The "soul" of the NSX as compared to others

[bfrank1972]

I'm just a backroad pirate

Wow that's quite a statement on Porsche reliability - sounds more like a compilation of all the major issues from someone who skims the Porsche technical repair forums :biggrin: They're not that bad, many of the issues that sound so horrible are a small percentage and/or have been resolved by now on a car with some miles/years under its belt. The thing with Porsche, as with many expensive high performance vehicles, is proper and preventive maintenance. And then parts/labor are expensive. Same with the NSX - sure it's a Honda, but it's not your ordinary Honda. While likely more tolerant of neglect than a Porsche or Ferrari, it still is a bespoke high performance vehicle that will require proper (and somewhat costly) maintenance. This includes the whole tire wear thing. You can have someone mess around with the stock toe-in settings, but it will affect your handling - I don't think Honda set their cars up that way just to annoy their customers

This is coming from a fellow NSX lover as well as a fellow Porsche/BMW lover. I'm curious after reading your impressions on Porsche, which ones did you own and for how long?

Cheers,
Brad

 

[BATMANs]

Ha ha that's so true. I love my 7. It handles great (not as well as my NSX), and has a good bit of power (stock twins), and it turns heads (not as well as my NSX in this department either).

But man fuel consumption (also not as well as my NSX).

I think as far as "soul" goes; doesn't it depend on the end user? I love all my cars, and I have love for all cars. I think a car has "personality" differences. Where they excel in some places and don't do so well in certain places.

This is just my opinion, so I just might be weird ha ha.

The more boost u put into the FD the more "soul" it has.

When I had the FD and the NSX at the same time for a few months I did compare the handling of the 2 cars.

To be fair both cars had the following:

• SS Braided brake lines
• X-drilled/slotted rotors
• EBC Red Stuff
• Coil overs where both were lowered to the point that the outside edge of the

tires were flushed with the fender/quarter panel edge/lip.

• Both had 275 wide rear tires
• The FD had 255 in the front and the NSX had 235 in the front

Of course the cars were different enough that you can't get an exact match in mods and tire size.

When I think of handling in terms of something that I can quantify with nothing more than a speedometer I think of cornering speeds which equates to G forces.

There is this turn that I take from Highway 17 towards SJ that merges onto 85 North.

With the same brand of tires (both cars had RE050), the FD was averaging 5MPH faster turns. In found that dropping the gear to 4th gave more desirable results since 2nd and 3rd gear gave so much power that a slight tap of the foot could send ur rear end loose.

In the NSX I left the TCS on and towards the limits the TCS started to "act" up. I haven't done this with the TCS off since I trust Acura's TCS system.

 

[tbromley]

This one goes out to BFrank mostly as to my comments on Porsche. I've had 3 911s. An 83 SC Targa (2 years), an 87 Turbo Look cabrio (2 years), a 96 993 coupe (2 years). Now before you think that all I do is "skim" tech articles as to what lies and awaits the unwary 996 purchaser, I've been on the Renn list for 7 years. I have a good friend, owner of Automobile Atlanta (all Porsche), and I not only skim but I research severely any car I intend to buy. Secondly all 911s have issues, it depends on the year as to the severity, so which one you wanna discuss. Now I'm not a techno junkie, nor am I a big DIYer, although I've done a fair amount of that in the past when I was younger. I read a lot of car mags and especially Excellence, have about 4 Porshce books, like Bruce Anderson's Performance Handbook and the other one most used was the Used 911 Story. I also read with great interest the M96, it's past and future, in Excellence several issues ago, I've emailed back and forth with Adrian Streather and Bruce Anderson on many issues, I've read a huge blog post on the issues of the 996 3.4s and 3.6s and believe me, I've owned enough of them to know that when the articles about RMS issues and IMS issues are as prevalent as they are and the blog port derived specifically to find out how many have experienced RMS issues and IMS issues, engine replacements etc, to know that I am not ready to take the chance to own one to see if possibly it might just happen to me. That would be the 996. Oh and if you just happen to be a first time owner and you buy a used one and the IMS bearing goes out and you need an engine replacement, well who might you think would pay for that, since it's obviously a known defect, Porsche maybe - uh WRONG! Not unless you just happen to have a long list of dealer history and marque support.

I recently drove a Boxster to a Porsche event, granted it was an older model, had 94k on the odo, had been ridden a little hard, but the interior was cheap and plasticy, it shifted ok but the shifter sure didn't feel like any of my previous 911s. No but then nothing else did either. It was fast enough I suppose, but if you think that cars engine would last like a 3.0 or 3.2 air cooled model of course, you gotta another think comin. They don't feel the same, the quality of the older cars is not there, and the engine although technically more proficient, will definitly not last long enough and may develop RMS issues, which in themselves one might say not such a big deal, but if you own one of the earlier models, your crankshaft may be out and then you may need an engine or if the IMS bearing goes you will surely need an engine at only 13 to 15k; personally I find that to be totally unacceptable - how bout you? There are a lot of folks out there that this has happened to, not just one or two. Bruce A said in the early days it may have been as much as 50% now he says closer to 20%. Oh boy, I feel so much better with only a one in five chance.

So is it just articles or are people really having problems - it's that people are really having expensive problems and that's the truth of it and I don't want to be another statistic. I've heard that it's rare in the 3.6 later gen engines in the 2006 and later - nice, can't afford that. Maintenance is just flat out less on an NSX. How bout brakes and replacing your rotors everytime you change your pads - not in the NSX.

So other what are the issues other than tire wear? You can adjust your camber to solve that by the way. Timing belt/water pump, clutch? All that's regular maintenance stuff. That's ok, if all I had to worry about with Porsche was regular maintenance stuff I'd be ok with them that's not necessarily the case and well, "do ya feel lucky", I don't want to rely on luck - sorry. I'll pass. I can't afford a post 2006 911 so for me I had to look elsewhere if I wanted a car that would perform up to more modern standards and be reliable - enter the NSX. They are really no more difficult to maintain than my wifes RL- period! You can't say that about 911s - no way, not the more modern ones with more power. So here I am and I'm going to park it here for a while, get an NSX and see for myself. I don't think I'll be dissappointed - do you? Anyone else here think I'll be dissappointed?

Anyway, I just kind of jaded on Porsche right now, maybe after I own an NSX I might get jaded with them - anyone care to say I might? Just curious. I'll always like Porsche. I'll always love the air coolers and maybe one day I might try em again. But not for a while.

Thanks Tim

 

[bfrank1972]

That's quite a reply Tim! Thanks...

I was just curious as to what you owned, and if you had any problems with them. I'm glad you're so eager to own an NSX, and I don't think you'll regret it one bit. It's a brilliant and IMHO a truly soulful car. You are really going to love it when you finally get to drive one (hopefully soon)! And if you tell me an $80K mid engine exotic is as easy to work on as your wife's RL, I'll believe ya

Cheers,
Brad

P.S. - Bruce Anderson is often full of hot air

 

[tbromley]

Hey B,


Maybe not as easy but most likely not anymore expesnsive. But there are a few things that the NSX needs that the RL will never need like a clutch. But hey, I'm king of the clutch babiers. I've been driving manual trannies all my life - 59 years of it, well, lets see 43 years anyway or 44 as I learned to drive at 15. Been thru many different cars since then - British, Swedish, Japanese, German, no American cars though. Not Italian either. Bruce A can be a little full of hot air but he does know a lot about stats. Now other Euro mags put the stuff at more like around 10 or 15% of the 996s but that still ain't good enough. See the deal with Porsche is that they had to go water cooled and it's hard for a company working to preserve themselves as a car manufacturer to try and make cheaper cars and good ones at the same time and they had som real issues cutting their teeth on water cooled engines and you and I pay for it. I don't think I'm willing to do that.

I have a feeling that the NSX is going to be a great car and reliable but exotic like you say and a little more expensive to maintain properly but nothing like Porsche really. They just don't have those quirks and idiosyncracies that Porsches do with that boxer engine. I love Porsche - don't get me wrong and I wouldn't mind having a 3.2 89 model but they are getting long in the tooth and even if not they are still slow comparitively speaking. The 3.2 NSX is mucho faster and handles better.

I think I'm a prime candidate for the experience. I get bored with cars easy but I'll tell you nothing bores me more than funky problems that needle me to death like the power activated top on my 87 TL cabrio. Geez that kind of stuff just puts a damper on ownership. I don't like little nagging problems and I hope that I'll avoid that with the NSX.

Do you think I'm headed in the right direction? I gotta believe you do. I bet we'd have a good time talking about cars if we ever rounded up. I'm sure of it. I don't know it all, don't mean to sound that way. I'm just really ready for some cool exotic realiability - relief. Do you know what I mean?

Thanks for writing - really mean that.

Tim
Atlanta

 

[bfrank1972]

I get bored with cars easy but I'll tell you nothing bores me more than funky problems that needle me to death like the power activated top on my 87 TL cabrio. Geez that kind of stuff just puts a damper on ownership.

lol I hear ya there, and I as well do not mean to sound harsh or preachy. To me it's all about expectations - when I owned my 911's (73 2.4S, 71 914-6, 89 3.2) I expected to spend decent change on parts and PM. I loved all of them and never really felt needled. Just wanted to make sure you knew the NSX is somewhat 'special' that way too - not like a Porsche but certainly not anything like an Accord or even S2000. Many of them are getting older as well so inevitably things will be wearing out - as you know, like owning an older 911 the primary thing to look for (over mileage or anything else) is excellent maintenence history. Be obsessive over that and I think you'll have a most excellent experience And I do think you're meant to own an NSX and appreciate your enthusiasm. Personally the fact that there are people out there who regard the NSX as inferior, soul-less, or 'just a Honda' makes me happy. Plenty of clueless poseurs driving around in their Ferraris (or 911's for that matter), but you know when you see an NSX it is much more likely to be driven by an enthusiast (such as yourself).

Regards,
Brad

 

[tbromley]

Man "B",
You really have had some great Porsches. I was actually thinking of the 73.5 911s but an S, wow, talk about expensive- you can't touch those cars for less than 60k and a DIY resto - FORGET it! I just saw one for 84k that had been completely restored - nut and bolt resto. A super fine one, maybe the best I've ever seen advertised and believe me I've seen a LOT of em. The 914 6 is another great one and then the 89 3.2 is in my opinion the last of the best! So you definitely know a thing or two about them. My good friend George Hussey is "Dr. 914" as you may know.

Strangely enough it's been George that has been in a large part responsible for getting me wakened up about the later water coolers. Porsche just doesn't stand behind them like they should with known probs.

I like your point a lot about the "soul" of a car. I too am aware that NSXs are largely unknown and little understood - GOOD. More for us. Pickens are good right now for my first shot at it. Let me ask you a question and perhaps we should to this in pm's so I'll write you off this topic. I believe I've strayed to far off topic here. Suffice to say that the soul of the NSX is surely strong and I am very much eager to become a member of this exclusive club of owners with a truly soulful car.

Tim

 

[sca037]

I'm just really ready for some cool exotic realiability - relief. Do you know what I mean?

I know exactly what you mean.
I've been a Porsche guy for many years (still have a 944 and love it), and when searching for our first convertible assumed it would be a 911/Boxster/968/944S2........but the more research I did the more it lead us to our S2000.
Couldn't be happier with that car, it's an amazingly engaging machine that is stone reliable.
The S2000 opened the door for considering the NSX over the inevitable 930 I was shopping for, and the rest, as they say..........is history.

Brian

 

[BATMANs]

...... I too am aware that NSXs are largely unknown and little understood - GOOD. More for us. Pickens are good right now for my first shot at it.......Tim

I was thinking the opposite based on supply and demand principles.........

 

[tbromley]

Supply and demand don't count in sports cars unless you're talking super rare and NSXs don't fall into that catagory. Turbo Looks do as there were only like 900 ever shipped to the US and you can still find them and they come at a bit of a premium but not as much as you'd think being that rare. Those would be the ones built from 84 - 89.

I say all that to say this. A production that comes to 9000 imported here is hardly that rare and consequently why you can find them in fairly large quantities in places like AOL.com.nsx - have you checked that lately? There are only 188 cars for sale and for a rare bunch that's a pretty good number. Important thing here is this - every car and especially exotics or "super cars" take a beating in a downturn economy. All of them. Porsches are selling at all time lows - now there are only 800 of them on ebay and that's a production run that spans over 40 years so that's not so many relatively speaking.

Just because something has been minimally produced doesn't mean they are excluded from a price drop. If you want to sell a car now, you'll see what I mean. Nothing meets the reserve on ebay - not NSXs or Porsches. So that's what I see out there.

Tim

 

[hofffam]

This topic will never get settled because of the hardened positions so many people have. No one will argue about the soul of Ferrari - earned through years of racing and magnificent cars.

But those that say Japanese cars, including the NSX, have no soul are people that really don't understand Japanese people and their culture. The Japanese "way" is different than the Italian way or the German way. Team-think vs. individual-think. Workmanship vs. NOT. Restraint vs. in-your-face. Some things are similar to the Germans - like attention to detail. But many German cars seem to have an Achilles heel that compromises their reliability in some expensive way.

In many ways I think the NSX is way out of the normal for a Japanese car. It is powerful, beautiful, relatively loud, etc.

Kids today are in love with Japanese culture. Far more pop culture is coming out of Japan than Europe. Anime, video games, cell phones, etc.

I think the NSX is the ultimate statement of Japanese soul.