The "soul" of the NSX as compared to others

[lightguy]

Lots of people in the Ferrari group I associate with claim the NSX has no "soul". And yes I own a Ferrari with about as much soul as one can possibly have. Some even snicker that in Japan the NSX is just a Honda.
I ask ; "have you ever owned or even driven one ?"
"No why should I ? Its just like an Accord".

"Soul" to them is the end result of a successful marketing campaign from Modena.

They don't know what they are missing and I'm starting to be OK with that.

 

[lightguy]

Tim, the following is the text of an article by Gordon Murray about the NSX. You'll find this very enlightening.


" In my opinion, the NSX, while being such a great sports car, had two large flaws in it's marketing. First, at the time, the public was not ready to accept a Japanese car that was this expensive. The second is that for supercar customers, the power figures were not quite high enough. "

Great article BTW.
Yes Honda's F up was not turbocharging the 6 per the XJ220 or longitudinally mid-mounting a V-8, V-10 or V-12 per the Italians.
Their arrogant Japanese "gentleman's agreement" limiting power to 300 HP is what kept the NSX from achieving the immediate glory it should have earned.

It will have to wait a bit more just like the 206 and 246 Dino's had to.

 

[tbromley]

I just hope they revive the testing and continue on the way to the next gen NSX. If they don't it'll be waaaay sad. I can't believe they won't build it eventually as close as they are. It has more than 300hp now - the test car that is. I still have faith they'll do it. They can't leave us all hanging out here waiting forever and wondering if Honda is going to be world class or not and achieve the highest level - no way. They're egos won't let em. I hope I'm right!

Ferarri guys are kind of aloof and it's too bad. Some of them think they've made it to the top and everything else is just second rate. Not so "grasshopper". I agree with lightguy! Cool that you have an F car and an NSX. Bet I know which one runs well all the time....

 

[MartinSD]

Greetings

I think that your perspective of soul in a car changes as your life changes. I think of Ferrari's and Porsche's as raw/unrefined. Go on a long drive and you are beat to shit. Your wallet gets beat to shit if you try to drive them every day -- I can afford to, but why should I have to.

My NSX has a personality -- just like any car does. What is soul -- I think that is soul.

Cheers,
Martin

 

[BD]

So not true. Porsche has been racing since 1948. Honda may have had some success in F1 in the late 80's, etc. but will not come even close to the race pedigree and history that Porsche has. Hell, Porsche still makes a factory built race car that anyone can order (GT3 RSR). Take a look at this:

http://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsandracing/motorsport/philosophy/history/victories/

Honda doesn't even come close to second. Maybe 100th.

Porsche products count 28,000 combined victories in various forms of motorsport over the 70 year history of the company. No other brand is even close to those numbers.

Please indicate Porsche's accomplishment in F1!!! The holly grail of all motor racing.

I'm sure some where, some times a girl have competed and won in many pageantry without competing in Miss Universe.

 

[soloracer951]

Please indicate Porsche's accomplishment in F1!!! The holly grail of all motor racing.

I'm sure some where, some times a girl have competed and won in many pageantry without competing in Miss Universe.

Oh to be so ignorant. Did you even look at the links I posted? How about a quick search of Formula 1's website? Will this make you happier?

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2005/7/3327.html

How can anyone this day and age not know that Porsche has an extensive racing history?

 

[soloracer951]

Just in case you are too lazy to click the link here are the number of F1 wins Porsche has:

Formula 1 Driver-World Championship (McLaren with the engine designed and built by Porsche for TAG) 3

Formula 1 victories (McLaren with the engine designed and built by Porsche for TAG) 25

Formula 1 victories (together with the victory in Rouen in 1962) 26

 

[soloracer951]

Great article BTW.
Yes Honda's F up was not turbocharging the 6 per the XJ220 or longitudinally mid-mounting a V-8, V-10 or V-12 per the Italians.
Their arrogant Japanese "gentleman's agreement" limiting power to 300 HP is what kept the NSX from achieving the immediate glory it should have earned.

It will have to wait a bit more just like the 206 and 246 Dino's had to.

I agree 100%. At the time when the NSX was designed Honda was building high horsepower turbo engines. Even Gordon Murray said they should have given it more power.

 

[tbromley]

Are you guys saying that the NSX in stock form is underpowered? Turbos are great but how many mod theirs with that upgrade?

 

[mickeylex]

Are you guys saying that the NSX in stock form is underpowered? Turbos are great but how many mod theirs with that upgrade?

The question really would be "underpowered for what?". Depends on what you want to do with the NSX. For 1/4 mile racing, yes, it is underpowered. For track/road racing, it is competitive in stock form (assuming the driver knows how to drive it).

 

[soloracer951]

Are you guys saying that the NSX in stock form is underpowered? Turbos are great but how many mod theirs with that upgrade?

Yes, and if you have driven or gotten used to a turbo car (Porsche, etc.) you will find out as I did. In a straight line it just doesn't have the "oomph" to plant you in the seat like other cars - say the 996 Turbo you were considering. The car practically begs to be given some more jam. This is probably why you see many CTSC or Turbo mods done to these cars. At the track it's more of a momentum machine than a HP machine.

 

[blodi]

I figured I would add my .02 to this thread finally. When I was looking for an NSX I was working with Camilo Pardo (chief designer of the Ford GT) at the time.
He mentioned how he got to drive a new NSX for a week or two while they were developing the Ford GT. The engineers I guess were looking at different aspects of the NSX..which is probably a very little known fact, according to him mainly the feel of the shifter. I started at Ford right before the GT was launched and remember seeing a 360 also in one of the garages as a "benchmark" car.
Anyways, he mentioned how it was a great car, but he thought it felt very "japanese"....he elaborated and said how it lacked soul...because everything was so easy about the car and it felt like you were driving a normal car. Now he has owned a number of exotics and at the time had a 512BB..still think he has it in fact. But that always stuck with me. Although he seemed excited about the NSX when I finally got it and commented what a great car it was for the money.

 

[2slow2speed]

Are you guys saying that the NSX in stock form is underpowered? Turbos are great but how many mod theirs with that upgrade?

The NSX when it came out was not underpowered and handled exceptionally well (more so the Type-S and the Type-R).

Compared to modern cars that are available today the car lacks in the power department, handling, and braking as well, the OEM steering wheel is a monster, the seats lack sufficient lateral support.

The NSX will still turn many heads because of it's exotic and unique look, the shifter is a jewel and the driving position feels like you are driving a formula car, really low to the ground.

 

[tbromley]

So you guys must have done some modifying to your cars, right? So what mods have you done to improve power and braking,which go hand in hand. Some actually mod suspension first. The car I'm looking at already has JIS coil overs so to go along with that, which is not a big mod is turbo charging a big help and how much does it usually cost to get a bump to say 350 hp and is that enough? Just curious as to what all these mods set someone back. The last two posts suggest that the seats aren't good enough, so have you guys gone to the type seats for the NSX-R? What about brakes?

Thanks. Tim

 

[2slow2speed]

Engine:

I/H/E, (Dali/Comptech/Comptech)

Chose to stay with a NA engine, never got around to doing a Turbo/SC (because of the possible downside/complications of having a FI engine).

Suspension:

Dali street/track sway bars front and rear.

Went through a set of Tein RA's coilovers with a 10kg/mm Front 12kg/mm Rear first and then changed to 10/10 setup for a bit more neutral handling (less oversteer).

Ended up with the NA2 NSX-R shocks/springs afterwards and never looked back (much better suspension, but not really street friendly) NSX-R front chassis reinforcement bar as well as the bottom bar.

Non compliance front toe clamp (SoS)

Non compliance rear toe links (Comptech) along with the corresponding bushings in the rear beam (Sos).

Brakes:

Stoptech BBK F/R, great kit properly proportioned, the only downside was the size of the caliper and finding wheels that would clear the front caliper. Spent lots of $$'s trying to find wheels that would clear the kit and that had decent weight characteristics. Pads Carbotech P+.

Wheels: Too many to list given the Stoptech BBK fitment issues that I had, all of them staggered 17/18 setups. Trying to get a 235 wheel up front on stock fenders without rubbing is almost impossible .

Seats: OEM NSX Type-S seats, perfect seats for the NSX, downside really expensive and hard to get. Night and day difference between them and most other seats for the NSX.

Full disclosure: Don't own the NSX anymore, if I had the garage space I would have kept the car. People who claim that the NSX does not have a soul have never owned one. The NSX was a one off supercar from Honda, shame that Honda did not follow up with timely updates over the years.

 

[tnguyen]

RX7's mus thave soul (aka - when it's working in good order, it's love all over again - "Start Bitch!!!")

Ha ha that's so true. I love my 7. It handles great (not as well as my NSX), and has a good bit of power (stock twins), and it turns heads (not as well as my NSX in this department either).

But man fuel consumption (also not as well as my NSX).

I think as far as "soul" goes; doesn't it depend on the end user? I love all my cars, and I have love for all cars. I think a car has "personality" differences. Where they excel in some places and don't do so well in certain places.

This is just my opinion, so I just might be weird ha ha.

 

[MartinSD]

Just in case you are too lazy to click the link here are the number of F1 wins Porsche has:

Formula 1 Driver-World Championship (McLaren with the engine designed and built by Porsche for TAG) 3

Formula 1 victories (McLaren with the engine designed and built by Porsche for TAG) 25

Formula 1 victories (together with the victory in Rouen in 1962) 26

Greetings

Porsche only has 1 win in F1 -- in 1962. The other victories listed were for McLaren's (They were powered by Porsche engines, but the chassis was not Porsche). There were 25 of these. This does not take anything away from Porsche. Look at their Le Man's wins.

Honda has 2 wins in F1 -- 1 in 1965 and 2 in 1967. This is from Wiki

Cheers,
Martin

 

[soloracer951]

Greetings

Porsche only has 1 win in F1 -- in 1962. The other victories listed were for McLaren's (They were powered by Porsche engines, but the chassis was not Porsche). There were 25 of these. This does not take anything away from Porsche. Look at their Le Man's wins.

Honda has 2 wins in F1 -- 1 in 1965 and 2 in 1967. This is from Wiki

Cheers,
Martin

Which is what the links I provided said and further proves the point I was making. Porsche has wins in F1 both as constructor and an engine supplier. They also have an amazing number of wins in many other famous racing series. As VP of the local chapter of the PCA I took offense to the apparent disregard for this history that pretty much anyone in the western world knows about. At no point did I indicate that Honda had not won in F1 because I know differently. When Porsche decided to pull out as an engine supplier to McLaren it was Honda that was selected to replace them. The early statement by Vancehu where he proclaims Honda to have a much longer racing pedigree than Porsche was ignorant. Porsche earned it's reputation on the race tracks of the world and for many of us that is why we admire the brand.

 

[tbromley]

Guys, Solar Racer is right, what's the argument. Porsche's history in racing is pretty much second to none. Honda is a fledgling when compared. That doesn't make Honda second rate nore does that make the NSX any less world class. The NSX has something that Porsche can't match in the cars they sell to the public; reliability! I don't think anyone would argue that. That doesn't make Porsche a crappy auto maker though. I believe the point has been made for Porsche and Acura/Honda.

 

[enesexdreamer]

Your soul is mines!! :biggrin:

 

[soloracer951]

Guys, Solar Racer is right, what's the argument. Porsche's history in racing is pretty much second to none. Honda is a fledgling when compared. That doesn't make Honda second rate nore does that make the NSX any less world class. The NSX has something that Porsche can't match in the cars they sell to the public; reliability! I don't think anyone would argue that. That doesn't make Porsche a crappy auto maker though. I believe the point has been made for Porsche and Acura/Honda.

The issue at hand though is what is more important to you in a sports car? The reliability of an atomic clock or the excitement of an atomic explosion? It has been argued that while the NSX is reliable it lacks the excitement necessary to attain greatness. Often this is described as "not having any soul" for lack of a more clinical definition. To a certain extent I would have to agree. I love the car because it is beautiful and sexy. Prior to owning one I read every magazine article and every test drive. I couldn't wait to get my chance behind the wheel. Then when I finally got to drive one I was shattered. It just didn't go like I expected. For the record, it was no different the first time I drove an NA 993 either. But at least Porsche saw fit to make the 993 Turbo and that put the punch back in the bowl so to speak. With the NSX all we are left with is the aftermarket and the hope that if they ever make a new one they don't forget to keep it sexy and give it an engine that will light your hair on fire every time you step on the throttle.

 

[soloracer951]

On a side note, I'm considering buying a late 70's 400 hp 934 clone that I really like the looks of. I've talked to the owner and he said it was stripped to bare metal and painted....now get this....NSX red. Sounds like it was meant to be. :biggrin:

 

[whiteNSXs]

Which is what the links I provided said and further proves the point I was making. Porsche has wins in F1 both as constructor and an engine supplier. They also have an amazing number of wins in many other famous racing series. As VP of the local chapter of the PCA I took offense to the apparent disregard for this history that pretty much anyone in the western world knows about. At no point did I indicate that Honda had not won in F1 because I know differently. When Porsche decided to pull out as an engine supplier to McLaren it was Honda that was selected to replace them. The early statement by Vancehu where he proclaims Honda to have a much longer racing pedigree than Porsche was ignorant. Porsche earned it's reputation on the race tracks of the world and for many of us that is why we admire the brand.

It is a no brainer. Porsche has been the winningest marque EVER. I did not grow up liking them by just seeing these cars on the street. The name "Porsche" in the winning circles became a HABIT. Magazines, newspapers, and TV reports those victories like weather reports. Many earlier NSX owners were Porsche owners. In fact the "NSX" font is the "PORSCHE" font. The NSX was a phenominal creation which in the early years consistently earned the title of the best sport car in the world.
Every magazine that I read back in the early 90s was totally amazed by such a car. I read a lot of magazines. Even though I have always been a diehard Porsche guy, I have owned many NSXs. As marvelous as the NSX is, Honda by no means has racing victories or history more than Porsche. Don't even try putting Honda bikes in this discussion. They are irrelevant when compared with Porsche. Honda is however the winningest bike marque hands down and that's why I have 5 in my garage. NSX was only a one-hit wonder. Porsche keeps making better cars year after year. Honda engines did magics in F1. There are many major and hugely popular races other than F1. Le Mans, Paris Dakar, rallies and many more. Porsche has won practically in all of them routinely. Honda hasn't. As a Work team, Honda's victories in F1 are not at all impressive.
Steve

 

[lightguy]

On a side note, I'm considering buying a late 70's 400 hp 934 clone that I really like the looks of. I've talked to the owner and he said it was stripped to bare metal and painted....now get this....NSX red. Sounds like it was meant to be. :biggrin:

Too cool !
I had a 74 that cracked a piston about 20 years ago. Was going to put an aluminum Chevy v-8 in the back and add 934 bodywork. Decided to work overtime instead to buy another car.Used Euro M-6 6 banger.

Here's a real 934 but its just a couple hundred out of my price range.
Hundred as in grand not dollars..:frown:

http://inventory.rufautocentre.com/cgi-bin/showroom.cgi?mode=show&id=270434&d_id=947

 

[tbromley]

Sounds like a lot of guys here extolling the Porsche marque. I like em too and have been obsessed with them over the last 7 years but the water coolers don't do it for me unless you're talking GT3 and I can't afford one so no need in thinking about them. They are finiky cars and need lots of attention, they run great but they are finiky (air coolers that is) in that you have to warm em up just right before you start to put the hammer down, and you gotta run em at least 20 or so minutes to get em warmed up enough so they don't get moisture building up in the wrong places. The water cooler 996s have too many problems or the possibility of some real ruin you ownership type problems if the IMS bearing breaks - real bad! Can you say blow up! Can you say replace the engine! Don't need that and there is no way in hell they are going to last 300k miles - no way. The old 3.0s and 3.2s yes, but not the new water coolers or even in my opinion the 993 without major engine work to get there - but not the Honda/Acura NSX- oooooh no, it'll do it and it'll run great all the way and maybe even longer!

I believe that if the NSX matches the 993 in speed/acceleration it is plenty fast! So all you guys that have driven both the NA 993 and the NSX chime in, which is faster, not better handling - faster? I know which one handles better - the NSX! No doubt and if it's as fast as a 993 then I'm in for "hog heaven"! I don't need it to be scalding fast if I do, then I'll turbo it. But I bet I never do! Bet I keep it stock. The suspension, would be fine for me stock cause stock it handles better than a 993 and that is saying something in my book cause I know how good the 993 handles - I had one. Got in the North GA mountains and it handles real good and if the NSX does better in that regard then that'll be waaay fine!

You see for me the fun is driving and in an unworried sort of way. I'm at 1000 ft. above sea level here in Atlanta and that means the car will develop it's maximum hp and run real well. And run real well ever day if I cared to use it everyday. I will put 5 to 6k miles a year on it and it'll last me as long as I want to drive it. Is it as fast as a GT-R Nissan, aahmmm, who the hell cares - it sure looks tons better. You see I don't need a Lamborghini speed out of my NSX to feel good about it. I just need it to be fairly modern in speed/acceleration and be "bullit proof". That's what all the other cars lack - that reliability factor or lets call it the "worry factor". Cause guys that's what it is with these other exotics - a worry factor and I want that factored out of my ownership -if that makes it bit bland or "soul less" then I'm fine with that. I'm tired of tempermental, worrisome little noises all in the name of "super performance" and you'd have to get a 996 turbo to get faster than the NSX. I don't need it, oh and how bout resale -mmmmm, yeah how bout resale - NSXs hold their value better than any of them! That's a fact unless your talking some early collectible model of 911, or 356 cabrios. They're old and even more finiky and - they are slow by modern standards - fun, but really tough to keep just right. I want "creak" free driving and modern speed and SUPER reliability and the NSX is IT!!! It's the only one really. Bimmers are fine, sure I've owned them for 15 years too and I like em but they don't do it for me like a low slung real sports car like a Porsche or NSX. No way for me.

That's what I'll say and if the Porshce has more marque and racing heritage, so what, who cares, I'm not entering Sebring or LeMan. I'm just a backroad pirate and love to drive- less worry, means lots of great driving and fun to me. Something I've been missing for the last 7 years.

NSX here I come! And there I will most likely stay for a very very long time! Carefree hours of driving! Yipee, like the Gini set free after 3 wishes- free!

Tim
Atlanta