The "soul" of the NSX as compared to others

[tbromley]

Hi Guys,

I was talking to a buddy of mine and fellow Porsche owner, which I've been for years but not currently and he mentioned something to me in his email today. He's an Africaner in SA and owns an SC Targa 911.

We've been talking a long time and he's a good buddy; my last email to him was about my switching car marques. I told him of my new idea to buy and NSX as the answer to all my Porsche woes of the past for a better future. I extolled the virtures of the NSX, handling, style, modern speed, all this with super reliablility!!! I talked about how they were basically handbuilt in one plant in Japan where they only put out 25 per day max.

His reply threw me off a little which I will pass on to you guys here. The comment was that there are surely other cars than Porsche and he named off a host Evo, WRXSTI, NSX, GT-R, Zs, etc and threw all the Japanese sporty cars into one big heap and said that sure they're fast and everything we've all hear but they lack one big thing - SOUL? Soul, I say, mmmmm, since I haven't owned one yet but have had several 911s and Bimmers, and Z cars (nissan 240, and 280z) I can kind of understand that illusive hard to quantify SOUL when compared to Datsun Z cars, but I'm really at a loss about the NSX cause I haven't owned one.

What say you guys that have owned both 911s and NSXs and all the others you've had????

This I'd love to hear from you all! Thanks, btw this hasn't changed my desire to own an NSX a bit. I'm already convinced but this may be an interesting thread to see what all you NSX guys think about SOUL!

Tim
Atlanta

 

[oldnews]

Put a 40 of malt liquor, collard greens and a BBQ sandwich in the front seat and take a picture. More soul than a Seattle cracker could handle.

 

[clr1024]

You should do a search. This has been discussed. Many a car "enthusiast" claims the NSX has no soul...if soul means being finnicky and unreliable and stupidly expensive to repair then I am just fine with that!

Keep in mind that Gordon Murray used many design points on the NSX to relate to the McClaren F1, he owned one for several years too....Ask your buddy if he thinks the Mclaren F1 has soul?

 

[Tytus]

Just drive one and you will know. As a matter of fact if you just sit in one and look out the winshield, you will know, but if you drive it you will know for sure. He probably has no experience with an NSX so he makes an esoteric statement that cannot be easily quantified, but to the un innitiated, can be felt when experienced, especially in this car.

Find one and then you tell us what you felt.

Good luck,

Tytus

 

[tbromley]

Hey Guys,

I think that old news said it well. Man that was funny. I get it, but I don't think South Africans get "soul food" and now I'm beginning to wonder about him! Really he's a nice guy. It seems to me the last time I thought about sports cars again - 6 years ago, I found something on this "soul" concept.

Don't mean to russle any feathers here guys. I just wanted to see what your general reply would be. I imagine that there will be other posts to this "question of soul".

I thank you guys for chiming in so quickly. Say does anyone know how many guys post here or what the membership is to Prime. It's gotta be damn active! To get all this in just a few minutes.

Anyway, to tell you the truth I thought my old first year model 240Z had soul. Porsche doen't have a corner on soul.

One of you guys said has he sat in one or driven one - no is the answer. I think like you guys a seat in one and a drive in one would change his perception.

Tim

 

[usafdarkhorse]

Owned a 76 Z, then sold the car and bought an NSX, and now I'm back in a 75 Z with a turbo motor swap.

It's hard to beat a Z car as far as soul ( as you say your 240Z had alot ) :wink:

Honestly, I felt that my old Z and current Z have more character than the NSX I owned. The NSX is a brutally reliable, dependable, and stunning vehicle. There's no mistaking how smooth the car handles and the superiority of the tranny ( I'm serious ), but it's so mathematical and methodical that it's almost uneventful ( in a good way...not BAD eventful ). The NSX is almost TOO nice in the interior department to really feel like you were driving a raw sports machine.

The concept of soul also often comes with an interpretation of racing history. Porsche has been racing the 911 for forever. Nissan with their Datsun Z was Trans Am champ every year the S30Z competed. Though the NSX was based off what Honda learned in F1 and became an amazing car (beating out Ferrari's 348), let's face it, the NSX had a pretty dismal racing career with a few showings in Le Mans, some success with the #42 Comptech NSX, and was mostly eclipsed by Toyota and Nissan within JGTC ( now SuperGT ). Not to say it wasn't a great car. It was. If you want sure-fire soul with Honda, go back to the roots of the company: motorcycles.

To me, soul is a mid to late 70's 911 SC, not a 2001 Carrera

 

[Shaun Ray]

Soul and pedigree might be interchangeable. Personally, when I think of Honda, it goes back to the first Civic I saw in the mid-70's. One look under the hood and all those hoses and wires so expertly routed indicated this was no regular car I'd ever seen. However, such a car did not extol power or beauty....just a very cleaver design and execution.

As for the soul of an NSX, I'm sure some will find traces back to a good racing heritage, but as for me....when you are driving around in an NSX (especially on a nice day with the top off) the experience is simply "food for the soul". The NSX provides that experience like no other car I've been in.

And not to knock the Porsche, but I've been in a 911 turbo once and although it is fast, I felt like I was sitting in a VW beetle. Obviously, not the same car but that was my impression - so for what it's worth - that is the soul that spoke to me on that ride.

I wouldn't put much effort into finding the soul of an NSX. Just drive one (or more) and you'll either get it, or you won't. The rest really doesn't matter. It's great that we have so many cars to choose from!

Good luck with your search!

 

[bfrank1972]

I've driven:
F360
GT3 RS
1973 911S
993

and plenty of other cars that people will tell you have 'soul'. Many aircooled guys will tell you the 996TT has lost its 'soul'. People will try to tell you all sorts of crap. You know lots of facts about the NSX, you know it's a good car. Only person who can tell ya if you like the NSX and if it has 'soul' or not is you Try to find one in your area and drive it.

 

[BD]

It's a piece of metal!!! It has no soul!!!

As for Pedigree, Honda has a much longer racing pedigree than Porsche will ever have. In fact, Honda probably rank second in that field.

 

[whiteNSXs]

Cars have no soul, period. I have been trying to talk to my car while I was sleeping. There was no answer. Only car snobs/idiots talk about "soul" since they really don't know what they are talking about.
My first Porsche was a 1980 911 sc Targa. The NSX beats the hell out of that 911sc while looking mighty good doing so. My 911sc had bad chain tensioners, airbox, tranny, warped/cracked dash, fading steering wheel, leaky oil returning tubes, and many other soul-like glitches that pissed me off.
My current 1989 911 cab is much better than the 911sc. Comparing to the NSX, the cab is a piece of shit.
Steve

 

[usafdarkhorse]

No tell us how you really feel :tongue:

 

[Ponyboy]

Cars have no soul? Tell that to these guys?

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[usafdarkhorse]

Interpretation of soul probably also has alot to do with the age ( or perceived age ) of the car in question.

Which ( in your opinion ) has more soul?

240Z or 350Z?

I already threw out the old Porsche vs new Porsche comparison.

I'd wager that as these cars get older, more perceived soul will be inherent. The thing is that the NSX doesn't actually LOOK that old despite the fact that some are turning 19 yr old this year.

 

[clr1024]

Interpretation of soul probably also has alot to do with the age ( or perceived age ) of the car in question.
.

One could argue that way but many newer F-Car owners 355, 360, 430 , Lambo owners etc will say the same thing.. the NSX has no soul...

However there are many enthusiasts that readily accept what the NSX did for the exotic/supercar market...raise it to a whole new level with regards to reliability and driveability.

 

[tbromley]

Excellent comments by everyone. I like several points that soul is a perception related to age, but I'd say history too. Porsche has done a lot with the mystique of the marque and it's old, broke new ground, put the engine in the wrong place and it still wins.

So I'd agree with that. There was another question about which Z had more soul the 240Z or the 350 Z , well here again I guess the deal about age has entered into it and with that I'd definitely say the 240Z has more soul even though it's not as technically good. There was an air of originality and class about the 240 that is way lost in the 350 for sure. But does the marque have soul in the overall sense based on roots and heritage, that's a good question and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

As to whether the racing heritage is deeper with Honda than Porsche, well, I'm not going along with that and I'm not sure where that comment is coming from since the Porsche has been much more of a winner of races over the long haul and racing heritage is in my humble opinion weighing heavier on the side of Porsche. A lot of it is advertising too. Porsche definitely has a mystique about it that few others, other than Ferarri can match or Alfa Romero. Even the Aston Martin and BMW and Mercedes, well, those are no brainers and I don't think that Honda is really mentioned in the same class here but only historcally.

Honda's NSX is part of a more modern age and rightly so and it's got a soul all it's own, this really hasn't got to do with a machine having soul so much is it's perhaps the design and designers that make it a reality. The soul of Honda is still growing, especially in the world of racing.

It's got soul guys and it's gaining more and more as folks perhaps discover it as an all around statement and practice at perfecting the sports car. The NSX is the peace to resistance of the Japanese sports car world in my opinion of production vehicles. Even though some may say that the S2000 is also a reflection of that as well and that's ok too. It's the complete package that the Japanese have been able to muster isn't it? Not only can they produce a great sports car but it's really and truly super reliable and easy to drive. That's quite a feat in itself. So - does Honda have soul, well, hell yes. It's different and the Japanese are still fledglings in a way to the whole deal of racing and real great sports cars. The NSX unlike many Japanese cars is beautiful. I can't say that about too many of them. The 240Z, perhaps it is as well, I always loved looking out the rear view mirror at that curve coming off the roof to the fender truly beautiful. How about the Toyota 2000 GT? I'm sure you all have your favorite parts of the NSX when you look at it. I've always thought the interior was really cool. It fits! It looks to me like you slip into it. The view out the front is something I'm really looking forward to experiencing first hand.

So I believe this type of argument or discussion, is so subjective and there isn't an end all answer to it. All cars have a soul some just more realized than others. Honda is surely on it's way to a lasting place in history, Acura is doing well in racing too.

That would be my perspective.

Great stuff. Guys, I just want to add a little something, I love to talk about cars and the journey to ownership is actually sometimes better than actually owning. It's the search, discovery, and finally the purchase, then it's different. It's then about the driving and the owning and the maintaining. So there is many times more mystique generated for me when I'm discovering things about a particular car as well as tid bits from the owners of them here on this site. I really enjoy all this and why not!

 

[R13]

Can cars develop figurative "souls" over time? Will someone be talking about how soulful a 996 is 20 years from now?

My definition of "lacking soul" is anything that is committee designed to not offend anyones tastes, not polarize opinion about it, and cater to the widest audience. I don't think the NSX fits that description.

No, it isn't as idiosyncratic as an old british car, nor is it as pragmatically interesting as an air cooled porsche, or as much of an "event" to drive as many (but not all) Ferraris, but it the context of the culture that spawned it, it makes perfect sense.

With the NSX, you get out what you put in, as opposed to an exponential return. I've driven an '86 Testarossa, for instance, down the road at modest speeds on several occasions. That car will turn a dull commute into a notable event for the day. A dull commute in my NSX is still pretty dull if I'm honest. Pick the pace up a little though, up a mountain, or on a track, and the quality-of-experience gap narrows significantly IMHO.

Ok, I'm spent. That's about as philosophical as I get. I think I need to go shoot something or get in a fight now to balance things out.

 

[stuntman]

I understand what your buddy is saying. I wouldn't use the word "soul" but rather "German feel". I agree that most Japanese cars feel Japanesey and dont have the proper weighted feel in the right areas like most German cars do.

As a whole, most Japanese cars have poor pedal layouts, poor clutch and brake pedal feel as well as a poor throttle feel. German cars seem to have a nice weight/resistance to them. I would also say short of a miata, S2K, NSX, GTR (R34), most Japanese cars have a poor shifting feel.

*Nice little note: The NSX's transmission/shifter feel was used as the benchmark in the development of the Ford GT. -Can we add that to the NSX wiki/factoid list?

Before I was an NSX owner, I felt that the NSX was one of the least "Japanesey" cars out there. Both the clutch and brake pedal feel were far better than many other Japanese cars, but the throttle had some room for improvement. The manual steering of the NSX was also superb. I must say that the previous (not brand new) Acura TSX had a German-esque pedal layout and feel, but not in the shifter.

Feel is subjective, please dont be offended by any of these comments but rather welcome to discuss them.

 

[Ski_Banker]

"Soul" in an automobile = quirky, usually irritating, sh*t that you don't appreciate until after you've sold the vehicle.

F-cars, Lambos, Porsches, BMWs -- yeah, they all have more soul than an NSX. That's why I drive an NSX, every day, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[PhiAlpha44]

My car has plenty of soul. I feel it every time I turn the key and watch the needles come alive.

 

[docjohn]

For our younger members who might not have ever heard of this whole "soul" thing,soul has been used to humanize cars typicaly to soften weakness in cars such as mechanical/electrical flaws/unreliability.This was often used for sports cars that performed great ,sounded great ,for only brief moments in the owners life:wink:Seems that the term soul has also drifted to include what stuntman describes as "feel" .Clearly clutch/steering/brake/gas pedal feel is different/specific for most manufacturers.I 'm with whitensxs ,just machines:redface:

 

[Sean Firth]

For our younger members who might not have ever heard of this whole "soul" thing,soul has been used to humanize cars typicaly to soften weakness in cars such as mechanical/electrical flaws/unreliability.This was often used for sports cars that performed great ,sounded great ,for only brief moments in the owners life:wink:Seems that the term soul has also drifted to include what stuntman describes as "feel" .Clearly clutch/steering/brake/gas pedal feel is different/specific for most manufacturers.I 'm with whitensxs ,just machines:redface:

Agreed, to me giving a car "soul" is akin to giving a house "Character". Houses having character are more often than not poorly maintained, past their prime and totally eclipsed in some, if not all of the major areas.

When I was searching for our current house, my wife and I looked at a number of different properties with our estate agent, and the word "Character" was only bandied about when we found something was unsatisfactory. "Oh, the foundation is falling apart, that just adds character." "Oh, the family of squirrels on the main floor en suite, they're just there for character."

Oddly enough, we used the real estate agent to sell our condo, and had our house built to our standards-very carefully avoiding anything that could be compared to being soulful. This previous statement now brings me full circle-why would I want a car that I have to tinker on through the week just to go for a rip on the weekend? Don't get me wrong, I like to turn my own wrenches, but I prefer it to be on my terms; certainly not from necessity.

Let's be real here, almost anyone on the board could purchase most 996's, Testarossa's, or even 355's and 360's. Some of us have, some of us will, and some of us look at the TCO and think that the extra money is better spent elsewhere. This is why I think the majority of us like the NSX, the combination of moderate power, amazing ergonomics, head turning looks and reasonable maintenance costs keep us coming back for more.

Well, that was longer than I anticipated.:redface:

 

[soloracer951]

It's a piece of metal!!! It has no soul!!!

As for Pedigree, Honda has a much longer racing pedigree than Porsche will ever have. In fact, Honda probably rank second in that field.

So not true. Porsche has been racing since 1948. Honda may have had some success in F1 in the late 80's, etc. but will not come even close to the race pedigree and history that Porsche has. Hell, Porsche still makes a factory built race car that anyone can order (GT3 RSR). Take a look at this:

http://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsandracing/motorsport/philosophy/history/victories/

Honda doesn't even come close to second. Maybe 100th.

Porsche products count 28,000 combined victories in various forms of motorsport over the 70 year history of the company. No other brand is even close to those numbers.

 

[docjohn]

Not 1948 but still impressive http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history.html

 

[soloracer951]

Not 1948 but still impressive http://www.vf750fd.com/Joep_Kortekaas/honda_race_history.html

Nice, but we are talking 4 wheels, not 2. Apples and oranges. It wouldn't matter anyway because even if you included bikes - which Porsche doesn't make - Honda still would not be close.

PS. Even in the 2 wheeled world Honda may not be #1 when it comes to racing history. Ducati for one might rank higher.

 

[soloracer951]

http://automobiletalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=635

In regards to soul, I guess the way I would describe it for a sports car is excitement. Does the car excite you? In this regard the civility of the NSX works against it. The old 911's with their tail happy handling and flat six wail had it in spades. Ferrari's have it too for the same reasons. Doesn't mean they are better/faster cars though. Just different. When the new electric cars come out I believe all us motorheads will miss the smell of gasoline, the snarl of a powerful engine and talk about how the new cars don't have the same "soul" that they used to.