Thoughts on NASA in touch with Aliens for years?

[Ski_Banker]

Flaminio -- this is what I wrote in response to your "Damn you science and reason! Always getting in the way of a good story!" asinine comment.

Q? Do you see an ad hominem attack in what I wrote here? In fact, quite the opposite as I explicitly stated that I thought you were intelligent and informed.
Q? Do you see one in what you wrote (above, ref to me)? You might as well have written "Damn you science and reason, always getting in the way of a good story! Dumbass!"

Well, I'm pretty sure we're both intelligent and informed, and I'm also pretty sure neither of us will be changing our opinion.

But -- no, I don't believe that megalomaniac pharaohs built mathematically perfect pyramids (taller than any structure until 1300 and the 1900s AD) for the sole purpose of stroking their own egos. That's your myth. :wink:

Perhaps you don't see it, but there is an added emphasis to convey my point. How could I possibly know what your specific views are?? This comment -emphasis added- is, however, in line with broad opinion on the pyramids.

 

[flaminio]

How could I possibly know what your specific views are??

You seem to think you do -- after all, you wrote "That's your myth", when it clearly is nothing I wrote.

I ask again: what, specifically, is your question?

 

[C-speed]

mlambert890:

Thanks for your well thought out and informative post. I would like to make a few brief comments and I feel the same way you do about getting into discussions of this nature

Until I see genuine hard evidence, or even a genuine *rational* theory, all of this is no more or less plausible to me than organized religion (meaning not very)

Though I would also agree with your statement from a scientific point of view, I must play devil's advocate here and pose this question:

Simply because you cannot touch, taste, see or hear something, doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist. Take love for instance. It has no physical presence, yet we would all agree that it exists. There's no physical proof or evidence of it. You can see it, touch it, hear or taste it, but we all know it's real because those that have experienced it, can "feel" it.

And I do very much view it as deeply insulting to Egyptians (and I have Egyptian friends infuriated by this) that the collective ego of Western Civilization simply cannot deal with the fact that there was a time when the Euro male was not the master of the earth.

I mean if we're going to talk soft sciences, lets throw in some psychology. Why is it, exactly, that it is always the works of ancient *non-Euro* civilizations that are being questioned (mezo-American, Egyptian, etc) and the questioning is always being done by men of European descent?

Maybe aliens built Buckingham Palace and the Roman Aqueducts. I mean really, why not? In Egyptian society, the Pharoah was god. It is purely a modern conceit (and an ethnocentric one as well) to harp on the idea that there simply *must* be some metaphysical motivation behind the resources they devoted to constructing those monuments. Why don't we question the Great Wall? Because we believe we understand its purpose. I would argue that those who worship "aliens" as a divinity (because psychologically, I truly believe thats what this is about), sieze on the pyramids because they seem enigmatic enough. Siezing on a wall (even though it is just as breathtaking of an accomplishment) would seem ridiculous.

I would disagree with you here. The controversy isn't about the shear size or history value of the monuments themselves. The controversy is in HOW the pyramids (specifically) were built because of the simple fact that they were far beyond the knowledge and technology of the time. Their precision in structure, precision of geographical location, precision to astronomical bodies, etc etc. Thus, it brings up the question of "why".

Although the Great Wall, Buckingham Palace, the Colosseum and the Roman aqueducts were also great architectural achievements, they differ vastly in complexity and design (and intent) to the Pyramids.

Everytime I bother getting into a discussion like this, I inevitably come away marveling over the parallels with the discussions I have engaged in with those who believe in intelligent design (the folks who refute evolution). It is the exact same personality and mindset. The mythology has simply been updated in the minds of many modern folks so it is more compatible with modern science.

You bring up an interesting point... Although I am not a complete believer of 100% evolution, (I believe in a hybrid of creationism - not necessarily by a god - and evolution/Darwinism) I assume that you are a firm believer of strictly evolution? I'd like to hear your thoughts and opinions on this if you don't mind I have an open mind and am always willing to see more/different perspectives on this matter.

 

[flaminio]

The controversy is in HOW the pyramids (specifically) were built because of the simple fact that they were far beyond the knowledge and technology of the time. Their precision in structure, precision of geographical location, precision to astronomical bodies, etc etc. Thus, it brings up the question of "why".

This is no "simple fact" -- the "true" fact is that the construction of the pyramids was well within the skill and technology of the time. Egyptologists have demonstrated several different plausible ways that the pyramids could have been constructed. The exact method would be nice to know, but ultimately irrelevant to this discussion.

There seems to be some theme that the ancient Egyptians were savages of some sort, and this is patently untrue. They were a highly advanced society with a deep understanding of mathematics and astronomy.

If the pyramids were indeed built with some ulterior motive, why didn't the Egyptians write it down? Hieroglyphs exist on nearly every monument there, and since the discovery of the Rosetta stone have been translated with precision. If they wanted to tell us something, why not just write it out?

 

[Ski_Banker]

If the pyramids were indeed built with some ulterior motive, why didn't the Egyptians write it down? Hieroglyphs exist on nearly every monument there, and since the discovery of the Rosetta stone have been translated with precision. If they wanted to tell us something, why not just write it out?

It is my opinion that they did. Did they not call their pharaoh leaders Gods? Did they not worship them as such? Did they not devote an entire civilization to the astonishing construction of monuments that had to have defied imagination at the time? Did they not put all of this into hieroglyphics that we smart people in 2009 AD interpret as being some silly fantasy [that pharaohs were of divine origin].

Whether or not you practice an organized religion, may I ask if you believe in God?

 

[Jimbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLaRXYai19A

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[HYPERTUNE]

There is no hard evidence that there is life anywhere else in the universe and, outside of some mathematical models, there is mounting evidence that sentient life may be far more rare than we think (absence of RF chatter, prevalence of binary stars, frequency of atmosphere killing cosmic events, etc)

How does the prevalence of binary stars have an effect? By eliminating them as a potential "Sun"?

 

[flaminio]

It is my opinion that they did. Did they not call their pharaoh leaders Gods? Did they not worship them as such? Did they not devote an entire civilization to the astonishing construction of monuments that had to have defied imagination at the time? Did they not put all of this into hieroglyphics that we smart people in 2009 AD interpret as being some silly fantasy [that pharaohs were of divine origin].

Deifying the leader is not a unique attribute of the Egyptians. The Japanese have historically considered the Emperor divine, yet no one would ascribe Tokyo Tower to supernatural origins.

I take issue with your statement (phrased interrogatively): Did they not devote an entire civilization to the astonishing construction of monuments that had to have defied imagination at the time? You make it sound like nothing was done by the Egyptians besides build monuments. There are a lot of monuments in the United States, but surely you concede that the United States exists for more than just monument building. And so it is for the Egyptians: monument building is just a part of their culture, and not the be-all, end-all raison d'etre for them. Farmers, merchants, astrologers, beaurocrats, stonecutters, and so on -- they were all part of Egyptian civilization. Yes, some were involved in monument building, but most of the people were just getting on with life -- growing up, falling in love, raising a family; just as we do today.

Whether or not you practice an organized religion, may I ask if you believe in God?

I don't see it as particularly relevant to the discussion, but I don't mind saying that I am an atheist. And you?

 

[Ski_Banker]

Deifying the leader is not a unique attribute of the Egyptians. The Japanese have historically considered the Emperor divine, yet no one would ascribe Tokyo Tower to supernatural origins.

I take issue with your statement (phrased interrogatively): Did they not devote an entire civilization to the astonishing construction of monuments that had to have defied imagination at the time? You make it sound like nothing was done by the Egyptians besides build monuments. There are a lot of monuments in the United States, but surely you concede that the United States exists for more than just monument building. And so it is for the Egyptians: monument building is just a part of their culture, and not the be-all, end-all raison d'etre for them. Farmers, merchants, astrologers, beaurocrats, stonecutters, and so on -- they were all part of Egyptian civilization. Yes, some were involved in monument building, but most of the people were just getting on with life -- growing up, falling in love, raising a family; just as we do today.



I don't see it as particularly relevant to the discussion, but I don't mind saying that I am an atheist. And you?

TRUST ME when I say this -- your position on God/atheism/poodles/whatever has absolutely nothing to do with my firm belief in the following:


I was correct in my earlier post.

 

[C-speed]

This is no "simple fact" -- the "true" fact is that the construction of the pyramids was well within the skill and technology of the time. Egyptologists have demonstrated several different plausible ways that the pyramids could have been constructed. The exact method would be nice to know, but ultimately irrelevant to this discussion.

There seems to be some theme that the ancient Egyptians were savages of some sort, and this is patently untrue. They were a highly advanced society with a deep understanding of mathematics and astronomy.

If the pyramids were indeed built with some ulterior motive, why didn't the Egyptians write it down? Hieroglyphs exist on nearly every monument there, and since the discovery of the Rosetta stone have been translated with precision. If they wanted to tell us something, why not just write it out?

You missed the entire point of my statement - specifically the second sentence:

Originally Posted by C-speed View Post
The controversy is in HOW the pyramids (specifically) were built because of the simple fact that they were far beyond the knowledge and technology of the time. Their precision in structure, precision of geographical location, precision to astronomical bodies, etc etc. Thus, it brings up the question of "why".

Yes, they physically built it. But (as I'm sure everyone knows), the specific size, relationship and positioning of the pyramids defy knowledge and technology of the time. I can go into more detail about that, but you can Google it I'm sure.

ie: The pyramids at Giza are in the exact size, shape and orientation as the three stars in Orion's (constellation) belt. The sides of the pyramids also align to the cardinal points of a compass. The location of the pyramids is also at exactly 30 degrees north and 31 degrees east, which is the center of all the land mass on Earth. The perimeter of the Great pyramid is exactly 1/2 minute of latitude at the equator which shows that the Egyptians knew the exact dimensions of the earth. The list goes on and on.

I hope you get my point now.

 

[C-speed]

I'm absolutely NOT an atheist. I wholeheartedly believe in God -a creator, that put "us" here and ties the knot between matter, energy, and consciousness.

It isn't surprising that you wouldn't see "God" as germane to this discussion. I mean, if God existed and knew all, then why would He have you posting contradictory statements on an Internet forum? Therefore, God probably doesn't exist.


Since you are an atheist, you won't mind posing this question of me:

Why, Ski_Banker, do you believe in God? You are apparently intelligent, educated, recognize how to analyze factual data (all of which my career would support, even if you don't believe it). Yet, you're another God-fearing sucker. Why?


Ask me that question, Flaminio. You are an Atheist, Flaminio, so you shouldn't find fear in the answer.

Please don't turn this discussion into something about religion... No one wins.

 

[Ski_Banker]

Please don't turn this discussion into something about religion... No one wins.

This isn't international trade or game theory. You aren't John Nash. Nor are you Paul Samuelson or Wolfgang Stolper.


There is a "winner" in this game. It might be the Team Captain. It might be the Referee. It won't be the Coach, though.

 

[clarknm]

a. How were the pyramids were built -- Science seems to have gotten the physical construction part figured out, but science does not have an answer to the bigger question (for me) of how the civilization supported such a massive project. More importantly, science doesn't attempt to answer it. It's "case closed" once there is evidence of people, chisels, and a workable solution to stacking 3 ton bricks 450 in the air.

Maybe they were in a recession and the government was simultaneously implementing a stimulus package and an object of national (and personal) pride. The motivations of a human society is not in the realm of science though, it's a liberal art. We'll never be able to say with confidence what the motivation was, just as our descendants will never be able to say what our motivations are.

b. Why does Mayan civilization and its pyramids mirror that of the ancient Egyptians? Dramatic rise

That last part seems likely; what's the biggest, tallest structure they could build? And would last? Size does matter...

 

[docjohn]

I think someone needs to A) sober up before posting B) consult with physician for medication dose adjustment

 

[C-speed]

I think someone needs to A) sober up before posting B) consult with physician for medication dose adjustment

Agreed.

 

[JorjeM]

I think someone needs to A) sober up before posting B) consult with physician for medication dose adjustment

But isn't it entertaining? I like to read about the different out looks. I thought that was what forums were all about! Besides the name calling and all haha

 

[C-speed]

But isn't it entertaining? I like to read about the different out looks. I thought that was what forums were all about! Besides the name calling and all haha

Not when someone is trying to get all religious about it.

 

[flaminio]

ie: The pyramids at Giza are in the exact size, shape and orientation as the three stars in Orion's (constellation) belt. The sides of the pyramids also align to the cardinal points of a compass. The location of the pyramids is also at exactly 30 degrees north and 31 degrees east, which is the center of all the land mass on Earth. The perimeter of the Great pyramid is exactly 1/2 minute of latitude at the equator which shows that the Egyptians knew the exact dimensions of the earth. The list goes on and on.

I hope you get my point now.

I get your point. I take issue with the presumption that such measurements are beyond the technology of the Egyptians. Keep in mind that the Egyptian civilization lasted for thousands of years. Our modern technology was built up only in the past few hundred years, without any alien or divine intervention. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that the Egyptians could have developed many technologies that are now lost to time; again, without any aliens or deities -- just good old human cleverness.

Also, it is abundantly clear that astronomy was an integral part of Egyptian culture; much more so than it is today. Given the value that the Egyptians placed on astronomy, it makes perfect sense that the would construct their grandest monuments with a keen sense of this purpose.

 

[docjohn]

Sorry Ski about my snide comments,but I find it odd that you seem to get really emotional and rude when discussing aliens and egyptians(unless you have a longstanding hard on for flaminio) sharply contrasts to your cool and collected/ matter of fact posts when discussing economics/politics

 

[C-speed]

I get your point. I take issue with the presumption that such measurements are beyond the technology of the Egyptians. Keep in mind that the Egyptian civilization lasted for thousands of years. Our modern technology was built up only in the past few hundred years, without any alien or divine intervention. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that the Egyptians could have developed many technologies that are now lost to time; again, without any aliens or deities -- just good old human cleverness.

Also, it is abundantly clear that astronomy was an integral part of Egyptian culture; much more so than it is today. Given the value that the Egyptians placed on astronomy, it makes perfect sense that the would construct their grandest monuments with a keen sense of this purpose.

You cannot chalk it up to such simplistic rational and reasoning. Yes, the Egyptian civilization survived for a very long period of time and yes, they certainly did develop many new technologies that (may have) revolutionized the "world" at that time. (I used the word World in quotes because it is indecisive whether people had spanned the oceans and crossed the continents yet at that time - hence the strangely similar constructed Mayan pyramids raises another conspiracy theory.)

However, I believe you are STILL missing the point

Expressing the precise dimensions of the Earth by placing the Pyramids at a precise longitude and latitude, are modern technologies. This is just one such example... I challenge you to do some simple/quick research on the anomalies of the Great Pyramids, then tell us that they "learned all this knowledge" and that it was "lost in time".

I'm not saying that that isn't the case... I'm just saying that it's something that can't be THAT easily dismissed - as you have in your last post.

 

[DocL]

I think someone should direct NASA to this thread. There seems to be a few aliens here who need to be experimented on. :biggrin:

 

[Ski_Banker]

Sorry Ski about my snide comments,but I find it odd that you seem to get really emotional and rude when discussing aliens and egyptians(unless you have a longstanding hard on for flaminio) sharply contrasts to your cool and collected/ matter of fact posts when discussing economics/politics

No worries, Doc. The hand of God has apparently deleted my posts and appeared before me in my Inbox with a message that I'm a single post away from being suspended.

Sure would be nice to know what constitutes "Treading Lightly" on subjects such as this.

I do have strong views on people that affirmatively believe that there is no God. Not agnostics, or people with deep faith in a given religion. Just people that state that they firmly believe in the nonexistence of something -like God- often inferring that their superior intellect and scientific mindset is the root of their faith. I'll work on a philosophical proof for why this position is a falsehood.

Carry on...

 

[C-speed]

No worries, Doc. The hand of God has apparently deleted my posts and appeared before me in my Inbox with a message that I'm a single post away from being suspended.

Sure would be nice to know what constitutes "Treading Lightly" on subjects such as this.

I do have strong views on people that affirmatively believe that there is no God. Not agnostics, or people with deep faith in a given religion. Just people that state that they firmly believe in the nonexistence of something -like God- often inferring that their superior intellect and scientific mindset is the root of their faith. I'll work on a philosophical proof for why this position is a falsehood.

Carry on...

There's not definitive proof that there *IS* a God either, that's why its called a "belief" and "faith"...

So there is no point in discussing this topic, especially within one about aliens! :biggrin:

 

[Ski_Banker]

There's not definitive proof that there *IS* a God either, that's why its called a "belief" and "faith"...

That is true.

To believe that the NSX-R GT was ever produced for sale, or "might have" been produced for sale, is intellectually honest. To believe that it was not, ever, produced for sale would *still* require a leap of faith, even if one sampled all Hondas ever produced. That is atheism.

 

[flaminio]

That is true.

To believe that the NSX-R GT was ever produced for sale, or "might have" been produced for sale, is intellectually honest. To believe that it was not, ever, produced for sale would *still* require a leap of faith, even if one sampled all Hondas ever produced. That is atheism.

In deference to the 'prime "tread lightly" policy, I am not going to get in to this discussion. My lack of rebut, however, should not be taken as an admission of defeat.

I'll be back with more on pyramids and aliens later. Got some pesky "work" to do...