Power to weight on its own doesn't tell a whole lot either, because although weight is weight, power is not power. We are just talking about peak HP. No one is talking about torque. Or how that power is delivered. If I have a peak power output at 7000 RPM's versus one that is there from 4000-7000 at the same rate, of course the second car will be faster. Look at the power band of a Comptech supercharger versus a centrifugal one like the basch. The Basch has a higher power output, but it's a narrow band at a peak. A CTSC has less, but it is much more broad. Power CURVE means a lot and it's not talked about at all everytime a power to weight ratio conversation comes up. A car with a superior power curve can be geared completely differently, and it will walk away from the car with the inferior curve everytime. Even though they have the same exact power to weight ratio. This is even more of a determining factor than aerodynamics. And we are just talking acceleration. Heavy is not good once you need to turn and brake.
V6 360 horsepower? Insider information?
- Thread starter Tangoman
- Start date
Come on now, that is chalk full of assumptions to finally get to a car that is faster than a GTR. :wink: I saw a friend 2 weekends ago who just picked up a GTR black addition in Blue and I took some time sitting in and admiring the car. I was able to do that because Nissan got off its lazy but and actually produced a real car with a motor and interior. Rumors of the new GTR are already circling, which means by 2015 the NSX will be playing catch up again.
Lastly, I am not sure Acura/Honda knows what it is doing from a sports car perspective. They may be doing it right from a marketing perspective but that is not the same thing in my book. Why do I want to carry around batteries? I hope Honda has a game changer planned and not some car that can compete with 2010 cars and be delivered in 2015. It needs to be ahead of its time like the original and shoot for 2020 cars. Time will tell.
The instant torque from electric motors will help quite a bit, but that is the only reason why I would want to carry around batteries.
Let's face it guys, the new NSX will probably sell as well as the original one.
Let's face it guys, the new NSX will probably sell as well as the original one.
As it stands now I think they will sell less but only time will tell.
Good. I don't want to see NSX's everywhere.
It will be a shame if a modded FI NA1 or NA2 beats a stock 2015 NSX around a track.
What use will the new NSX be if the batteries are depleted after one 20 minute track session? Then what? As for Mid range torque, how would the proposed NSX hybrid motors torque compare at 3000 rpm's vs what a Viper or GTR puts out? According to Automobile, the BMW M5 puts out 500+ ftlb's at 1500 Rpm's!
The real deal for the NSX would be a 9000 rpm TT 4.0 v6 with TI parts at 500hp, AWD all wrapped in a sexy 2850lb curb weight.
What use will the new NSX be if the batteries are depleted after one 20 minute track session? Then what? As for Mid range torque, how would the proposed NSX hybrid motors torque compare at 3000 rpm's vs what a Viper or GTR puts out? According to Automobile, the BMW M5 puts out 500+ ftlb's at 1500 Rpm's!
The real deal for the NSX would be a 9000 rpm TT 4.0 v6 with TI parts at 500hp, AWD all wrapped in a sexy 2850lb curb weight.
My point was that the 458 is overated based on dynos, but it still manages a very quick 1/4 mile. I was talking about the difference in its performance vs other cars with similar power ratings. The LFA (lighter edition) has similar power, weight and a larger engine. It is over half a second slower on the 1/4. The 458 obviously uses it's "560" hp more effectively than the 550 hp LFA. It takes more than a big engine with big hp to go fast efficiently.
The GTR weighs ~500 lbs more than both of those cars with 550 hp, but edges the 458 out thanks to the nice 4WD traction. If the new NSX is going to have a similar style powertrain while weighing ~700 lb less than the GTR, I think that it could lack ~100 hp and still sprint from standstill to triple digits like the GTR.
The NSX is technically going to be the first of its kind. You cannot say a Hybrid V6 cannot compete along the same lines as a V8 sports car as you would only be assuming right now. Your guess is as good as mine. It could go any direction depending on Honda's conviction and direction. Again, As long as Honda achieves an 11 second car, who cares what the "rated" hp is. Knowing Honda it's going to be conservative and hopefully, it should still handle very well and be competent on turns.
All of these discussion are redundant and have been beaten to death. This talk of 360 hp is quite low IMO as they is still barely 100 hp/liter and Honda is better than that, especially 20 years later. I think Honda feels the pressure that the new NSX needs to have more hp, but let's not turn it into an unrefined all power monster like the GTR. I would take a modern, NA 400 hp NSX that is on the equivalent caliber of design refinement and practicality of the original vs. something like the GTR, Vette or Viper.
I think the best questions that have been poised in this thread are how long the batteries will last and how fast they will recharge. The inner wheel and brake charging are nice, but how fast would it charge during coasting or idling? I reckon there would be a mode where you can shut off the emotors temporarily so they can recharge faster? I suppose they should keep kw output on the low side so that they don't drain too fast. I am glad the RLX will be the guinea pig first so they can get it right for the NSX afterwards. The news that Honda may make a conventional NSX again is also exciting. I think they actually may even sell more of that versions if they get the engine right.
Why is Honda against making a Turbocharged beast?
Amen! I don't know why people keep suggesting this high hp when clearly CLEARLY that's not the direction Honda has said they would go in. Anyone even thinking or hoping for this really needs to save for GTR , Vette or Viper as it's just not gonna happen with the next NSX.
I'd have to say that the leak about means that's something they must address. I hope Honda engineers pay attention to this detail in the Porsche 918
From what I've been reading on the Porsche and Ferrari hybrids the engine is still a crucial role. The RLX engine will not suffice in the NSX in it's present form and I agree 360hp doesn't show any type of advancement.
Because a turbocharged beast isn't green:wink:
Low sales figures means (in my opinion) they will let the model die out like they did with the first NSX rather than keep updating it. ie. if the first NSX had better sales figures, the 2002 update would have been the one to get the 360HP engine.
Well possibly, but I think Honda will be smarter about it this time. Last round they assumed the NSX would sell ~20,000 units worldwide within say 8-10 years? Instead, it barely reached that number in 15 years, so at the mark for a refresh they had to find ways to update it with modular changes since they were stuck with about 10,000 units still. The NSX held on well given its long tenure and only subtle updates, but I think this time around Honda will create a smaller production contract so that they can update it more frequently and achieve a much larger publicity than the original. In fact, they already have, but they must not lose momentum. I hope that by 2014 or 2015, the new NSX will be recognized by more women :biggrin: or not be mistaken for a Corvette, Lamborghini or Ferrari. Maybe the effect will trickle to the original too...
The whole notion of big hp numbers sells cars is true, but I do not think that Honda is trying to do that. They want an NSX that exudes the pinnacle of engineering and design aka refinement. The NSX really does represent a responsible and efficient business/car model. They want the publicity and accolades for this vehicle so they can reinvigorate the Acura and Honda brand, but not necessarily for direct sales to make them a profit. They expect the higher volumes of the lower models to do that.
I think the low sales numbers make the NSX even more special. If it were to sell in high numbers, which is not likely for a 100K+ vehicle anyways, I think that it would only dilute the NSX name. The whole history of the NSX makes it very much an anomaly in many areas as far as design, engineering, pricing, etc.
New automobile mag has the RLX at 3.5 l v6 at 310hp. 370 with the hybrids.
They should update it because it's the halo car and let the sales come from it being a good car. If you follow the history it is pathetic. They come out with the awesome car that breaks new ground, way ahead of its time. They saturate the market because it is a very limited market of buyers who will buy a car with basically a lousy name but good performance. I am saying "lousy" from the perspective of the Ferrari and Lamborghini buyer. They have to suddenly tell people their cool looking car is a lowly Honda.
So when sales slow they start ruining the car. They chop off the top to get the Mercedes SL customer. They add power steering.... they bring out an automatic version. They change the alignment specs so that pansies don't cry about tire wear. They soften the suspension. Then they add bug lights to it in an effort to modernize it. This isn't what the engineers envisioned. The car loses its identity, because instead of more power it has a Targa top. Sales dwindle. FAIL. Kudos to Shigeru Uehara (who doesn't get NEARLY enough credit for this car like Senna does but he did the work) and his team for building a spectacular car... to Soichiro Honda and others at the top for a dream to be realized. After that a bunch of bean counters took over is what happened.... and when they run the company they do things like give-away lease rates instead of saying "hey the car needs a real update".
Say what you will about Nissan, but the guys running the show have a focus and are kicking ass and taking names with car that gets better EVERY year. By 2015 it might have 800 HP and be launching out of corners like a Cheetah on cocaine.
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They should update it because it's the halo car and let the sales come from it being a good car. If you follow the history it is pathetic. They come out with the awesome car that breaks new ground, way ahead of its time. They saturate the market because it is a very limited market of buyers who will buy a car with basically a lousy name but good performance. I am saying "lousy" from the perspective of the Ferrari and Lamborghini buyer. They have to suddenly tell people their cool looking car is a lowly Honda.
So when sales slow they start ruining the car. They chop off the top to get the Mercedes SL customer. They add power steering.... they bring out an automatic version. They change the alignment specs so that pansies don't cry about tire wear. They soften the suspension. Then they add bug lights to it in an effort to modernize it. This isn't what the engineers envisioned. The car loses its identity, because instead of more power it has a Targa top. Sales dwindle. FAIL. Kudos to Shigeru Uehara (who doesn't get NEARLY enough credit for this car like Senna does but he did the work) and his team for building a spectacular car... to Soichiro Honda and others at the top for a dream to be realized. After that a bunch of bean counters took over is what happened.... and when they run the company they do things like give-away lease rates instead of saying "hey the car needs a real update".
Say what you will about Nissan, but the guys running the show have a focus and are kicking ass and taking names with car that gets better EVERY year. By 2015 it might have 800 HP and be launching out of corners like a Cheetah on cocaine.
Wait, don't you have the targa, pansy suspension NSX? :tongue: BTW, I think personally an NSX is NSX - as long as the condition is satisfactory) You say you don't want a bunch of NSXs around, but you knock them for failing at sales?
Sales for sports car in general fell turn of the century thanks to the big trucks and SUVs frenzy. All of the 90s sport cars dwindled in sales before the new millennium hit, so I wouldn't say Honda's lack of updates hurt sales - more like a shift in safety paranoia. The fact that Honda decided to run the NSX for 15 years worldwide is pretty grand and nice because the 300ZX, Supra, Rx7, MR2 and many other sports cars were short lived.
Props to Nissan for delivering a performance monster, but it still will never be as good looking or refined as even the 20 year old NSX design. Go buy Nissan if you disagree :wink: They still have not done the Z car right as they have dumbed and watered it down considerably to sell well. Also, I am still waiting for the Silvia resurrection since the FRS-BRZ and Genesis coupes are reviving the FR 4 cylinder market, but instead we get a damn Juke-R
I still don't see what the big fuss is about. There will be FI kits eventually for the power junkies out there whether the NSX has big or moderate hp. The GTR already has crazy performance, but there are people out there that are easily modding it to 800-1200 hp. Any car can be made fast one way or another, but I am much more interested in the actual car than how much hp it's supposed to have. The potential for power is fundamentally there if the chassis and interior are designed well and the engine is over engineered to be extremely reliable.
I have read some articles about this on Japanese magazines/websites.
Aside from reliability, weight, engine response, fuel economy, etc...
It has something to do with Honda engineers' pride.
They were talking about how Honda achieved NSX's 280ps with 3.0L V6 NA while Nissan Fairlady Z had 280ps with 3.0L V6 Twin Turbo.
Same goes S2000's 250ps with 2.0L NA while S15 Nissan Silvia had 250ps with2.0L Turbo.
*250ps = 247hp
*280ps = 276hp
Sure do. LOL... Girls like it better. Even though it's not as manly. Like being in touch with your sensitive side. :biggrin:
I knock them for a lack of updates. But yeah I don't want too many around for selfish reasons. I'm not just sensitive, I am also selfish. :biggrin:
True...
Unless the NSX has 02+ updates it looks a bit dated. If you go back to "20 year olds" then it's even more dated with the 15/16 and battlestar Galactica exhaust. We all love the NSX and I agree the GTR is not nearly as nice looking but let's not go overboard.
If I drop 120 for a car I don't want to have to "fix" it with a supercharger. Plus this will be a complex hybrid so modifying it will be no easy task. The computer will suddenly not like something and before you know it you are at the dealer's service department trying to explain yourself.
The driving experience. Of course. That is why I don't have a GT-R. It's a little too... automated. The NSX needs to deliver a top notch experience. The numbers don't matter. But if it fails there and the numbers suck too, it'll be the laughing stock of the automotive kingdom. The look is also part of the experience and at least in concept form it is ahead of the GT-R and IMO, the current R8. By 2015... who knows.
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Come on now, don't be a hypocrite :biggrin: It's either Honda did not update the NSX well or they actually did. You are saying the latest revisions are modern, but technically they were very subtle to moderate changes. The NSX remained aesthetically the same for 11 years before they slapped on new plastic to update the looks aka ground effects body kit.
Wheel stance = logistics. A simple 7/8 inch drop in suspension and some new wheels when the rear tread runs out will lose the signs of late 80s styling behind. Very minor mods like new exhaust tips would remedy your quirks if money is the argument. How many stock wheels look good and how many enthusiast actually sport stock wheels or exhaust? Even the 02 style are held back being being non-double-staggered. The only reason they are hot to rock is because they are so rare to begin with. The factory offset are still too sunken in no matter how great the design looks.
The design is still based on a 20 years old chassis and interior, but yet it still demands celebrity-like attention anywhere you drive it with people around. The GTR does the same thing because of its infamous performance and publicity, not because it is a sleek sports car. Every type of car person knows how fast it is and it screams power or Gundam Robot car. Otherwise it will just look like another Nissan coupe to a car-illiterate, where as the NSX will be noted by all as something very sensual.
I have no worries about the GTR or R8 beating the NSX in the looks department any time soon. This is not me being cocky or reppin Honda. I actually want Nissan or Audi to do it, but they probably never will. It is simply because the GTR is not going to get any smaller or sleeker. It will always be a saloon body type of car just like the M3. By default, it loses in the looks department because they are not the same type of cars. You would have better luck waiting for the MID4 rebirth from Nissan or Z32-like revision for the Z car. Audi or any German manufacturer will never make a sleek/low slung car, especially with today's trends. I would be heavily shocked if the new R8 looks like a classic exotic sports car. So far, they took the Gallardo platform and came up with a bloated frog
I would be more worried about the production model NSX growing in height or size due to very strict safety regulations - hopefully it will not. The majority of the NSX driving experience is because it is so low slung.
I think whether Honda decides to release a non-hybrid version or not, enthusiast will find ways to bypass, enhance or remove the electric engines and add FI options. I get it, you don't want to spend extra money on top of an already expensive car, but how many other choices do you have out there that will offer the complete NSX experience? Ferrari and McLaren are in another price league, but I firmly believe Honda is trying to deliver performance that comes close to them with their very own formula - part of which means more efficiency for performance and pricing. Besides that, how long will any enthusiast keep any car stock before the urge for progression bites. Even quarter million dollar cars get modded these days.
N Spec, I think you miss Turbo's point about FI modding on NSX 2.0 vs a GTR or any other high end sports car. Modding a GTR (Lambo, R8, etc.) for more power takes an already capable and competitive car to stratospheric heights. But having to mod NSX 2.0 to merely be competitive is not a selling point.
That is true, but that goes back to the discussion about the market segment and selling high numbers vs. creating/advertising/selling to secure brand image. I don't believe Honda intends for the NSX to sell high in numbers at all. I also think that they will be competitive with whatever market segment they choose to target. The is issue is that it has not been clearly defined. I think they are shooting for above V8 R8 performance levels. The GTR has so much performance and potency but it is not selling that high in numbers either for many different reasons.
Everyone wants the NSX to gun for GTR level, which really is not that far away but I would be satisfied with R8 level of performance, as long as it looks better inside and out - which would not be hard for the NSX to accomplish.
Come on now, do you really think the general public that can afford it really cares it is a Gundam Robot personified as a car with the rocket boosters and all? They want Mercedes fluffed safety features :wink: In the US, the GTR has sold ~500 units so far for 2012...
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/nissan-gt-r-sales-figures.html
Nissan is not exactly dominating with sales at that volume, but it is on its way to outselling the original NSX. I also suspect numbers fell when prices grew and are surpassing $100K. I think it is the NSX all over again, but this time on the other end with all out performance but no sex appeal/low refinement vs. refinement and drop dead looks with modest power. People want it, but don't want to or can't pay full price for it, so they play the wait game. It makes me wonder why so many have popped up for sale used considering the low numbers made and they are all still fairly new?
I hope the next NSX sells around the same volume if not slightly less. Making it just as special and rare.
Very nice comparison video. Hopefully reminds people of what Honda is shooting for with the 2.0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLJ2lw0bCkk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLJ2lw0bCkk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
WOW! That was an awesome video! is this posted elsewhere???
Hey, I love Gundam, just not GTR...lol
NSXSUPRA/Jason bought a GTR, he swear by it. I haven't seen him drive the Modena since the acquisition.
