing this for the love of this car 1st as with all the product we offer. Its certainly not bling or a mod but a real valuable upgrade based on clever physics by MVO and race proven in recent times not back in the 60s.

P2F has other project on-going for the NSX so our funding must be carefully allocated otherwise we will crash and burn quickly in this industry. We just finished our 2nd yr. in business and thx to all who trusted and supported us. We are asking your help to make this product possible and we are not taking any short cuts knowing this part is very much a part of the NSX-package not just an add-on.

We are not marketing guys and this cheesy "marketing propaganda:redface:" in attempt to help those who are on the fence so the remaining time you have with your NSX is rewarded with the VR technology every time you drive slow or fast and this rack will be made by the best experts available today. 2 cars on this list we do not agree with but we did not write the article so.....whatever:smile:!

http://www.carophile.org/9-cars-that-are-closest-to-f1/4/

 

[ediddynsx]

I'm interested pending cost and being able to try it out.


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[Jinks]

I smell smoke...

 

[ediddynsx]

Maybe check your stove?....


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[Jinks]

Stove, check... Not on fire.
Sorry for sounding so cynical. It just sounds a lil pipe dreamy to me, If the nsx needs to be completely re-engineered, why not just buy a different car????? Why spend thousands of dollars chasing perfection that will never quench your thirst? Maybe I do not get it... Or maybe I am actually sane. Who knows.... Sorry for the thread jack but it just amazes me.;-)

 

[jwmelvin]

[MENTION=31260]Jinks[/MENTION], you have plenty of aftermarket parts on your car and each one required engineering.
[MENTION=4272]liftnot[/MENTION], it sounds like you want a bunch of us to chip in to pay for your prototype and then if that works we will be able to buy a rack through you that is made by MVO. If that's the case MVO should be able to tell us the price of the prototype.

 

[Jinks]

Yeah I guess you are right. Some folks go further than others I guess.

 

[stuntman]

I must admit that I too felt like the NSX's steering was subjectively slower than many other cars. I decided to look at the in-car videos of various cars around Buttonwillow raceway and compare their steering inputs to a few different NSXs of varying degrees of build. I took a screenshot of each car in two different corners at the point of their maximum steering angle.

The cars I looked at were:

-NSX - Mild build: My personal car: 235/40-17, 275/35-18 NT05 street tires, KW V3 coilovers, and NSX-R rear wing
-NSX - Extreme build: FXMD's record holding Time Attack car: 305/35-18 345/35-18 racing slicks, KW 3-way motorsport dampers, MASSIVE aero
-NSX - Moderate build: BellWilliam's car: 235/40-17, 275/35-18 NT01 R-comps, coilovers, big splitter and wing
-2015 Mustang GT - Mild Build

-S2000 - Mild Build: Stock Aero: 255/40-17 Dunlop ZII StarSpec, HKS Hipermax IV SP coilovers
-S2000 - Extreme Build: Evasive's record-setting Time Attack car: 275 street tires? and massive aero
-Lotus Elise - Moderate Build: Manly's record-setting Time Attack car with massive aero
-Lotus Exige - Mild Build: Relatively stock with Hankook Ventus Z214 tires



Turn 2 "Buttonhook" is one of the slowest (<50mph) corners that you'll find on any racetrack. It requires a lot of steering input at low speeds and while trailbraking can reduce understeer, the corner as an up-hill right at the apex that causes almost any car to understeer at the apex. This is a great corner to determine how much steering lock is needed in a technical and quirky haripin.

-All of the NSX's required ~180-degrees of steering input at the apex of this hairpin.
-The 2015 Mustang GT also required ~180-degrees of steering input.

-Both S2000s required ~160-degrees of steering input, slightly less than the NSX -by 20 degrees
-Manly's yellow Elise required the same ~180-degrees of steering input as the NSXs.
-The Exige required ~150-degrees of steering input, about 30 degrees less than the NSX. Keep in mind he was turning 2:03s, which was much slower than the rest of the cars in this group other than the Mustang doing 2:06s.

Turn 4 "Grapevine" is a pretty standard corner with very little camber/banking. I chose this corner because it does not require much braking or lifting of the throttle, so the balance and steering inputs aren't affected as much by differences in driving styles and trail-braking, and singles out the setup and balance of the car and the steering inputs needed.

-My NSX required ~95-degrees of steering input
-The FXMD NSX required ~100-degrees of steering input
-William's NSX required ~80-degrees of steering input - quite a bit less than the other NSXs.
-The 2015 Mustang GT also required ~80-degrees of steering input.

-The stock S2000 required ~75-degrees of steering input and was quite loose and oversteering through this corner
-The Evasive S2000 required ~80-degrees of steering input
-Manly's yellow Elise required ~85-degrees of steering input
-The Exige required ~55-degrees of steering input, about 40 degrees less than the NSX. Keep in mind he was turning 2:03s, which was much slower than the rest of the cars in this group other than the Mustang doing 2:06s.

I will let everyone draw their own conclusions on the difference of required steering input between the NSX and a cars like the S2000 and Elise/Exige which are considered to have very quick and responsive steering. The Elise/Exige are the only cars without power steering (like the NSX) but they also have much smaller wheels and tires, and the car is about 1,000lbs less than an NSX.

Keep in mind that the driver's inputs and setup/balance of the car does affect how much steering input that is needed. Which is why I took samples of moderate to extreme car builds, as well as varying levels of driver ability. Overall, I think the required inputs between all of these cars are very similar.


0.02

 

[liftnot]

^J. excellent point. MVO gave us the ~ cost for the rack and pinion(no housing) in thread #1 . but that number will change drastically pending on qty. It is not an efficient way of asking MVO to quote on 100, 200, 300, etc. as it takes time to figure this out and we are "on the clock" with them. Typical customers who use MVO know what they want and money is a lesser issue for them. Heck, we are "surprised" it cost us $2500 just for CMM plus the rack gain curve chart. But the Invoice is clear for all to see and we are not going to Cabo for X'mas holiday. We need to show MVO we are serious about this w/ the qty. to back it up. BTW, IF a proto is made, it most likely will be made of a less costly material as its for shake down/verification purpose so the one and only unit for P2F will have a short life. Even if this project doesn't take off, we are glad we connected with MVO & we'll just write it off as a loss and move on. At least all of us know we have an ideal source with MVO should a better rack is needed and the fixed 20:1 will wear over time and can use an upgrade. If no body sees what we see, oh well. Sigh! crack is cheaper.

Jinks is correct. It does sound crazy/stupid making new/strange parts for a 30 yr old car that is not HP related while sooo many go-fast parts already been made and sold with such a tiny market left of few folks who understands what we are trying to do instead of making bling and mods which are easier to sell while make a few bucks.

This is not the motivation making parts for this car for us thus project like this asking folks for $ seems "strange/odd". We already been accused of taking people's money and trying to make a parts just for us. Thats ok because they don't know us and we are not that kind of people.

When we were with the Nissan GTP program many years ago, we were very well funded. (The famous CT engineering was supporting the Camel Light program for Parker Johnstone). the premises were anything we design and make, it must be stronger/lighter/better than previous and it must do a multiple of things to improve the car constantly cuz the competition was hot and heavy thus the pursuit of championship/perfection many never guaranteed but we sure are gonna give our best shot. $ was no object. $1000 to save a pound was the norm without much needed justification. We can just pick up the phone and call the vendor like MVO and seeing the project thru with our design and accounts payable takes care the rest. We see zero value to make a fixed quicker rack as it surely be cheaper from other vendors. It will be just a mod.

We can't do that here. The first "trick" part we noticed on the GTP car was the bladed anti-roll bar and the physics behind it was clever. While the blade idea has been around for quite some time, we thought it would be neat to try to make a set for the NSX cuz everything else on the market was the one piece type which has been around since the '50s but the NSX was unique and special enough for us to make a set. It was our 1st product and it cost us $15k+ from start to finish of 25 sets w/o asking Prime for help. It was a lot of money for us and has its design limitation as well in order to bolt on to all years and We priced it so we can recover the R&D cost as similar part for Porsches(and others) from tarret costs way more. We are only two year old as a business and borrow money from the bank is tempting but not wise long term. Our good friend Shinoo, famous in the Lotus AM world has hit a serious glitch after 10 yrs. in biz so we need to take note esp. in biz unfriendly Calif.
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f3/sector111-moving-11-chapter-st-389201/index4.html

BTW, a set of properly valved dampers will certainly help the anti-roll bar thus waiting a set of Penske from EMI is worth it to us.

http://www.tarett.com/items/986-987...ion/986-987-981-swaybars~drop-links-/list.htm
http://provenwicked.com/product_detail.php?pid=MzE=&CID=OA==&VID=
https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-...racing-blade-style-front-sway-bar-kit/?pdk=AQ

Same with our pre-preg bumper beams of improving the PMI of this car while making the car 40lbs. lighter and more nimble. All these projects were done in the usa on our own R&D money just because we like this car and there are many things can be improved based on physics since its design in the later 80's, besides, they won't/can't make cars like this anymore and the alum chassis/suspension is still very good and stiff. The only new car we like to buy is the Alfa 4C and give it the same treatment but the production will stop after 2017 and only a few hundred has been sold in the US. We think its a killer deal at $60k with a carbon tub.
While some may think P2F parts are for racing only but in truth, it works on the street as well and definitely improves the pleasure of driving this car. JMO.

all things consider, thx all for taking time to read our thread and signing up but the long RE article is much more useful than our rant.

Thx Billy. obviously we haven't driven enough cars with different steering ratios to make useful comments but we sure want what the RE article said. 20:1 is just so last century for one of the best sports car ever made in our time.

 

[stuntman]

You can't look purely at the steering ratio without taking in to consideration the length of the steering arm on the knuckle. A new Audi R8 has a 17.3:1 steering ratio because its steering arm is short.

You can improve the steering response without touching the rack by drilling a new hole on the outer knuckles steering arm, thus making it shorter. For ever degree you turn the steering wheel, the wheel and tire will turn quicker.

 

[RYU]

That is a top notch, excellent analysis, i've seen yet on prime @stuntman. Probably the best of youtube to date! Thanks for taking the time.

This will be the only OT post i'll make on this thread out of respect for Tim. The 3rd NSX, @illwillem's car, has had front suspension geometry updates that isn't the same as a standard NSX. He and I just recently discussed this as I was picking his brain on his method for increasing front neg camber. He drew a nice sketch for me even I've driven Will's car but not extensively at all. I did notice a difference in steering feel but my 'feel' for the front end isn't as well calibrated as Billy's i'm sure.

Quoted from Willem:

I had an offset bushing pressed into the lower A-arm receiver uprights. I also decided to move the upper A arm where it attaches to the knuckle itself inward and back using an offset bushing in the upper hole. This allowed me to gain addtl camber if i needed it but mostly why i did it was to increase caster.

-hope you don't mind Will.

Still hopeful Tim can have a go at improving the steering of the NSX.

 

[stuntman]

None of that should affect the steering angle geometry. He just put in offset bushings which is common on NSXs to get more than -2* of camber out of the front end. Any differences in "feel" is likely due to the increased camber.

My comments on the knuckle was to put in an offset bushings or drill a new hole closer to the wheel centerline on the STEERING arm of the knuckle, where the tire rod (steering rack) attaches to.