Tracking the stock callipers
- Thread starter sparky
- Start date
My almost-all-stock '91 NSX is a weekend/track-day car too. I have the Dali deflectors and removed the rain (heat!) shields. I've used various pads- mainly Axxis and Hawk- and the car brakes fine for HPDEs, with little or no fade.
FWIW- I would spend any extra track $$ on suspension upgrades, esp. if you are running stock right now.
FWIW- I would spend any extra track $$ on suspension upgrades, esp. if you are running stock right now.
attached is a pic of the front and rear RB upgrade kit - 91 NSX upgraded to RB 324 mm two-piece rotors and RB Aluminum 4 piston calipers in the front and the 324mm rear rotor and OEM calipers in the rear. Enkei PF01 17/18 +45 offset both front and rear.
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Thanks
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that's because you aren't driving hard enough
stock brakes with track pads/fluid and some extra airflow are good enough for aggressive track use - barely. but if you bump the power output much above stock or use r-comps you may well run out of brakes.
that's because you aren't driving hard enough
+1 :biggrin:
I faded the Brembo white logos to gold in one year of tracking.
Guess I'm driving hard enough.
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The stock rotors/calipers were adequate for 30 minute sessions with Panther Plus pads, no ducting, 235/275 RE01-R tires I/H/E, and a passenger (3,300 total vehicle weight) at NSXPO this year for me. (going all out)
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interesting, i wouldn't have expected that. my car had zero problems when i ran RB oversize rotors but demonstrated mild fade when i went back to stock. it had an extra 20 or 30 horses too. of course, it also depends on track - some (such as cmp) are harder on brakes than others (mid ohio isn't too bad).
thats because you use the brakes only when you have to...unlike the rest of us wkend warriors:wink:
There is some truth to this. However, I think it isn't so much a function that Billy brakes "less" in the sense that he shaves less speed off when he does brake (because he's incredible and can take corners faster). That is mostly if not totally (and then some) offset by the fact that he is hitting the braking zones faster. It is more a function of how he is braking.
Assume a track with corners with straight braking zones and two drivers employing traditional/basic technique of braking just there (no trail braking). They both enter the braking zone at the same speed, lift at the same place. Driver A threshold brakes for a short period to get down to the necessary speed for the corner then gets off the brakes. Driver B starts braking sooner and brakes at 70-80% of threshold until he is down to the same speed. Driver B will fade his brakes more-quickly, use more pads, see BBK as more necessary, etc.
Then there also is the over-braking...where way more speed than necessary is removed...which certainly doesn't help either. I just wanted to point out that the same straight/corner speeds can mean very different brake performance/longevity due to braking technique alone.
I wouldn't necesarilly say that :redface:
EXACTLY. Contrary to popular belief (even many people at the club and even pro racing level), braking lighter and longer is NOT easier on the brakes. Reducing the brake zone by braking harder/threshold braking at the limit for a SHORTER period of time will have LESS rotor temperature, pad wear, fade than braking earlier, longer, and lighter.
This should have been brought up a lot sooner and emphasized. Sorry I didn't think about mentioning such a crucial piece of information, but good job picking up my slack!
Billy
I use the racing brake 2 piece rotors with Hawk hp plus pads dust sheilds removed, do 2 HPDE a year and a few autocrosses, have not had any brake fade but have a noisy wheel bearing, suspect it is due to driving in the rain and getting water in the bearings. So Once I replace my bearings I will be puttting the dust sheilds back on.
BTW, do you or anyone else understand the physics behind this? I know it from first hand experience, but what is happening to make it so is not necessarily intuitive / obvious upon first consideration (I can think of many reasons it is counterintuitive). In both scenarios the same amount of kinetic energy is being transfered into thermal energy...but when that work takes place over different periods of time the resulting component temps/wear/etc are different.
braking slowly over a long period of time gives the heat energy plenty of time to "sink in" to the rotor. very hard but brief braking makes the rotor surface extremely hot, the high delta T means that air cools it more effectively. good drivers also achieve maximum braking force very quickly when the vehicle is moving fastest so there's a lot of airflow to remove heat from the surface of the rotor, less experienced drivers tend to brake softly at first then ramp up the force which is the opposite of what should be done.
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That being said, I noticed when I went from Nito NT01s back to Dunlop Z1s that I couldn't just mash the brake. On street tires (running PFC01 & Brembo GT BBK) I had to squeeze the brakes, let the weight transfer forward and then mash the brakes hard. :tongue:
I don't want to start a whole new thread here but I was wondering will my car have very noticeable front brake bias if I just upgrade my stock 1992 system with Project Mu HC+ front pads but keep the stock pads in the rear? (everything stock)
Probably nothing worth measuring
I'm using Cobalt Friction Blue pads in the front of NA2 brakes and stock rear pads. So far so good just wish they wouldn't squeal every so often.
Probably nothing worth measuring
I'm using Cobalt Friction Blue pads in the front of NA2 brakes and stock rear pads. So far so good just wish they wouldn't squeal every so often.
You mean Hawk Blue? Hawk an Pagid are the only ones I know that have a pad called Blue.
Cobalt doesn't make a Blue. Their pads are XR1, XR2, XR3, etc. and Carbotech are XP12, XP10, etc.
BTW: The Hawk Blues are "old" technology hawks (the DTC line is newer), they squeal, the dust will eat your wheels if it gets wet and dries, and they will absolutely chew your rotor up if you drive them a lot cold. I use the blues cold to remove pad deposit build up and then switch back ~ that's how abrasive they are when you run them cold.
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Oh whoops.. was just talking to a friend about pads and got even my own confused.
I have the GT pads and so far I like them.
http://www.cobaltfriction.com/compounds/index.cfm?cid=2398
Si
Gold Member, Moderator: General Classified
The Project mu HC+ is a pretty strong pad compare to stock, with threshold braking your abs will kick in very often. I would change the rear out to something comparable if tracking is in the near future.
As for stock rotor/caliper, my friend took the heat shield out, changed to larger air duct, upgraded pads and fluid, we were able to do 30+min sessions without any issue at all. The stock cooling system however is another issue.
I am using NA2 brakes with RB 2 piece rotors, Project Mu Max900i pads, SS lines, Ate 200/Blue, and Porsche GT3 brake ducts on the front.
I haven't managed to get any fade with this setup yet, even on two of the most brake intensive tracks in the region, Hallett (was running 1:31s) and Eagles Canyon (was running 2:09s)
I was getting zero fade and was braking consistiently later than pretty much anyone else on the track, the instructors were complementing me on my braking and the cars braking ability. Although they did get hot enough to burn the caliper paint off, lol.
I'm only on Kumho XSs though, I can't speak to how well they would hold up on R-comps.
I haven't managed to get any fade with this setup yet, even on two of the most brake intensive tracks in the region, Hallett (was running 1:31s) and Eagles Canyon (was running 2:09s)
I was getting zero fade and was braking consistiently later than pretty much anyone else on the track, the instructors were complementing me on my braking and the cars braking ability. Although they did get hot enough to burn the caliper paint off, lol.
I'm only on Kumho XSs though, I can't speak to how well they would hold up on R-comps.
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Post #31
Si
Gold Member, Moderator: General Classified
RYU- your car was black with gray wheels?
As for RB 2 piece rotors, I have used them on track before and must say they aren't equivalent to stock. I think they look good, just not track worthy.
As for RB 2 piece rotors, I have used them on track before and must say they aren't equivalent to stock. I think they look good, just not track worthy.
I have to disagree whole hardily.
How are you defining track worthy? That they don't last as long as OEM before cracking? All rotors crack eventually. And OEM are once piece and they will not allow the expansion/contraction that any 2pc will. Any 2pc SHOULD outlast the OEM on the track.
I'm guessing that I probably have more actual track days on RB rotors on the NSX than anyone else. I ran 2pc RB rotors on the front for over 20 track weekends (replaced the rings 3x) and the 1pc RB rears lasted a total 26 weekends before a total failure of one of the rotors. I then switched the fronts to Brembo GT and their drilled Brembo rotor on the front lasted 2 weekends before I had to replace it. At $600 each, I replaced the Brembo ring with RB replacement slotted rings for the Brembo GT - $400/pr and have 4 weekends on them now.
So I would say they are track worthy.
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