All right guys. I spoke to Ken via PMs to clarify some issues. I now better understand where Ken is coming from on this issue, and I have a better understanding of the issue itself as a result of this exchange.
Let me preface my comments so you know my level of knowledge. I only watched one interview with Mel Gibson prior to watching the movie itself. Actually, I did not even watch the entire interview as I believe I caught it in the middle. Thus, I did not personally see any of his bad remarks.
Did Mel Gibson make anti-Semitic remarks in other interview?
I have no clue. If Ken is saying he did, then I have no doubt that those things were said. Mel Gibson should be ashamed of himself for using despicable marketing tactics . I rank such tactics as going way beyond other such tactics we have seen (Britney and Madonna wiggling their tongues in each others mouth
, and Janet Jackson's boobie flying out).
Thus, I think Mel Gibson should be chastised for his remarks.
Let us take this one more step though. Let us...go see the movie.
Is the movie laced with Mel Gibson's apparent hatred for Jews?
This movie is going to be viewed by
millions of people. Is the message in the movie going to poison their minds?
No. As other posters have mentioned, the only folks who will walk out of this movie with some sort anti-Semitic thoughts are the folks that walked in to the movie with anti-Semitic thoughts...
Here is where I became a bit confused though. I thought Ken was calling out the content of a movie he had never seen This angered me because I think you should see the movie to make those kind of comments. ken was talking about everything external to the movie. That is my mistake and I see that others have made the same mistake as well. After rereading Ken's posts, he does make this clear. Again, my mistake. I do not think I am the only one one this thread who has misinterpreted what others have said.
Ken is right. There is a good deal of anti-Semitic ideas circulating about this movie. I believe that folks who were involved with this movie may harbor some anti Semitic feelings. I, however, feel those thoughts do not exist in the minds of the those who have posted on this very thread. I also do not think these thoughts exist in the movie itself (again we must seperate these issues. More on that later).
It is unfortunate that we see a growing trend of Hollywood folks doing more and more to shock folks for the free pub. It is easy to see why this is happening. There are four or more news channels that are literally running 24-7. The media loves to latch on to a fight. Folks looking for pub are taking major advantage of that. If you want to see the latest in this type of behavior, just look at this week’s news concerning Dick Clarke's new book. I am not saying that his book should not be read or that he is a liar...but look at the fricking timing! He releases it just days before the 9-11 commission. He needs to get flogged right along side of Mel Gibson for those shady tactics.
I think that much of the controversy that surrounded this movie before it was released centered around peoples fears that this movie may cast a negative light on Jews. As I understand it "Passion Plays" were used in this manner by bigots in the old days. As has been mentioned by folks on this board who have seen the movie, that is not the case with this movie. In fact, this movie espouses forgiveness, not hatred. For those of us who
saw the movie, we know that people were crying and holding hands after the movie, not fighting or scheming. People leave this movie sad, not angry.
Ken, I am sorry I said that Mr. Rich’s article is "tripe". I should probably use a less harsh word to describe it as I think he does make some valid points. Said points should be looked at critically. If we believe what Mr. Rich is saying then I think we should place Gibson right next to Eminem, Dick Clarke, and Madonna for using distasteful marketing tactics to sell their products. As I mentioned before, this is a growing trend and I think it is very bad for our country. Furthermore, I think it most definitely merits discussion
One last note. This is an internet forum. As many of you know, things are said and done on forums that are misinterpreted as text does not always translate as well as a face to face conversation. Thus, we need to make sure that we do not label folks with terms such as "prejudice" until we have all of the facts and we clearly understand that person's viewpoint. I think this last point is extremely important with regards to this particular forum. The membership on this forum is not very large in general. You can then whittle it down even further if you exclude non-owners-->then include folks only the folks who are members of the NSXCA who are active participants. The point I am trying to make is that many folks on this forum are not nameless, faceless handles to me. I look forward to meeting them in real life so I think we should not jump to conclusions about folks.
Allow me to take it one step further and say that there are people on this thread who I have never met in real life who I would be happy to let stay at my estate (two bedroom apt) should they be coming through town. I would let said people stay in the guest quarters (couch in the living room). Those people are free to gorge themselves on my cuisine (Marie Calendars frozen dinners), and my extensive collection of fine American spirits (Bud light, and Shiner bock).
Again, many of us have been on this forum for multiple years and have logged hundreds and thousands of posts here. We have also met each other or will meet each other in the flesh. Let us keep this in perspective when conversing.
Ken, I took a slight issue with you because you are the only one who has not seen the movie and are making comments on it. My intentions were...to get you to see the darn movie! I have noticed a giant trend. That trend is that folks have this preconceived notion about how the movie is going to be before they see it. Once they see it, they see that their preconceived notions were wrong. I only wished you would go through the same experience. I misinterpreted what you wanted to talk about with regards to this film and I will illustrate what I mean here shortly.
Now, if what Mr.Rich has said about Mel Gibson's movie promotion tactics is true, we need to think about that and talk about that because that is the type of behavior we should not condone.
Let me separate the issues here that I see on this thread so that people don't keep mixing them up (definitely including me!!) All the issues below are fair game with regards to the movie and I think they are all important.
1. The movie itself- A very well done movie with high marks in all of the aspects that people grade movies on. (my opinion)
2. Mel Gibson - If he has made derisive and insensitive remarks in public then he has labeled himself. If he actually believes in what he says then we need to hope that those feelings do bleed over in to his movies (which are a huge vehicle for spreading ideas and opinions throughout the world. This is particularly important to us U.S folks as Hollywood movies are one of our biggest exports and sadly, people judge us by those very movies).
3. Mel Gibson's promotional tactics- If what Mr. Rich is saying is true, Gibson is shamefully following the increasing trend of pushing buttons and shocking people for free pub (ala Eminem). This tactic is cheap and I hope we see less of it as I think it is extremely damaging to our culture.
At the very least, let us not get too personal for the sake of the forum. We are all guilty of it from time to time but we do need to keep it in check. I would hate for Lud to close out this thread because these things are important to talk about. However, I would prefer it that the thread gets locked out than for labels and names to be flung about. I would hate for those names to cause us to be uncomfortable around each other in real life. After all, this forum is to exchange ideas/information, and to bring owners and enthusiasts of an extremely rare car together, not drive us apart...
Thanks for reading my post guys. I put a lot of thought and time in to this post. I would also like to mention that this post is my 500th post. Give me a couple more decades and I will catch up with Ken
.
Let me preface my comments so you know my level of knowledge. I only watched one interview with Mel Gibson prior to watching the movie itself. Actually, I did not even watch the entire interview as I believe I caught it in the middle. Thus, I did not personally see any of his bad remarks.
Did Mel Gibson make anti-Semitic remarks in other interview?
I have no clue. If Ken is saying he did, then I have no doubt that those things were said. Mel Gibson should be ashamed of himself for using despicable marketing tactics . I rank such tactics as going way beyond other such tactics we have seen (Britney and Madonna wiggling their tongues in each others mouth
, and Janet Jackson's boobie flying out). Thus, I think Mel Gibson should be chastised for his remarks.
Let us take this one more step though. Let us...go see the movie.
Is the movie laced with Mel Gibson's apparent hatred for Jews?
This movie is going to be viewed by
millions of people. Is the message in the movie going to poison their minds?
No. As other posters have mentioned, the only folks who will walk out of this movie with some sort anti-Semitic thoughts are the folks that walked in to the movie with anti-Semitic thoughts...
Here is where I became a bit confused though. I thought Ken was calling out the content of a movie he had never seen This angered me because I think you should see the movie to make those kind of comments. ken was talking about everything external to the movie. That is my mistake and I see that others have made the same mistake as well. After rereading Ken's posts, he does make this clear. Again, my mistake. I do not think I am the only one one this thread who has misinterpreted what others have said.
Ken is right. There is a good deal of anti-Semitic ideas circulating about this movie. I believe that folks who were involved with this movie may harbor some anti Semitic feelings. I, however, feel those thoughts do not exist in the minds of the those who have posted on this very thread. I also do not think these thoughts exist in the movie itself (again we must seperate these issues. More on that later).
It is unfortunate that we see a growing trend of Hollywood folks doing more and more to shock folks for the free pub. It is easy to see why this is happening. There are four or more news channels that are literally running 24-7. The media loves to latch on to a fight. Folks looking for pub are taking major advantage of that. If you want to see the latest in this type of behavior, just look at this week’s news concerning Dick Clarke's new book. I am not saying that his book should not be read or that he is a liar...but look at the fricking timing! He releases it just days before the 9-11 commission. He needs to get flogged right along side of Mel Gibson for those shady tactics.
I think that much of the controversy that surrounded this movie before it was released centered around peoples fears that this movie may cast a negative light on Jews. As I understand it "Passion Plays" were used in this manner by bigots in the old days. As has been mentioned by folks on this board who have seen the movie, that is not the case with this movie. In fact, this movie espouses forgiveness, not hatred. For those of us who
saw the movie, we know that people were crying and holding hands after the movie, not fighting or scheming. People leave this movie sad, not angry.
Ken, I am sorry I said that Mr. Rich’s article is "tripe". I should probably use a less harsh word to describe it as I think he does make some valid points. Said points should be looked at critically. If we believe what Mr. Rich is saying then I think we should place Gibson right next to Eminem, Dick Clarke, and Madonna for using distasteful marketing tactics to sell their products. As I mentioned before, this is a growing trend and I think it is very bad for our country. Furthermore, I think it most definitely merits discussion
One last note. This is an internet forum. As many of you know, things are said and done on forums that are misinterpreted as text does not always translate as well as a face to face conversation. Thus, we need to make sure that we do not label folks with terms such as "prejudice" until we have all of the facts and we clearly understand that person's viewpoint. I think this last point is extremely important with regards to this particular forum. The membership on this forum is not very large in general. You can then whittle it down even further if you exclude non-owners-->then include folks only the folks who are members of the NSXCA who are active participants. The point I am trying to make is that many folks on this forum are not nameless, faceless handles to me. I look forward to meeting them in real life so I think we should not jump to conclusions about folks.
Allow me to take it one step further and say that there are people on this thread who I have never met in real life who I would be happy to let stay at my estate (two bedroom apt) should they be coming through town. I would let said people stay in the guest quarters (couch in the living room). Those people are free to gorge themselves on my cuisine (Marie Calendars frozen dinners), and my extensive collection of fine American spirits (Bud light, and Shiner bock).
Again, many of us have been on this forum for multiple years and have logged hundreds and thousands of posts here. We have also met each other or will meet each other in the flesh. Let us keep this in perspective when conversing.
Ken, I took a slight issue with you because you are the only one who has not seen the movie and are making comments on it. My intentions were...to get you to see the darn movie! I have noticed a giant trend. That trend is that folks have this preconceived notion about how the movie is going to be before they see it. Once they see it, they see that their preconceived notions were wrong. I only wished you would go through the same experience. I misinterpreted what you wanted to talk about with regards to this film and I will illustrate what I mean here shortly.
Now, if what Mr.Rich has said about Mel Gibson's movie promotion tactics is true, we need to think about that and talk about that because that is the type of behavior we should not condone.
Let me separate the issues here that I see on this thread so that people don't keep mixing them up (definitely including me!!) All the issues below are fair game with regards to the movie and I think they are all important.
1. The movie itself- A very well done movie with high marks in all of the aspects that people grade movies on. (my opinion)
2. Mel Gibson - If he has made derisive and insensitive remarks in public then he has labeled himself. If he actually believes in what he says then we need to hope that those feelings do bleed over in to his movies (which are a huge vehicle for spreading ideas and opinions throughout the world. This is particularly important to us U.S folks as Hollywood movies are one of our biggest exports and sadly, people judge us by those very movies).
3. Mel Gibson's promotional tactics- If what Mr. Rich is saying is true, Gibson is shamefully following the increasing trend of pushing buttons and shocking people for free pub (ala Eminem). This tactic is cheap and I hope we see less of it as I think it is extremely damaging to our culture.
At the very least, let us not get too personal for the sake of the forum. We are all guilty of it from time to time but we do need to keep it in check. I would hate for Lud to close out this thread because these things are important to talk about. However, I would prefer it that the thread gets locked out than for labels and names to be flung about. I would hate for those names to cause us to be uncomfortable around each other in real life. After all, this forum is to exchange ideas/information, and to bring owners and enthusiasts of an extremely rare car together, not drive us apart...
Thanks for reading my post guys. I put a lot of thought and time in to this post. I would also like to mention that this post is my 500th post. Give me a couple more decades and I will catch up with Ken
.
